Are Beta types very interested in self-development?

[jewels]

Does anyone have thoughts on if Betas are more interested in self-development? I'm wondering because I've noticed that many of my clients have been Betas. (I'm a business and relationships coach).

Is it something Betas are naturally interested in, because of the quadra values of strength, power, etc. Or is it just a fluke? It seems the majority are ESTps. Isn't it odd that I haven't attracted more Deltas? or Alphas or Gammas?

And of course this is only people I typed after several months working together (I naturally just type everyone after a while like most of us here).

Currently I have (all Betas except for 1):
ESTp (Ti)
ESTp (Se)
ESTp (Se)
ISTj
one ENFj I know just asked for a consultation
one ENFp (Fi)

In the past:
(all betas except for 2)
INFp
ESTp
ISTj
ISTj

ESFj
ESFp

The rest I'm unsure of their type.

2) Also strange...I've noticed when online dating that the vast majority of guys who contact me are ENTps or ESTps. Also confused by this one.

Ideas?

Am I not coming across as ENFp? Or is socionics just random as far as attracting people? I would assume I'd be attracting people from my own quadra, etc. Or, someone said I might be an enneagram 7w8...maybe the 8-ish-ness could be a factor?

[Brilliand]

A business and relationships coach isn't going to pick up people looking for all forms of self-development. My guess is that mainly Alphas and Betas will be having trouble with business and relationships ( and ), and Alphas just don't want to visit a coach of any sort.

As for the guys on the dating site... I can see why those particular types would be liable to find the perfect woman by searching through a bunch of them, although I can't say I would have predicted that. Incidentally, since those decisive extroverts are going after you, you're probably rather statically beautiful - at least in the picture you have up. Perhaps you could change it to something showing more beauty - something enjoyable, as opposed to stunning. Of course, I haven't seen your picture... and even if I did, I'd say an ego type would be better equipped to help you improve it.

[jewels]

A business and relationships coach isn't going to pick up people looking for all forms of self-development. My guess is that mainly Alphas and Betas will be having trouble with business and relationships ( and ), and Alphas just don't want to visit a coach of any sort.

As for the guys on the dating site... I can see why those particular types would be liable to find the perfect woman by searching through a bunch of them, although I can't say I would have predicted that. Incidentally, since those decisive extroverts are going after you, you're probably rather statically beautiful - at least in the picture you have up. Perhaps you could change it to something showing more beauty - something enjoyable, as opposed to stunning. Of course, I haven't seen your picture... and even if I did, I'd say an ego type would be better equipped to help you improve it.

Very interesting. I wondered if it was something like that...as far as some quadras not wanting to have a coach, etc. I'll have to think about that. These clients didn't seem weak in business/relationships to me (the ESTps in particular tend to rock at business/entrepreneurship/CEO stuff etc)...but maybe they felt more comfortable seeking out a coach because of some reason I'm unsure of. I admit I tend to not want "help" with things, despite being a coach myself which is kinda weird.

I also sorta of figured ESTps and ENTps would be pretty proactive about searching and probably contact more girls online. I would imagine they'd contact tons of girls, whether or not they were "stunning" -- though I'd like to blame it on that of course! I wish. You have a point about changing to a Si-friendly pic...hadn't thought of that, but thanks! Very helpful post.

[JWC3]

I like to think or say to myself that I dedicate myself to a live of constant self improvement. Whatever that self-improvement means. That can mean actually learning something as opposed to copying off a friend, working out more, or just learning from my mistakes.

Obviously this isn't true in times of Stagnation, or what I like to call supreme boredom AKA Summer.

EDIT: Also yes, I do enjoy reading Self improvement books, doesn't really matter what the topic of improvement is so Long as it's something I'm involved in. The the topics I read (or have read) the most though in regards to self-improvement are Relationship books, body building books and sex-technique/improvement books.

[Warlord]

I think in generally speaking SeTi's are very interested in improving themselves. But I don't know what this self-improvement consists of. There probably are some things that are labeled as self-improvement, that SeTi's probably find to be ridicilous.

I also sorta of figured ESTps and ENTps would be pretty proactive about searching and probably contact more girls online. I would imagine they'd contact tons of girls, whether or not they were "stunning" -- though I'd like to blame it on that of course! I wish. You have a point about changing to a Si-friendly pic...hadn't thought of that, but thanks! Very helpful post.

Yeah that probably didn't have anything to do with them thinking that you are more compatible or more attractive compared to what other guys think about you. They are just more likely to contact you, because that's what they do.

