Social mores, societal values, etc

[Gilly]

In what way do you think these things are functionally related?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Hmm this is kind of a loaded question but,

I said this before in another thread, but I believe that the 'real world' and how it's constructed is run heavily by Gammas and Deltas. No single function (or even two or three functions) contributes to something as complex as social mores or values, but I definitely think that as a whole they can be quadra-related.

Alphas and Betas are the writers/entertainers that tend to see through the veil and see the bigger picture, Gammas and Deltas work harder and see the details better. You could probably say that Gammas and Deltas can't see the forest for the trees, but Alphas and Betas can't see the trees for the forest.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Therefore, Betas tend to be activists, and checking to make sure that the social mores that Deltas create are fair to people. Gammas tend to try to apply things to themselves, breaking taboos to achieve their personal vendettas. They're kinda split down the middle of how Belta and Delta operate I think.

I said that Betas are pure leftists in that we tend to want to make sure that the laws protect our individual goals 'as long as we're not hurting anybody else.' Even though Deltas may be liberal themselves, they take a much more democratic approach. Ie an enfp or estj condescendingly telling an infp that "You know everybody feels that way sometimes but you still have to get up and go to work!" Deltas love community social organizations, but Betas tend to see how people get bullied and abused and their individualities wrecked in those kinds of structures.

Alphas don't really give a shit, they're the least serious quadra and just want to make sure that they're doing everything they can to remain happy for themselves and their loved ones. So alphas tend to just happily follow the rules without much fuss or input themselves. They just obey while talking about the latest tv show they watched or whatever. They can still have really good insights, but they just aren't as serious as changing or effecting the world as the other three quadras. If they do see something wrong with the world it's done in such a jokey way that I'm not sure how serious they are. They make good commentary but probably won't actually DO much to effect things socially. Idk, this sounds kind of 'sloppy' but I think I'm generally right.

[Brilliand]

Alphas and Betas are the writers/entertainers that tend to see through the veil and see the bigger picture, Gammas and Deltas work harder and see the details better. You could probably say that Gammas and Deltas can't see the forest for the trees, but Alphas and Betas can't see the trees for the forest.

You're talking about Logic right now.

@OP: Social mores try to limit everyone so that they can deal with each other. The people who have done the best job of complaining about others, and who have made the best case that what they do is necessary, have the most control of social mores. However, every quadra has some hand in them, since every quadra has at some time made a good case that the poorest uses of their unvalued functions are, well, bad.

[Joy]

In what way do you think these things are functionally related?

I think aristocracy and rationality primarily. There's can be a Fe/Ti aspect to it, but certainly not all Fe/Ti types embrace the social norm. (Maybe they tend to be more aware of it though, one way or another?)

[Brilliand]

but certainly not all Fe/Ti types embrace the social norm.

Not all types of any sort embrace the social norm.

[Joy]

idk... I have yet to see an LSE who doesn't, even if they think they don't.

[Gilly]

Personally I think social norms and expectations are mostly related to Ti. IME, the people who follow them most closely and purport their merit tend to be Ti/Fe types; however, the people who most actively question or oppose them also tend to be Ti/Fe types. Fi/Te types seem, by degrees, to take them for granted or ignore them.

[Joy]

Yeah, I think there's really something to be said about it relating to Fe/Ti types. Te/Fi types are more likely to say something along the lines of, "I never really thought much about it."

My point about LSE's remains though.

[Gilly]

Yeah, I agree for the most part. My mom is LSE and while she frequently ignores little "rules" of communication, and can be blunt, for the most part she acts very "normal;" she acts like herself, and doesn't change her behavior in order to explicitly comply with social norms, but she seems, for lack of a better word, well programmed.

[Joy]

Yeah, it's like they think they have to act in a certain way and they've never even questioned it. And if you question it, they get really irritated and indignant. "Why would there be any need to question such a thing?! It's a given!" They don't like to explain their reasons for doing stuff. And there's a huge focus on being "normal".

Maybe it's a combination of a Ni PoLR + a Fe role? Fe roles don't play out like that in LIE's, but they're more likely to question the underlying "why" of things.

[Gilly]

Hmmmm, I don't know about a huge focus on being normal; my mom takes pride in her "weirdness." The thing is, she just has no perspective whatsoever on how "not weird" she really is because she takes entirely for granted all of the ways in which she is like other people. It's kind of cute, actually; she talks so much about how everyone in our family has their own little quirks, and how she can't imagine what it would be like to be "normal," and yet, she has pretty standardized opinions on political matters which she doesn't question, dresses like a "normal" New Englander, doesn't have any obvious character or behavioral abnormalities aside from the occasional faux pas, and has pretty "standard" expectations of herself and everyone around her. It's almost as though she doesn't have any perspective on how "weird" someone can really be.

What's even stranger is, I'm a pretty weird person, with a shady personal history, am not very sociable, very moody, have extreme or eccentric opinions on virtually everything, and have a worldview that is structured completely different from hers in almost every way, and yet she thinks of me as a "perfectly normal, healthy boy." If she met me on the street, or by random encounter, she would probably think I was some strange artsy type or druggy or anarchist, but simply by virtue of the fact that I am her son, I am "normal" to her.

[Joy]

You're her baby.

I guess my son's dad is sort of like that, though much more negative about the whole thing. He thinks he's an individual and is open minded, but he INSISTS that his son is perfectly normal, even though ADHD medication works miracles on the kid.

[Gilly]

See, my mom would never reject something that helped me just to say that I'm "normal;" that guy just sounds like a jackass, probably nothing to do with being LSE.

[Joy]

Yeah. I know other LSE's who aren't that bad. They're still more focused on the negative than anything, but they're not assholes. At least one of them isn't.