Incognito - Beta, not ILI

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

So you're saying because she makes arguments from authority, she's Beta Rational? Try again, amigo.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[munenori2]

So if Alphas and Betas are merry, and merry types value experience and seniority, and on the converse serious Gammas and Deltas value knowledge and how-to, are you implying that organizations that are heavily Alpha or Beta will tend to want to have older hands at the top while Gamma and Delta are more willing to give young turks shots at leading?

[Jarno]

Incognito is an ILI imo.

[Logos]

I regret that I have to specify you that I'm not, as long as it's obvious in the text. What you said means: I assert that arguing from authority is a sufficient condition to be a Beta rational. Rationality is not a final conclusion of mine, even. It is an opinion based on the observation that her Judging function is used as a driving force - base function.

The scale to measure authority she uses implies she's Merry, my only new assertion. Experience, seniority vs. knowledge, study, howto. Maybe you should understand this dichotomy first.

From strong to weak I consider: Beta, Fe, Rational, with Beta being my only current clear assertion.

I'm not as familiar with this part as I perhaps should be. Would you mind elaborating on this? I am sure it would be of help to not just me.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

Ephemeros I think your argument is pretty facile. I don't think that deferring to hierarchies and experience is NECESSARILY indicative of a Merry type. I don't really have an opinion on incognito's type, but I object to your methodology here.

[Jarno]

@Jarno: arguments or get out.

I don't know if this counts, but I guess you've had these experiences too.

You know someones selftyping and with that in the back of your mind you read that person's posts. Sometimes you get the feeling, this aint right, he's another type. And sometimes you get the feeling, their type is right, everything fits. With incognito...everything fits.

If this argument is too weak, than I want to add, if you read her sentences, they have the usual flow of an INTp-ni type. I'm always jalous about it, since it has a better flow/pattern then my own writing style. I've had this exact experience with reading posts of crazedrat, aixelsyd and incognito.

There's also just nothing that contradicts ILI for incognito, as I see it currently. Simply nothing that stands out that seems totally un-ILI

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

No, actually I don't identify with it at all; if anything that would put me quite squarely in the Serious half of the dichotomy

[Wynch]

I think this thread just made my day. But on a more serious note:

How is this in any way consistent? Aren't experience and expertise often the same thing? Are you saying the difference between Serious and Merry is that Serious believes that expertise comes from knowledge building through massive amounts of study/observation/reading while Merry believes that expertise comes from hands on/experience/practice? Isn't that pretty much counter-intuitive to all IXTjs, who seem incredibly focused on knowledge-building? Not to mention SLIs, most of which would laugh in your face if you tried to suggest that the best way to be an expert is to knowledge/fact gather.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Wynch]

I don't know about other IxTjs but I'm not interested in building a knowledge bank of facts so much as delving deep into where I might be able to find new links between things ... basically ephemeros' idea of first-hand experimentation is more appealing to me and the idea of factual knowledge building is of secondary importance.

I don't think knowedge-building and fact gathering are really the same thing. Fact gathering is something I see happening with Ni egos more than any other type. Every single IXI I've known has been an encyclopedia on something.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Wynch]

Yeah, frigging language and it's contexts, lol. Everything means something different to everyone.

I started clarifying the difference I'm noting, but I'm realizing that I'm basically describing Ni/Se vs Si/Ne.

There's something I was trying to get at. I know what it is in my head. I'm having difficulty expressing it in writing, lol.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Wynch]

@mn0good and Carla: you are talking about different things. Carla is talking about her Judging type (on the topic), while mn0good about perceiving.

Vero, we were talking about how you do things (abilities at work, who does the job well), not how we perceive the new ones. You could be right about Ni gathering facts, but that's something different, as we're talking about the Merry/Serious dichotomy.

lol, you're not saying anything that I didn't just say.

I'm going to try to figure out what it was about merry/serious I was trying to say then I'll get back to this.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Wynch]

Not always in a specific field, though many IXIs seem to latch on to a subject and dedicate a large amount of fact gathering there.

My mother is definitely a researcher. If she's interested in something, she researches it TO DEATH. I will talk to her about something and she almost always sends me an email filled with links and fact pages and comparisons.

Sidenote: You will never convince me my mother is an Fe ego and certainly not Fe base. She is absolutely awful with understanding how she impacts a mood or the dynamic of an emotional space. It's pretty clear to people that she is not comfortable with social spaces and doesn't really know what to do with them. I mean, she can socialize well enough and she's not a complete hermit, but the nuances of mood between people and how they're impacted seem to escape her frequently.

Oh, good example of this. There's some tension between my boyfriend and my room mate. When my mom came down to Ottawa and wanted to go to lunch she invited my best friend, my boyfriend (who she was meeting for the first time) and my roomie to come as well. I didn't pass the invite along to my roomie because I knew my mom would want to spend time chatting with my boyfriend in what was obviously a "meet the parents" moment. This would make my roomie uncomfortable, which would make it awkward for the whole group, so I thought it best that he didn't come. However, when my mom realized that my roomie hadn't been invited, she invited him herself. Then with him still in hearing distance she starts asking me why I didn't pass her invite along to him. Most people would think it's obvious that there's a reason and that I wouldn't want my roomie to hear it, but my mom kept pushing the subject even when I tried to tell her in a low voice that I would explain later. The second we're alone, she pushed it again and I explained the tension between my boyfriend and my roomie, and she still didn't seem to understand why the tension would come out at this lunch.

P.S. I don't think my mom will have a chance to discuss this until tomorrow sometime. She's out of town for the weekend.

[Wynch]

"... in the field", I'd add.
Anyway, do you think this applies to your mother as well?

Edit: and no, I don't agree it applies to IEIs. They are focused on a narrow range of interests, even in one field.

Yeah, I agree that there's a distinction between ILIs and IEIs.

Perhaps a contrast: My IEI roomie from last year was an encyclopedia on film/books/music/videogames. He was an enormous culture snob and knew an extraordinary amount about everything on the subject. On the other hand, my mom (who I still believe is ILI) picks up information on a variety of interests that seem to change, but once something catches her interest she researches and fact-gathers indefinitely.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Wynch]

I don't find those lists of vocabulary in any way helpful to your point. Also, I think her persistence was more Fi-oriented in that she was concerned that by not talking to my room mate I had created the impression that SHE had chosen not to invite him. She was concerned with making her intentions clear, not with understanding the situation.

Question for you: When you talk about descriptions of types, are you talking about the descriptions on wikisocion?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Gilly]

Holy shit ephemeros, you really dug up the goods on me However I could find many more instances than that if I dug through and showed people why what they were doing was ineffectual in terms of an approach to typing.

[Wynch]

Now really, do you understand the difference between Ti/Fe and Te/Fi valuings? I said "understand", not "know", because there's no definition for them, but understand how they apply in behavior/thinking. We've talked about them a lot on the forum, although it seems some of you don't make the difference.
There's no point in arguing using justifications we don't agree from the beginning, I'm sorry. You either agree or have objections to my final conclusions, I'm not returning to the basics.

I'm talking about her motivation, not challenging your definitions. While talking to me she was concerned that my room mate thought that she had invited others and not him. That was why she was persistent in clarifying the situation.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request