Also it might be that SiTe's might not be into online dating sites. I'm not sure though. But I share Fi-HA and Fe-PoLR with them. And I never even visit those sites (except one, but I didn't know it was a dating site, and I don't visit it for that purpose, at least consciously ). So it might be that SiTe's also are less likely to use them. And NeTi's probably very likely to use them.

[Gilly]

I think self-improvement is kind of a granted for Betas; we are always reaching for something higher, which means that we have to improve ourselves to get there.

[Creepy-male]

I think Deltas do go for the self-improvement (like Rick and his precious skill with languages ), but not from any sort of Authority. The Delta side will tend to go about it in their own way, eating up all the resources possible. I think we'll tend to want to help others as well on a professional level; and in my case, for those close to me as well.

I think what changes also is the definition of self-improvement, as well as the way to go about it (what the last paragraph was about). Deltas in general I suppose would focus more on some ideal to grow towards, as opposed to patching up weak spots.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Yes, Betas usually want to help themselves and Deltas usually want to help. But we're in conflicting quadras so what happens is the Beta realizes they have to totally depend on themselves (what they wanted all along anyway), and the Delta realizes they should just leave people alone and focus on improving their own lives too instead of being an 'Encourager.'

It's a duality that both sides are best to overcome.

Deltas, being conflictors with Betas- put a lot of pressure on Beta's super-ego. They are guilt inducing naturally, and the Beta usually feels like they need to be saved from the Delta. But Betas do the same thing with Deltas, and making them think they can "Help" when in all reality we all have to help ourselves AND THEN only then can we truly enjoy others, as the beautiful independent and powerful people we all innately are. =)

The very fact that Betas want help from Deltas, and Deltas want to help- shows a very unhealthy, un-equal co-dependent relationship that isn't based on unconditional love.

You bring up a lot of GREAT issues, enfp. Keep it up!

[redbaron]

oh yeah I agree that every alpha I know shies away from self-improvement of that sort. they seem generally pretty averse to counseling or reading those types of books. whereas the betas I know do seek it out! my sle friend is always trying to improve and not shy about admitting it (at least to me). which I find really cute! because you know how some men can be sort of proud about that sort of thing. but he'll be like "oh you would like this book I'm reading.... blah blah" and be really open about it.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Does anyone have thoughts on if Betas are more interested in self-development? I'm wondering because I've noticed that many of my clients have been Betas. (I'm a business and relationships coach).

Is it something Betas are naturally interested in, because of the quadra values of strength, power, etc. Or is it just a fluke? It seems the majority are ESTps. Isn't it odd that I haven't attracted more Deltas? or Alphas or Gammas?

And of course this is only people I typed after several months working together (I naturally just type everyone after a while like most of us here).

Currently I have (all Betas except for 1):
ESTp (Ti)
ESTp (Se)
ESTp (Se)
ISTj
one ENFj I know just asked for a consultation
one ENFp (Fi)

In the past:
(all betas except for 2)
INFp
ESTp
ISTj
ISTj

ESFj
ESFp

The rest I'm unsure of their type.

2) Also strange...I've noticed when online dating that the vast majority of guys who contact me are ENTps or ESTps. Also confused by this one.

Ideas?

Am I not coming across as ENFp? Or is socionics just random as far as attracting people? I would assume I'd be attracting people from my own quadra, etc. Or, someone said I might be an enneagram 7w8...maybe the 8-ish-ness could be a factor?

I know of an ESTj who's into self-improvement in terms of business. Recently he read about about blame culture, ie this woman drives off a cliff when she finds out her husband is having an affair. Who's at fault, the woman for driving off the cliff? The man for being unfaithful? The woman for not being there to have sex with him? The other woman who came on to him? The child for putting too much pressure on the family so the man goes elsewhere for escapism... you get the idea. In a way sounded kinda (The analogy was for how things work in blame culture in business world).

Another book he was into was something to do with mice looking for cheese. How some of them stayed with what they had but it eventually ran out, the others went searching for new "cheese" and eventually found it (which could be an analogy for , in terms of looking for new opportunities and not letting the existing ones dry up), although there were some other elements thrown in which types could relate to which perhaps makes it more overall attractive different types of people - the mice had to struggle for a while, which could in a way interest an ESTp type (different types take out of things different ideas, or they focus on the things that interest them the most and take that out, kinda like listening to song lyrics maybe)?

