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Thread: Is this ILI-INTp description accurate for you?

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    Default Is this ILI-INTp description accurate for you?

    The Critical INTp

    “A red breasted robin in a cage puts all the world in a rage.” Though William Blake may not have been thinking of an INTp as he wrote the line quoted it makes a charming metaphor for this type. Though the INTp may break down intellectual and social barriers odds are he will feel like he never took flight. He is an effective artist of the world, always looking for ways that he might change it to better heed his needs. He is an intellectual dreamer so lost in his own world that when shaken from his mind me may at first appear lost and distant.

    An eloquent and effective speaker, he can make the most mundane things seem quite amazing with his extravagant verbal skills. The INTp is very often fluent in several languages and may have even made up his own as a child. He is very mathematically inclined due to his ability to understand structure and patterns. The INTp shows an intense interest in religion and is more often than not delving into his studies of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and any other religion ancient or modern that strikes his interest. He shows a mish mash of beliefs and usually does not commit to one religion or the other.

    Socially he is charming and charismatic. When feeling sociable he will approach others with child like enthusiasm and a sardonic wit. However when not feeling social he is aloof and temperamental. The INTp puts up barriers and will rarely let them down. He is very guarded and worried that people are judging him because he himself is constantly quietly observing humans. The INTp is very skeptical about love, and though he wants more than anything to love, when he does he thinks himself foolish and quickly backs out of the relationship. As a rule he keeps a distance between himself and his friends. One of his biggest fears is to rely on someone emotionally.

    The INTp is self-confident to a fault. He loves a debate not only to prove his point to the person he is sparing with but also to confirm his own beliefs. The study of human behavior is very important to him. He can be blunt and insensitive to others simply to see their reaction. He can also be a kind sensitive listener, though he does not like to give advise due to his fear of doing more harm than good. He is calm, restrained and often unreadable.

    Perfect chaos is the only way to describe the choice living conditions for the INTp. He will leave the laundry and dishes undone, but the small important things to him are kept in perfect order. It is not uncommon for him to alphabetize and categorize his movie and book collections. The INTp will collect and study odd things such as, fossils, rocks, and old photographs. Things that most people might find boring are quite fascinating and important to him. He is bothered if he finds such small important things out of order and prone to fly into a rage if they are touched by one other than himself.

    The INTp is incredibly instinctive. He often knows what the out come of any given situation will be. He rarely gets himself into grave trouble for this reason. He is aware of this ability but is often unwilling to share it if he has not been taken seriously in this aspect in the past.

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    Hmm some of it actually sounds more like me. I'm not a really strong extrovert either though. I actually think we'd get along really well if I wasn't so sensitive to their attitude sometimes.

    The one INTp I know is just so jovial in person you can't take his criticisms seriously. He is married to woman who says she is an INTj but I'm not too sure about that. If she wasn't so warped it would be easier to tell.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    I think it's mostly accurate, although not all of it will perfectly fit all individual INTps, to state the obvious.

    A few things must be avoided, though: for instance it says that INTps often speak several languages. That must not be interpreted as meaning "aha, I speak several languages, so I must be INTp" or "I don't, so I'm not". The two persons most skilled in languages that I know are INFj and ENFp. So these very specific details must be considered only in the context of the whole profile.

    The functional description is quite good but mainly for the strongest functions; for the weaker ones I think it's more ambiguous.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    Hmm some of it actually sounds more like me. I'm not a really strong extrovert either though.
    I was thinking the description sounded a lot like a entp, in second pace, infp.

    Also the bit about being enthusiastic is unlike an intp

    Sorry Expat, I was not talking about the function description - only the first part.

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    Sycophant wrote that, however, I do not agree with it. But I only disagree with it in that I am highly against forum members writing type descriptions. Most of that reflects how she functions herself and not how all INTps function.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    ...but if you don't see it in yourself does that not mean that the description is not intp. Seems more entp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Sycophant wrote that, however, I do not agree with it. But I only disagree with it in that I am highly against forum members writing type descriptions. Most of that reflects how she functions herself and not how all INTps function.
    I actually enjoy reading them. As long as people take them for what they are, a SELF-description then there usually isn't a problem. I also think it gives some good insights into the variations within type....or maybe that the person isn't the type they think they are.

