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    A theory has been proposed that if siblings are identicals, one sibling grows up filling the dual roll, and adopts that role into their personality even into adulthood. What do you think?
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    My brother was born INTp. Now the poor fucker is ESFp. How sad for him. No, I wish it were me.+

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    uh

    seriously?
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    Joy thinks she might be ISFp.

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    maybe my sister is ENTp, did you think of that?!?!

    no, I am Joy, not XXXx
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    Exactly.

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    Hmm not sure but I do believe it has an impact. However, if its only the influence of the identical causing the person to act like a dual, once removed from the situation I think they should take on more of their natural traits. Why I think this?

    I'm kind of subdued because of growing up with an ESFj mom and ENFj sister. They kind of dominated the house leaving me, my ISTp dad, and my other ESTp sister always feeling like we were kind of heartless. I had to learn to be very sensitive to feelers and have a thick skin to their comments when in a bad mood.

    It affected my confidence in that I always felt like I was doing something wrong for the longest time. It wasn't until I got out of the environment that I started to really grow.

    So, its like a win/lose situation. The win is you get an increased understanding and ability to deal with that type but you also are denied growth in other areas because your thinking side is being discouraged.

    However, once out of the situation, I actually started developing my thinking and trusting my intuition more. Because these are my natural traits, the changes actually happened quite quickly.

    Away from my family and in the workplace I come off as a very confident person who is really laid back. Around my family though, I am tense and not myself at all. I'm defensive towards them if they start being critical of me in a way that I feel is actually a positive trait that they just don't understand. Basically, because I have to change so much to accommodate them, I'm just not that close with them.
    Polly
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    that's all sorta different than duality though... identicals don't feel stressed filling in the dual role compared to the type of thing you're talking about...

    and if someone has filled in that dual role their whole life, I would imagine that it would take a while to return to their natural functions

    it seems that it wouldn't be all that dramatic though... I can't picture an introverted type turning into that much an extrovert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    that's all sorta different than duality though... identicals don't feel stressed filling in the dual role compared to the type of thing you're talking about...

    and if someone has filled in that dual role their whole life, I would imagine that it would take a while to return to their natural functions

    it seems that it wouldn't be all that dramatic though... I can't picture an introverted type turning into that much an extrovert
    Similar in the sense that if you have one part of the identical pair more dominant, the other will be accommodating that dominance. If that is the case, would it not be more of weird benficiary or supervisory type relationship?

    Because I had such dominant extroverts in my life many of my extraverted characteristics were encouraged but things like my outgoingness were actually supressed to accommodate a house with 4 extraverts. I was actually most like my father, the ISTp. He was much more doom and gloom though and I found he always found faults with my ideas instead of encouraging them. He tended to focus on my weaknesses instead of my strenghts.

    This all had an impact in helping me develop my weaknesses.

    It just struck me what a weird feeling it is to know how you benefitted from something but still feel the negative feelings even to this day that surrounded them.

    It makes me stronger as a whole but distant from the ones who actually causes the changes.

    Don't mind me, just feeling rather reflective this evening and digressing all over the place.

    Basically my point is yes, an impact but I'm not sure about the adoption of the dual role and I also think it would depend on other dynamics that were going on in the family unit. As for the speed of the change, that might just have to do with the individual and the circumstances at the time. I've had the opportunity to attend a lot of HR self-awareness seminars which really helped guide me in understanding myself better and how I relate to others. That probably facilitated things a lot faster.
    Polly
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    it's a silly theory
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    why?
    Polly
    ENTP

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    because the whole concept of an introvert becoming THAT much of an extrovert, even if growing up taking care of a dual sibling, is seems quite absurd

    however, it irritates me that all of the extrovert descriptions make them sound like they have so much energy
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    what does a PoLR look like?
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    there is nothing I hate more than being told what to do, tradition, and having obligations imposed on me

    (no maizemedley, it's NOT an ESTj thing.... ESTjs are military people and I am the LEAST military type person I have EVER known... ESTjs don't like to be bossed around but they totally comply to what society wants)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    there is nothing I hate more than being told what to do, tradition, and having obligations imposed on me

    (no maizemedley, it's NOT an ESTj thing.... ESTjs are military people and I am the LEAST military type person I have EVER known... ESTjs don't like to be bossed around but they totally comply to what society wants)
    That's as role. When others use , you feel compelled to use it aswell, thus the contrast.