I worked in a company that was very Beta management style, and the ENFj's and such were really into self development in terms of business and coaching. Their (the Beta's interest), ime, was more along the lines of team motivation, focusing as one unit, individuality being stripped away. I don't think that sort of thing is something Delta's or other quadra particulary buy into.

Depends on what sort of work you're into, and how you promote yourself. You could maybe get more Delta work by going to visit them pro-actively in their business then see about doing a chat/conference or however you do it. Dunno, just rambling

2) Also strange...I've noticed when online dating that the vast majority of guys who contact me are ENTps or ESTps. Also confused by this one.

Brilliand makes a good point I think. Perhaps appear less glamourous or something in your picture, more homely in a way, if you're looking done up etc. For instance, Delta's I know, although can be smart looking, aren't particularly hung up on clothing and glitzy stuff. If I saw/see a girl who looks "done up" my inclination is not to approach her at first.

Strange, my male INFj friend mentioned in the pub last week a girl who he quite liked the look of, she was sort of sporty and informal looking but clearly healthy, clean, and with a slim physique, she could have been ISTp/ESTj, and isn't the worst interpretation of a Delta (although we come in all shapes and sizes).

If some of this doesn't apply to you, or I haven't phrased it very well, sorry, but I get the impression you're very attractive

[jewels]

... and then the result is self-erasing and not self-improving...

Yeah I think "self-erasing" is a good way to put it. It's soo horrid. Actually I've been hesitant to work w/ coaches, therapists, etc. out of that fear that they'll tell me what I should do, or judge, or try to impart their "wisdom." And it's a valid fear as many out there do that, even though the point is NOT to do that. I saw coaches even in my classes doing that. It can really mess with your confidence if you're working w/ someone like that. It can be really hurtful too (I had some coaches say really negative things to me...took me a long time to get over). And then it's like you can't even make a decision.

It makes me really mad when I see that because they're building in that feeling of "I better ask this person who knows more than I do" (and then they feel like they can't even make a decision w/o consulting someone) and that does ensure they have lots of clients (probably why they do it), but their clients are NOT healthy!! ICK. The whole idea is suppose to be challenging the client to answer questions for themselves so they are stronger/more independent. You're suppose to answer "do I think my goal has potential?" NOT the coach. Because why would a practical stranger who barely knows anything about you know what you're capable of? But I've heard coaches say that (ex, I don't think this person has writing talent) and it makes me furious. How would they know? Are they the god of publishing all of a sudden?

It SHOULD be about getting them to trust themself/their intuition. Asking questions for them to decide. Especially for ESTps. For instance, a trader who is doubting whether he should make a trade because he is thinking of what he "should" do vs. what he intuitively knows will work. And then just trusting his instincts, etc. That's what builds the confidence...the decisions and actions made independently.

Sigh. ok end rant. Omg, that is the thing that makes me so furious though. I wish there was a way to stop people from messing others up like that though.

I got totally stuck on that tangent...I need to take some deep breaths now LOL...I will write back to the other posts once I calm down

[tiny_dancer]

Ironically, I think MP's post implies that deltas are the one who cause such an effect.

[tiny_dancer]

Because you were replying to B&D, who thinks deltas are the root of all evil, bent on the eradication of betas everywhere.

[Creepy-male]

Because you were replying to B&D, who thinks deltas are the root of all evil, bent on the eradication of betas everywhere.

And of course he's wrong.

Of course.

Move along, people.

[redbaron]

Why would that be? I think any teacher, parent, coach, person succeeding in imposing their values on others can cause complexes that are potentially harmful. And since all types can be in such positions, where others trust them and listen to them, all types can cause such effects.

absolutely.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

No lol I don't think Deltas are the root of all evil, just describing the conflict.

[Danielle]

This is not quadra specific at all. What may be quadra specific is what is viewed as worth improving and perhaps the ways one goes about improving whatever it is. But just to tell you my reaction, the idea that Betas don't see themselves as already perfect wouldn't have crossed my mind. I was shocked at the idea that Betas of all types would be more interested in self-improvement, when these are the ones most assertive about what they think they know, most certain of "reality", and most likely to act as if they are the best (witness all these Betas are the best at this or that threads started by Betas). But after reading the posts, it is obvious to me that "self-improvement" is as much a part of Beta quadra as any other, we just don't all see it the same.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Typically, Alphas are more interested in enjoyable work conditions than forging out a battle plan for a career or w/e, (related somewhat to Judicious over Serious) maybe you get more approaches from Betas due to this sort of thing?