    I find sometimes people get too wrapped up in the "well sometimes I'm like this... or that....". I find the best way to tell is by listening to your first primal reaction. It doesn't mean you will actually act in that way, its just your first instinct that you might even supress. If you're still not sure think back to your childhood and how you would have reacted then.

    I don't know if personalities actually change so much as people become more aware of themselves. They become more understanding and accepting of their faults and that helps them grow....and perhaps even act more like their type description or less like their type description.

    I think it might be fun to write my own type description. For me, it would address some of the misconceptions I see people have about ENTps.
    Polly
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    We all have our own opinions about lots of things... one of mine is what Cone stated.
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    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Sycophant wrote that, however, I do not agree with it. But I only disagree with it in that I am highly against forum members writing type descriptions. Most of that reflects how she functions herself and not how all INTps function.
    That is why I wrote a functional description under each one ... I was trying to neutralize the descriptions out to make them more functional.

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    I was trying to write a description that was less Scientific and more personal. I think a lot of times people new to socionics can't relate to a lot of the nonsense written in some descriptions. I was kind of in an odd state of mind at the time though and not thinking subjectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sycophant
    I was trying to write a description that was less Scientific and more personal. I think a lot of times people new to socionics can't relate to a lot of the nonsense written in some descriptions
    I also agree with this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sycophant
    I was trying to write a description that was less Scientific and more personal. I think a lot of times people new to socionics can't relate to a lot of the nonsense written in some descriptions. I was kind of in an odd state of mind at the time though and not thinking subjectively.
    lol!

    *hugs sara*

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    Anyhow, that description is not INTp, as supported by Cone (INTp).

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    Default Re: Is this intp description good/accurate?

    This goes to show that out Sara is a very special girl. The description here is certainly flattering, and perhaps a bit too flattering. I'm not surprised the ENTps identify with this description (ENTps identify with every description - especially those that are particularly flattering :wink, but I actually see very little ENTp in here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    The Critical INTp

    “A red breasted robin in a cage puts all the world in a rage.” Though William Blake may not have been thinking of an INTp as he wrote the line quoted it makes a charming metaphor for this type. Though the INTp may break down intellectual and social barriers odds are he will feel like he never took flight. He is an effective artist of the world, always looking for ways that he might change it to better heed his needs. He is an intellectual dreamer so lost in his own world that when shaken from his mind me may at first appear lost and distant.
    This is something I've heard verbalized by many INTps, among them our Cone. I suspect that, if we were to follow the train of thought that leads to this mindset, we would find this is based on Ni, as this is a trait that INTps share with INFps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    An eloquent and effective speaker, he can make the most mundane things seem quite amazing with his extravagant verbal skills.
    INTps are usually not so gifted verbally, from my observation. They tend to be somewhat awkward (dare I say it, nerdy) and even tactless in conversation. Many do have a gift for language, but tend to express themselves much better through written than spoken word. I've also heard people complain that INTps can carry an affrontery of coldness, apathy, and bemusement which might put warmer types (feelers, mostly) ill at ease. We they try to be light-hearted, they much of thetime end up looking affected or dorky - which can actually be rather charming if it isn't accompanied by arrogance or cynicism (which, I'm sorry to say, is often the case).