    Besides, no one really "likes" to be told what to do.

    I can stand it only when I don't know what I have to do.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I can't see an introvert becoming THAT much of an extrovert and vice-versa either. Like I said, in my case, I still remained an extrovert just appeared in many ways to be an introvert..the key here is 'appeared', I was never an actual introvert though.

    Away from my family, I 'appear' to be more of an extrovert. However, I can see an impact, just not a duality one. So yeah, I agree, silly theory. In order for it to work you'd have to have one of the identicals totally willing to just give up who they are for their sibling. I didn't even like sharing my stuff!! I'm not going to give up half of my personality for my sisters.

    Actually, its kind of got me thinking about family dynamics. Are there any socionics pages that deal with family units and probably impacts of growing up in households where types might have lacked sympathy for each other? If not, I'm suprised, seems like it would have such a major impact on personality.

    Loving gestures by a parent to one child can feel almost like abuse to another. Then throw a few siblings in there, and you could have a house that leans to non-stop personality conflicts. OK, I'm being dramatic but I know I've felt at least some of that growing up in a house dominated by feelers. My ESFj mother and I clash like you wouldn't believe. I can appreciate her at a distance...at a distance I can admire all her wonderful qualities, its just when we actually talk that there is a lack of warm feelings.
    Polly
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    I think that when people are confused about their type, it's because their environment has rewarded them for using functions other than their first two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    there is nothing I hate more than being told what to do, tradition, and having obligations imposed on me

    (no maizemedley, it's NOT an ESTj thing.... ESTjs are military people and I am the LEAST military type person I have EVER known... ESTjs don't like to be bossed around but they totally comply to what society wants)
    That's as role. When others use , you feel compelled to use it aswell, thus the contrast.
    Thats funny because Im the same way. as role can lead to the same behavior, Ive seen ISxPs react to orders, and they drag their feet and moan till theres no time left for theorders to be fullfilled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerio
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    there is nothing I hate more than being told what to do, tradition, and having obligations imposed on me

    (no maizemedley, it's NOT an ESTj thing.... ESTjs are military people and I am the LEAST military type person I have EVER known... ESTjs don't like to be bossed around but they totally comply to what society wants)
    That's as role. When others use , you feel compelled to use it aswell, thus the contrast.
    Thats funny because Im the same way. as role can lead to the same behavior, Ive seen ISxPs react to orders, and they drag their feet and moan till theres no time left for theorders to be fullfilled.
    I lasted 2 weeks in naval cadets. All they had to do was tell me I had to just stand there and take someone yelling at me and wasn't allowed to yell back, I turned in me boots

    I only joined because through cadets you can take all these cool courses for free but even they weren't worth it. Oh..and there might have been a cute boy or two in the ranks
    Polly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerio
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    there is nothing I hate more than being told what to do, tradition, and having obligations imposed on me

    (no maizemedley, it's NOT an ESTj thing.... ESTjs are military people and I am the LEAST military type person I have EVER known... ESTjs don't like to be bossed around but they totally comply to what society wants)
    That's as role. When others use , you feel compelled to use it aswell, thus the contrast.
    Thats funny because Im the same way. as role can lead to the same behavior, Ive seen ISxPs react to orders, and they drag their feet and moan till theres no time left for theorders to be fullfilled.
    Yeah, passive-aggression.