[UDP]

I suspect Deltas might be more motivated out of a sense of preservation or "completion", refining things to their best nature. Where as Betas may simply be dissatisfied or bored with the status quo - they need a release for their visionary and rambunctious nature (teenagers).

Deltas are probably more like elderly folk who politically mobilize because they feel threatened or feel like something 'needs to be done' for the good of (whatever it is they care about).

[Danielle]

Are you sure you are not talking about Deltas?

Already seeing themselves as perfect? I don't know about other Deltas, but I know that while I may strive to present an appearance of deep-seated strength and capableness, inside I am always striving for an ideal of perfection. I would think Deltas tend to be perfectionists to a certain extent, and perfectionists by nature are always trying to better themselves. I like a stable environment because it makes it much easier for me to work on things. I also love intellectual challenges.

The "I'm better than you vibe" is - the way I see it - a lot stronger from Deltas than from Betas. Betas are - ime - a lot more accepting of people who are not "perfect" than Deltas, who in my eyes seem to suck up to "perfect" people, and critizice everybody else.

All of my friends have always been "damaged" people like myself. Actually, I can't stand people who present an image of "I can do anything" which is a Beta/Gamma-Se thing from what I have observed.

Also, Betas seem a lot more accepting of "non-conventional" life choices.

I can't pin "non-conventional life choices" to any quadra. My life is very unconventional, independent, and of my own choosing. I have had long relationships with people of every quadra, and none of those people have been naturally "conventional".

What is "self-improvement" to you? I sometimes feel Deltas see "self-improvement" as being sweeter to others and not fucking up the mood in family parties...

Well, since when are mean, cruel, nasty people the ones who are most likely to improve themselves? That's why I initially scoffed at the very idea of this topic. The macho, arrogant, pushy blowhards are the people LEAST likely to care about "self-development" since they're so busy trying to push themselves on others. I always figured they must be pretty satisfied with their "selves" and opinions and desires since they're so open about pushing all that on other people. The Beta NFs I have befriended always seemed to already have a set vision of where they wanted to go, and so long as no one got in the way they would get there. I don't see where the self-development fits in when you already think you've got it going on.

To me, self-improvement means trying to better my character. To my Alpha brother, it means trying to know more and better his circumstances, and to be more like his mentors. To my Gamma mother, it means building the kind of life that matches her dreams.

Self-improvement - in my eyes - is to find a balance within. And then, probably, you won't feel the need to fuck up the mood in family parties UNLESS it is the right thing to do.

To me, I am not unbalanced within. What I need is to make myself into the best me possible by developing my character and ridding myself of flaws. I can't do this if I don't have a whole self already.

Yes, that's more or less what I've learned from Socionics - that different quadras aren't stupid or evil - they just have different values. I had an LSE boyfriend for a while, and that was kind of OK, so it's not impossible to meet and understand different point of views.

The only conflicts I have with Betas are online, mostly here, and mostly not my conflictors. I am pretty careful in my life not to get into it with Betas and we can be friendly. I've dated Beta and while there were a lot of debates, I don't recall conflicts of character (although now he has turned evil, years after we broke up). I have a Beta friend now and we admire each other. But those are Beta NFs though. I have had very little interaction with Beta STs.

[Danielle]

To be a perfectionist and to like intellectual challenges is not type related, imo. How it manifests probably is.

That may be, but perfectionism and seeking challenges are incompatible with the notion of "I don't need to develop", or seeing themselves as perfect which you ascribed to Deltas.

To say "I can do anything" is what self-improvement all starts with, isn't it? If you have nothing to strive for, what is there to improve?

If you think you can do anything why would you need to improve? From my observations, Betas, particularly Beta STs, take a long time to learn lessons and change. They make the same mistakes over and over again, and are more apt to find ways to avoid the consequences than change themselves. If you're trying to change the world around you, when does that leave time for changing yourself?

What was the point of reframing the question? It was a very defensive thing to do, and I was not attacking you.

That's odd. The way the question was framed was quite inflammatory. My initial reaction was not to respond to it at all. Actually, I was going to walk away from the discussion completely when I saw that question, and had already typed "I don't have time for this". But I figure, if confrontation is what someone likes then confrontation is what I will give them.

BTW, your projections above - about how you see Beta STs - tell a lot about you.