    Quote Originally Posted by BlakeyMcBlake
    The INTp is very often fluent in several languages and may have even made up his own as a child. He is very mathematically inclined due to his ability to understand structure and patterns.
    This seems to hold up, although perhaps, citing a skill in language might be more effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlakeTheFlake
    The INTp shows an intense interest in religion and is more often than not delving into his studies of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and any other religion ancient or modern that strikes his interest. He shows a mish mash of beliefs and usually does not commit to one religion or the other.
    Interestingly enough, more than half the INTps I know are admitted Atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBlake
    Socially he is charming and charismatic.
    This is a tad bit misleading. INTps can indeed be surprisingly sociable and charming... however, most will tend to be standoffish, and typically rather shy. Most INTps I know do exhibit the desire and ability to interact socially pretty effectively, but often cross the line between effectively and smoothly - that is to say, INTps usually get where they want to be, socially, but more often than not, rarely value social interaction as much as other types. As a result, INTps may feel socially well-off, but only because they tend not to go after too wide a social circle to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlakeTheBarber
    The INTp puts up barriers and will rarely let them down. He is very guarded and worried that people are judging him because he himself is constantly quietly observing humans. The INTp is very skeptical about love, and though he wants more than anything to love, when he does he thinks himself foolish and quickly backs out of the relationship. As a rule he keeps a distance between himself and his friends. One of his biggest fears is to rely on someone emotionally.
    This seems quite accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfBlaked
    The INTp is self-confident to a fault.
    This is somewhat of an overstatement. INTps have a very good sense of confidence in their own abilities in comparison to others... but they are actually pretty modest and realistic about their own shortcomings. They will tend to put up a front, but are easily disarmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blakeotomy
    Perfect chaos is the only way to describe the choice living conditions for the INTp. He will leave the laundry and dishes undone, but the small important things to him are kept in perfect order. It is not uncommon for him to alphabetize and categorize his movie and book collections. The INTp will collect and study odd things such as, fossils, rocks, and old photographs. Things that most people might find boring are quite fascinating and important to him. He is bothered if he finds such small important things out of order and prone to fly into a rage if they are touched by one other than himself.
    This holds up pretty well now that I think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HittheBlakes!CriedMsHutchinson
    The INTp is incredibly instinctive. He often knows what the out come of any given situation will be. He rarely gets himself into grave trouble for this reason. He is aware of this ability but is often unwilling to share it if he has not been taken seriously in this aspect in the past.
    This seems to be describing Ni, and holds up pretty well.

    All this said, I think such descriptions are generally helpful to those individuals just discovering Socionics and trying to uncover their own type. Functional descriptions, though more impressive, are often rather dubious once we attach colloquial (and hence, comprehensible) connotations to the abstract functions. People identify with descriptions of people - not descriptions of the activities of an abstract set of preferential instincts, working in a very intricate combination. Functional analysis can be used to put a framework over the behavior, but to denote behavior as a result of functions is a fallacy. Goodbye, cute lemings.

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    Your knowledge of INTps scares me.

    Oh, and funny quotings of Blake!
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    Anyhow, that description is not INTp, as supported by Cone (INTp).
    I did not say that. It is very INTp. I am only against these types of descriptions because they often miss things and exaggerate others. For example, someone awhile back wrote an ENTj description, and I could only find one negative trait out of a whole mess of positive ones.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    On that note... recentley I haven't been able to get the Russian site translation to work. I get on to the main page, but if I click onto a link, I get an error message.

    Anyone else have that problem?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    Default Re: Is this intp description good/accurate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    This goes to show that out Sara is a very special girl. The description here is certainly flattering, and perhaps a bit too flattering. I'm not surprised the ENTps identify with this description (ENTps identify with every description - especially those that are particularly flattering :wink, but I actually see very little ENTp in here.
    Actually that's not quite true. ENTps like to be unbiased and examine those types of things and question themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    The Critical INTp

    “A red breasted robin in a cage puts all the world in a rage.” Though William Blake may not have been thinking of an INTp as he wrote the line quoted it makes a charming metaphor for this type. Though the INTp may break down intellectual and social barriers odds are he will feel like he never took flight. He is an effective artist of the world, always looking for ways that he might change it to better heed his needs. He is an intellectual dreamer so lost in his own world that when shaken from his mind me may at first appear lost and distant.
    This is something I've heard verbalized by many INTps, among them our Cone. I suspect that, if we were to follow the train of thought that leads to this mindset, we would find this is based on Ni, as thisis a trait that INTps share with INFps.
    This actually describes me quite often too. I just totally block everything else out but my thoughts and can completely ignore my surroundings. ENTps will often describe themselves as the more introverted of the extroverts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    ]An eloquent and effective speaker, he can make the most mundane things seem quite amazing with his extravagant verbal skills.
    INTps are usually not so gifted verbally, from my observation. They tend to be somewhat awkward (dare I say it, nerdy) and even tactless in conversation. Many do have a gift for language, but tend to express themselves much better through written than spoken word. I've also heard people complain that INTps can carry an affrontery of coldness, apathy, and bemusement which might put warmer types (feelers, mostly) ill at ease. We they try to be light-hearted, they much of thetime end up looking affected or dorky - which can actually be rather charming if it isn't accompanied by arrogance or cynicism (which, I'm sorry to say,is often the case).
    I pretty much agree with that entire statement. I know a charming dorking INTp, he is quite fun to be around. At first glance you'd never think this jovial looking guy could know so much. He's very modest in his appearance and his demeaner. I'm more the one can be a very eloquent speaker. I like the attention .