    However, I'm still of the opinion that actually no one really "likes" to reiceve orders.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I used to think rules were stupid and treated people like idiots. Then I started to realize, there are a lot of idiots.

    Now I think there should be rules, they just shouldn't apply to me

    Passive aggressive behavior really annoys me. If someone is direct with me, I will be direct back. But with passive aggressives you are always left wondering did they really mean to drop that mean hint or are just not aware of how rude they are.
    Polly
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    *sighs* the things in red are me, the things in blue are not, the things in orange are notes I added

    Characteristic features of the types
    Don Quixote (ENTP)

    External signs

    From the external is indicative ILE, first of all, is focused on itself attention figure and carriage. Figure - long and thin. The parts of the body are also elongated. Especially this is manifested in the length of legs and is finger on the hands. If in the type logical component is intensified, then this special feature is expressed then not vividly. [color=orange]ILE is characterized by characteristic round-shouldered carriage with the sagging of the upper part of the housing forward in the manner of Latin letter "S". I had poor posture until I was diagnosed with degenerative disc disease, and now I pay attention to my posture. However, head in this case forward is not inclined. In ILE frequently are encountered the protruding or elongated, focusing on themselves attention noses. Impression now and then even is created, that it becomes accustomed to the smell of something. During the conversation this object loves to twirl anything in the hands, for example, knob, frequently breaks. In time walkings or when uvlechenno tells about by anything, it gesticulates and swings by hands as mill by wings. If in ILE it is intensified intuitive component, external signs somewhat different. For it is characteristic the chamfered chin, which smoothly passes into the neck, and also the protruding forward upper jaw. Intuitive subtype ILE is much less rapid in the motions in comparison with the logical. Eyes ILE those very washed away, regard through the fog, badly noting proceeding all around. They very cold, are completely deprived of emotionalism, of passion. Sometimes, depending on how comfortable I am. If I'm not very comfortable I have quite the poker face. One should say relative to clothing that in connection with the special features of figure ILE, the clothing almost always sits on it badly: it sags, it slips down, buttons are torn off and so forth this is manifested the brighter, the more the intuitive component is intensified in it.

    Manner of the contact

    ILE does not know how to hold correct distance in the contact in the long period. First it is friendly with the man, then, on the contrary, it is hostile to it, poor relation shows. I am not really hostile, but more so distant or maybe cold. Completely it does not examine the attitude of people toward itself. Therefore frequently it makes mistakes in its acquaintances. In the contact it behaves frequently unceremonious; it can tactlessly interfere into the conversation, loves everything to scrutinize, without turning attention to the reaction of people. Its fault never is recognized itself. Even if formally it apologizes itself, then nevertheless continues to conduct as before. It advances far reaching, frequently unreal under the given conditions plans. After a certain time forgets them and proposes something completely different, almost in no way logically connected with previous, but not less immense. To the past achievements it relates disdainfully. It is interested and says about entire uncommon from any regions. All newest theories draw it; ekstrasensy, yogi, biofield, NLO - all that that it cannot be explained from the point of view of logic and common sense. If this last sentence means what I think it does, then yes. I am attracted to Eastern Arts and philosophies, though I rarely put any real effort into learning about or practicing them. It not can to logically explain its ideas, they in it always intuitive, diffuse. The majority of people at them cannot be dismantled, simply they believe or do not believe. It loves to give advice as to disentangle from any difficult situation. It proposes in this case the most radical solutions.