I'm sure they do, but I'm me and that's that. Part of successful "self-development" is knowing what you can change and what you can't. I will always resist any notion that I should be more like anyone else, and it seems to me that Betas want you to be more like them.

Self-development is about getting somewhere, isn't it? How can you get anywhere if you don't know where to go?

Well, they definitely go somewhere. But the impression I get is that they already feel like they are there, and just everyone and everything else is in the way. It's all a matter of external obstacles, and not something within the self that needs to change. Which is why it's hard for me to associate this with self-development.

And to me it means to find balance within. I need to love myself, flaws and all, and accept the whole me, both the shadow side and the beautiful parts.

Well that's beautiful and wonderful. It is also the greatest strength of EIIs, to encourage people to accept themselves and make themselves whole by seeing that they already are.

So what you said earlier, your impression that Deltas don't accept people who are less than perfect, couldn't be more wrong from my perspective. What use is an EII to a perfect person? I take people as they are and try to get them to accept themselves. I emphasize their strengths because the rest of the world is apt to focus on their weaknesses.

It's interesting because my impression is that Betas steamroll over the weak, not "accept" them. You have to be outwardly strong and already confident to hang with Betas.

Tbh, this scares me. I see it as if you have made a judgement of what a "good" person is, and strive to be that image, and then you can judge everybody else it they don't fit your mold. It's the opposite of self-improvement, as I see it. It's self-limitation and self-justification.

It's true that my impression of what makes a "good person" doesn't come from anyone else. However, it does not follow that because I strive to reach an ideal for me, that I would think that same ideal applies to others. Everyone has their own ideal, and I believe the components for reaching it are already within. So first a person must accept that they already have everything it takes to be who they want to be. Then they have to root out everything that is keeping them from being that person. I am wary of anyone trying to get you to develop who doesn't accept you already. How can they guide you when they don't know and love you?

It's all about using to integrate the pieces of the self. I don't go around trying to break people down by telling them they need to be more like me. I see them for who they are and encourage them to appreciate their strengths and integrate their weaknesses.

Evil? In what way did he turn "evil" ??

How does a conflict with Betas manifest/what do you conflict about?

Oh, he became a malicious liar about something very important. He lied to hurt others just because he was having issues, which is a big deal to me.
An SLE acquaintance of mine and close friend of a loved one told a terrible lie about him in order to get herself out of trouble. I know she didn't really think about the consequences to him, so it's not necessarily "evil" per se, but this is a big issue for me. But it would be no use for me to ever confront a Beta, and I never do, so I don't go around having conflicts with them on the regular.

But lying about someone is still a major thing, and it would be wrong to say that Betas go around lying because they obviously don't. So I'll try to narrow it down to something that comes down to matters of interpretation (the real type conflicts) and not necessarily matters of character: rudeness. Making people uncomfortable. That's a big one. What you said about not messing up the mood of parties, while I don't think that has anything to do with self-development, I do think it exemplifies a source of conflict I've had with Betas of all stripes. If they are uncomfortable, they want to make other people as uncomfortable as they are. If they are bored when others are having a good time, they ruin the good time of others so now they're more excited. If they don't care about a topic of discussion, they ruin it.

On the boards, and now I'm definitely not talking about you (this is actually an IEI thing I have observed on the boards), they can be confrontational and disrespectful. See, to me, when someone disrespects that which is important to someone else, they are disrespecting that person on a deeper level. This ties into my concept of "self-development" and accepting people that I already explained. If you are dismissing and disrespecting someone, then you are not accepting them. I know there's a difference between not respecting someone's opinion about something and not respecting them as a person, but the language that is used really seems to cross that line to me.

[Ezra]

From my personal experience, all the Betas I have known have generally been interested in bettering, furthering, improving or developing themselves in some way. Lack of focus bores the Beta, because they need a goal or motive in doing what they do. I'd go as far to oversimplify it to the effect that:

Ti is responsible for the rational, methodical and systematic nature of actions.
Se is responsible for the action itself.
Ni is responsible for providing inspirational thought to act.
Fe is responsible for spurring on the thought that leads to the action.

[The Greeter]

All quadras would like to improve in a certain way; all quadras are interested in self-improvement.

Seeing all these "Betas are the best" thread did make me roll my eyes at first, yet at the same time, I knew it was something that was uniquely Beta. Moreso than feeling that it was a declaration of Beta's "superiority", which in other instances is the case, I interpreted it as a collective attempt to increase morale and inspire other members of the quadra and hoping that it will simultaneously inspire self.