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by BlakeTheFlake
    ]The INTp shows an intense interest in religion and is more often than not delving into his studies of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and any other religion ancient or modern that strikes his interest. He shows a mish mash of beliefs and usually does not commit to one religion or the other.
    Interestingly enough, more than half the ITps I know are admitted Atheists.
    My interest is more in cultures and I'm not really interested in studying in religions in detail, just how they impact society and culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBlake
    ]Socially he is charming and charismatic.
    This is a tad bit misleading. INTps can indeed be surprisingly sociable and charming... however, most will tend to be standoffish, and typically rather shy. Most INTps I know do exhibit the desire and ability to interact socially pretty effectively, but often cross the line between effectively and smoothly - that is to say, INTps usually get where they want to be, socially, but more often than not, rarely value social interaction as much as other types. As a result, INTps may feel socially well-off, but only because they tend not to go after too wide a social circle to begin with.
    I'd agree with that. The INTp I know will tend to sit off to the side at a party and have intimate conversations while I'm looking for something new to do every 5 minutes. I actually dislike things like bars and big parties. I much prefer quiet sociable evenings with some good friends. Not always the case when I was younger though. I've gotten a lot shyer as I've gotten older...wierd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by BlakeTheBarber
    ] The INTp puts up barriers and will rarely let them down. He is very guarded and worried that people are judging him because he himself is constantly quietly observing humans. The INTp is very skeptical about love, and though he wants more than anything to love, when he does he thinks himself foolish and quickly backs out of the relationship. As a rule he keeps a distance between himself and his friends. One of his biggest fears is to rely on someone emotionally.
    This seems quite accurate.
    This is sort of half true for the ENTp too. I may take more risks though but I am definately a lot more guarded than many I know. I fear to rely on someone period. Its such a sensitive thing for me to give my love to someone, I need to be really really really sure before I totally trust them enough to completely let my guard down. I'm in always in observation mode when it comes to people. Its like I'm driven to understand what makes them tick so I can break them down to something logical I can understand. I wonder what this is all about. It sounds like INTps are the same way. Could it be that we are absorbing information through intuitive thinking processes rather than sensing so we can't understand the world unless we do this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by Blakeotomy
    ]Perfect chaos is the only way to describe the choice living conditions for the INTp. He will leave the laundry and dishes undone, but the small important things to him are kept in perfect order. It is not uncommon for him to alphabetize and categorize his movie and book collections. The INTp will collect and study odd things such as, fossils, rocks, and old photographs. Things that most people might find boring are quite fascinating and important to him. He is bothered if he finds such small important things out of order and prone to fly into a rage if they are touched by one other than himself.
    This holds up pretty well now that I think about it.
    Some similarities except for the whole collecting thing. A lot of the reasons I collect things is because I can't be bothered to throw them out. I really do enjoy exploring interesting things at times though. I go through what I call my phases. For a while I will get really into History, then I'm focused on painting for awhile, or on the time sucking vortex of a computer of mine. Many times I will pick up on things from where I left off but unfortunately, I have to be in the mood to do it or it becomes a chore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by HittheBlakes!CriedMsHutchinson
    ]The INTp is incredibly instinctive. He often knows what the out come of any given situation will be. He rarely gets himself into grave trouble for this reason. He is aware of this ability but is often unwilling to share it if he has not been taken seriously in this aspect in the past.
    This seems to be describing Ni, and holds up pretty well.

    All this said, I think such descriptions are generally helpful to those individuals just discovering Socionics and trying to uncover their own type. Functional descriptions, though more impressive, are often rather dubious once we attach colloquial (and hence, comprehensible) connotations to the abstract functions. People identify with descriptions of people - not descriptions of the activities of an abstract set of preferential instincts, working in a very intricate combination. Functional analysis can be used to put a framework over the behavior, but to denote behavior as a result of functions is a fallacy. Goodbye, cute lemings.
    I think its interesting but I didn't know INTps and ENTps were that much a like. I know the biggest things I see are the differences between me and the dorky type of INTp is that I may come off more snobbish at times; he comes across as less threatening; he reads more; he takes more crap than I would; and he keeps a larger psychological distance from people than I do. Like, I will talk about my feelings etc. and you can tell that's an uncomfortable subject for him.