    Special features of the behavior

    The chief characteristic of its behavior, on which with the confidence it is possible to assume belonging with this sotsiotipu, this large absent-mindedness ILE is inclined to leave objects, where it used them. Small objects continually loses. At the work site and in the personal effect in it frequently the disorder. He forgets, which in it is already made, but that still no. In spite of this, it knows how to appear the necessary resourcefulness, keenness in the daily matters, extracting from in all any, even small benefit.. This activity is now and then similar to kombinatorstvo in Ostap bender's spirit, because of what they can consider him sly and dodgy. In intuitive subtype this quality is expressed much less. Many matters immediately and rapidly to make do not know how. The fulfillment of uninteresting work to the latter draws off. Greatly it whips the presence in its time-trouble: it manages to make all accumulated matters in short time, although the quality of work because of this suffers. Another essential feature in its behavior - capability for the mobilization of its possibilities in the extreme situations. The only things I ever do quickly and just barely good enough at the last minute are homework and projects, boring things with deadlines. When working on things with no deadline, I work on it a little here and there and then finish it well in a burst of enthusiasm, or just forget about it all together. If volitional pressure is exerted to it, here it launches a counterattack. The response reaction can be more strongly. In such situations it can sometimes reach child abuse. FUCK NO!!! I'm great with kids, and even if I'm having a bad day and run out of patience, the worst I'll do is yell and then apologize. One additional special feature, which vividly characterizes this sotsiotip, privneseniye into any matter, by which practically it is occupied, the element of chaos, disintegration, negation. Especially vividly this is evident against the background of the keeping balance themselves associations with strict discipline. This in it is obtained creatively: destroying, it sozidayet. Around it frequently begin to be grouped the supporters of its dalekoidushchikh intuitive ideas. In the limiting cases this tendency can appear in the form of present "attack on the mills" - something in the form of the open call by all with the explicit absence of chances to the success. Specifically, this quality pushed slightly deputy Obolensky to advance its own candidature to the post of the chairman of the Supreme Soviet, which shocked chamber. lol what?
    Dumases (ISFP)

    External signs

    SEI focuses on itself attention by the expression of face and by the proportions of figure. However, these signs greatly differ in two subtypes OF SEI. SEI with the intensive ethical component is learned sufficiently simply. It is characterized by complete, rounded figure, short legs and pritantsovyvayushchey gait, why with the view on it is created the impression of "elastic ball". Form of face OF SEI - round, without the protruding sharp parts. ??? Sometimes is encountered the pulled up at the end "duck" nose. Eyes are also round. When it attempts to explain something, eyebrows rise upward. Transverse wrinkles on the forehead frequently are formed from this. Mouth is slightly it is bent into the nervous line. ??? In the minutes of the emotional conversation, when anything says, frequently swallows by mouth air, as fish. ??? The sensory version OF SEI has the elongated form of face. For it the characteristically suddenly thickening expression on face, the unexpectedly being appeared cruelty, when it desires to increase psychological distance, to place man on the place. I think I do thatÖ not sure though.The sensory subtype OF SEI is differed from ethical and in terms of more developed aesthetical taste. Its clothing is very frequently characterized by neatness and harmonious combination it is color. SEI ethical subtype produces the impression of cosiness, as if it recently left the apartment in the convenient, domestic clothing. Often, but when I dress up and look very well put together. I also have a talent with make up which Iíve been complimented on a lot.

    Manner of the contact

    With the people SEI associates on the short distance. Is always sociable, obayatelen, it is friendly disposed. It knows how to cause sympathy to itself, to enter into the confidence. The nature of contact is very democratic. However despite the fact that it is outwardly soft, it can verbally and emotionally press to the people. In the voice the hardness sometimes is manifested, face becomes severe. It is inclined to give advice relative to will and initiatives, the type: "do not sit at one place", "attain in all by your labor", "to be twisted is necessary" and the like if man does not go with it to the contact, then he does not tie. Only one attempt usually is made. The aim is contact only with the interesting people. LOL OMG It cannot itself force to associate with the person, who causes in it antipathy, even in the interests of the matter. In such conversations it loses entire its attractiveness, speech becomes indistinct, unconvincing. It loves to gather and to transfer interesting information and rumors. Cannot on several times repeat one and the same without the changes. Telling them, something from itself is added. Pfft. I am good about not repeating things that were told to me in confidence, and I donít make stuff up. I do, however, always have a story to tell. It can sow emotional instability because of this. Interest in the periodicals of avenue nature manifests. likes nature magazines? LOL wtf? Its problems no one it ties. Usually it answers to questions about the matters, that everything in the order. Can someone explain this to me??? It can for long speak, developing one theme. He tells, that sees all around that with it it occurred, about everything, which provides pleasure. Promises does not love to give. To the requests soak it most frequently answers thus: "4 to you I do not promise, but I will try" or "if to smog, then I will make". If promise does not hold in control, then it apologizes itself, until it feels that they forgave it.