I'd like to add: if everybody was perfect or felt that they were, EIIs would be, with absolute certainty, the most useless type. It's an inadequacy we deal with in substantial frequency.

When one connects these two observations, it can be seen why there is a misinterpretation between these two quadras. Deltas can easily assume that Betas must be quite self-assured (due to the Beta behaviour described above) and think it unwarranted, even though in reality, Betas are all too aware of their flaws. And Delta's criticism towards Beta, stemming from the inaccurate assumption made by the former, leads Beta to inaccurately conclude that Delta's think they are perfect.

My solution: get to know the individual and don't worry about type. Then, at least, the misinterpretation will be solved.

[Creepy-male]

It's weird how I always end up agreeing with you. Must be type-related.

It's a talent, one I wish I had

[Danielle]

It's a talent, one I wish I had

Agreeing with TheGreeter is a talent you wish you had?

[Creepy-male]

Agreeing with TheGreeter is a talent you wish you had?

Seeing every angle. I can do it, but nowhere as in-depth as what the G-Dawg just unleashed

[Ezra]

All quadras would like to improve in a certain way; all quadras are interested in self-improvement.

Seeing all these "Betas are the best" thread did make me roll my eyes at first, yet at the same time, I knew it was something that was uniquely Beta. Moreso than feeling that it was a declaration of Beta's "superiority", which in other instances is the case, I interpreted it as a collective attempt to increase morale and inspire other members of the quadra and hoping that it will simultaneously inspire self.

Yeah, that's a pretty decent point.

[jewels]

yeah I agree w/ a lot of the points made here. I do think every quadra wants to improve in their own way. It's possible that Beta is the most interested in rapidly "charging ahead" towards that change.

I wonder if Delta might need to sort of warm up to someone first, and feel sort of confidant-ish with them in order to be comfortable working together? I do have an ENFp client (and we established that feeling quickly), but I've known ESTj friends for example who asked me about this stuff only after becoming really good friends. I wonder if Deltas would be more open to hiring someone to do the things Betas do well? Like Se-focused things? There was an ESTp trainer at my gym who offered to teach me to box and I was SO excited! I had Rocky music playing in my mind.

Of my two new clients this week, one is of course a Beta! lol. I think an ENFj. Wanted to get started at 7am on a Monday! Total attitude of commitment, which I must say I admire. The whole "I will do and commit to anything to make this possible." The energy ENFjs have is amazing but I notice they need clarity on where to direct their energy in a focused way. They want someone to tell them the right way (like an ISTj would), but it's important they listen to their own opinions first and clarify what they really want.

So I do really enjoy working w/ Betas in this capacity, which is of course very different from being best friends or something. The structure of it makes it work so much better. INFps are also fun because they can come across as unconfident at times, but they're not. Because when you point out what's working well for them (or their strengths) they quickly spring into action. Also if they get pushed down by something it can really motivate them and they show this very fiery side that can motivate them for some time (much longer than it would motivate me!).

The way these things come across I think is very subjective. For instance, ESTps do have an aura of "I'm right" and "I know" just like ISTjs do. But I guess you need that to put Se into practice. However, ESTps in particular are quick to admit they might not know all the answers and do seem very open to other perspectives. Often they'd ask me for a different approach, and say they didn't want their ego to take over and prevent them from growing. But it of course depends on the ESTp. I did have one I had to stop working with who would start yelling (usually just upset about his past failures, but would direct it at me = scary).

I think this aura of "I'm right" can be intimidating to Deltas, and seem like they think they have it all figured out. That doesn't mean they do, or think they do, just that us Deltas perceive it that way. I think Betas also assume we think we have it all figured out (also not true), but we project that somehow.

It's true that what Deltas feel is "freedom" is what Betas feel is the opposite. And vice versa. Deltas feel free when we're in close psychological distance to others who understand our Fi-outlook of being polite by not imposing our feelings/views on others. So we need to maintain our "polite" thoughtful behavior to give others space to be themselves (so they can be free too). Where as Betas don't feel that is "polite" but controlling. What we see as polite they see as limiting (and vice versa). They feel free by breaking those rules that we put in place in order to help others feel free.

So I think when we see a thread like "Betas are the best!" Deltas cringe, thinking Betas really mean that absolutely. And Deltas think "No, you aren't -- no one is the best! How silly and arrogant!" When I think what they really mean in Delta language is "Betas are such a great quadra! I'm so happy to be a Beta! yay!" But Betas would never write that.