    He'd much rather talk about details of world war II or some other type of topic that didn't involve him personally. Which is fine by me because I love those knowledge filled kinds of conversations.

    He kicks the crap out of everyone playing trivial pursuit but I can hold my own against him in games like scrabble and monopoly. Oh, and I totally kick his ass in first person shooter games.

    I didn't quite realize though what an interest they had in human nature. Explains why he was so interested in Myers-Briggs when I introduced it to him. Most of the guy's I know blew it off and weren't really interested.

    He can be quite talkative if you get him going. But he's one person I don't mind listening to because what he is usually saying is very interesting and in plain english.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    Anyhow, that description is not INTp, as supported by Cone (INTp).
    I did not say that. It is very INTp. I am only against these types of descriptions because they often miss things and exaggerate others. For example, someone awhile back wrote an ENTj description, and I could only find one negative trait out of a whole mess of positive ones.
    That's strange because you said you cannot identify yourself with the intp description in question. So how can it be very INTp. Unless you are suggesting you are not INTp.

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    I do not identify with only SOME things, like a paragraph or two. Those are the spots of which I think Sycophant put in observations that only apply to a subset of all INTps. Everything else I identify with, and that is enough to prove the INTpness of the description.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    OK. It wasn't so clear before from what you said. But now it is.

    But do you accept this as an intp trait:

    When feeling sociable he will approach others with child like enthusiasm

    I didn't imagine this to be a intp quality

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    Default Re: Is this intp description good/accurate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    This goes to show that out Sara is a very special girl.
    If Cone had written the description, would you have said that "this goes to show that our Cone is a very special guy"? I think not, since you don't fancy guys. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    OK. It wasn't so clear before from what you said. But now it is.

    But do you accept this as an intp trait:

    When feeling sociable he will approach others with child like enthusiasm

    I didn't imagine this to be a intp quality
    What, feeling sociable? :wink:

    Um, I would say that that is true, but only to those of us who are INTp. Perhaps it is not obvious to outside observers?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    OK. It wasn't so clear before from what you said. But now it is.

    But do you accept this as an intp trait:

    When feeling sociable he will approach others with child like enthusiasm

    I didn't imagine this to be a intp quality
    What, feeling sociable? :wink:

    Um, I would say that that is true, but only to those of us who are INTp. Perhaps it is not obvious to outside observers?
    It appears you do not agree with the quote. The quote says:
    When feeling sociable he will approach others with child like enthusiasm

    The quote says INTps approach others with a child like enthusiasm (when feeling sociable), which is an observable behavior.

    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that there is nothing observable to outsiders when an INTp is feeling sociable.

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    What I am saying is that the description does not indicate how others see INTps in that situation, and that perhaps the "child-like enthusiasm" is only our perception of ourselves. I also think that child-like immaturity is a central part of the INTp's behavior.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Allow me to point out that I'm not native to the English language. :wink:

    Haha, I was also trying to be far less negative than I am most of the time. I over did it yay!

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    I actually did like how you balanced the positive and negative traits.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Your knowledge of INTps scares me.
    I swear I think I was one in a past life.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlakeBookerton
    If Cone had written the description, would you have said that "this goes to show that our Cone is a very special guy"? I think not, since you don't fancy guys. :wink:
    What the hell are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    I actually did like how you balanced the positive and negative traits.
    Did I do that?

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    Yes you did. Now be happy about yourself.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    No. No, I don't think that is a very good idea even if I could be. I loathe egos.

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    Whateva. Self-fulfilling prophecies, says Joy.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Default Re: Is this intp description good/accurate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    This goes to show that out Sara is a very special girl.
    If Cone had written the description, would you have said that "this goes to show that our Cone is a very special guy"? I think not, since you don't fancy guys. :wink:
    I initially asked cone to write the description, but he recommended csaky instead since he was busy with school at that time. I asked her and she wrote a description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    I actually did like how you balanced the positive and negative traits.
    You seem to have mostly pulled away from your original statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Most of that reflects how she functions herself and not how all INTps function.
    Two apparantly contradictory statements.

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    I'm a contradictory kind of guy, Hugo.

    Let's just write a new one or something. Only this time, let's get a group of INTps to collaborate on it.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    I think that is a very good idea Cone.

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    Cool. Do you think you could round up some INTps?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Yeah, I think so.

    Love the sig by the way!

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    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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