    Special features of the behavior

    The most important special feature of the behavior OF SEI, which it is easy to note, if we ponablyudat' after it in the course of a certain time, this thrust to the pleasures of every kind. Desires everything to test in its own life, to obtain as much as possible enjoyment from the tasty food, the beautiful objects, the comfortable situation, the pleasant pastime. Greatly it loves to be enjoyed in the close to the circle of friends, starting company with a whole series of jokes, hints, dirty tricks. LOL drugs and hosting drinking parties Does not love to carry out its time, where it occurs in the shadow. By its independent to parodoksal'nosti behavior generates frequently the bewilderment and negative emotions in those surrounding are caused. They can consider it because of this frivolous person. translation please?!?!?! It does not love the business conferences and other dull measures. Has the tendency to negotiate on the unofficial in rovne. Moreover it uses only checked, reliable connections. Very economic. hehÖ on and off It loves to take different objects into the hands in order to touch them, to perceive their physical qualities. It loves to make the repair, other domestic works. Another important special feature of behavior, which makes it possible to determine this sotsiotip, the tendency to be held middle, not to be separated either to the side of the good or to the side the worse. It does not love to criticize people aloud for this reason, it does not interfere in the disputes, he tries to be held further from the authorities, with all to be in the peace. Nope. I do not mind taking sides or stating my mind, and I donít believe in authority. *stomach turns at the A word* I do, however, get what I want while being charismatic and considerate to what others want. Efficiently it can work only for itself. Heh. Maybe thatís why Iíve had 20= jobs, always either ending employment because of issues with the boss, a better job offer, or boredom. I dunno, the job I have now is great because thereís no authority figure for the most part. My boss is more like my partner, and I look forward to doing inspections on my own. Not it peretruzhdayetsya never in all remaining cases. It avoids strong physical loads. The efforts above itself it does not make. Nah, when Iím feeling motivated I can carry heavy things and whatnot. I carry a 28 ft ladder at work, and itís difficult but I think itís fun. People either stand and stair in disbelief or try to do it for me. By this quality it is obliged to its reputation of "talented lazy person".
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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    I identified with pretty much everything. I have very long and skinny fingers. I'm taller than most girls (5'9") and was all arms and legs growing up, and I actually was bone skinny most of my life until I had my thyroid removed and now I struggle to keep it off.

    I talk with my hands sometimes but I don't gesture quite as wildly as described.
    Polly
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    5. Suggestive Function - also known a "dual-seeking," this function is typically the most vulnerable to ouside influences and manipulation. It is not uncommon for a person to physically request help from another in regards to this function, as it often acts as a companion and helper to the 3rd function and indirectly to the 4th function. Sometimes a person can mistake this function for the 1st or 2nd functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I think that when people are confused about their type, it's because their environment has rewarded them for using functions other than their first two.
    Interesting point. I haved lived with a probable ESFj and worked among probable NTs for quite some time in my life. SiTe is not very popular in either environment. Maybe that is why I have problems seeing what my true first functions are. Especially I might be overusing my Ti sometimes because of the INTj/ENTp influence and also trying to project Fe more than would be natural for me. I have learned to adapt very well to different social contexts during the years but I might have lost part of myself in the process.

    That or I just don't know my true type yet

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    I think the latter is probable.
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    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
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    lols

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