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Thread: Political affiliation and socionic type

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    Default Political affiliation and socionic type

    Betas are the traditional leftists in the socio-sphere (or whatever) I don't see how people don't see this. Nothing really gets as pure left-wing as Betas. Deltas, the polar opposite- are the moral conservative right-wingers. Again, most "therapy" in the West consists of Deltas trying to tell Betas what to do. Gammas are traditional libertarians and alphas are democratic/a blend of everything else, really. Almost anti-political.

    A lot of people think they are liberal when they are really conservative and vice-versa. It's kind of funny. The criteria they base their beliefs on is pretty superficial and shows little respect for the original meaning of the terms.

    There are exceptions to this rule, don't get me wrong. But generally I believe it's true.

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    [quote=BulletsAndDoves;542268]Betas are the traditional leftists in the socio-sphere (or whatever) I don't see how people don't see this. Nothing really gets as pure left-wing as Betas. Deltas, the polar opposite- are the moral conservative right-wingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Again, most "therapy" in the West consists of Deltas trying to tell Betas what to do. Gammas are traditional libertarians and alphas are democratic/a blend of everything else, really. Almost anti-political.
    Lol. I think mental health in general (by nature of how the education for it is set up) inherently caters towards Deltas, especially the rationals. Spirituality and the sort of "informal" mental health gets carried by Beta Ps and finds a more rational approach through the Delta Ps (Rick sinking his teeth into the Enneagram )

    Anyway, my current shrink (who is useless) is LSE. One of my LSE friends is studying to be a psychiatrist (or rather, to get into medicine, which requires really high grades due to all the Gammas wanting to be rich doctors). My EII friend (who actually might be ESI) likewise devours books on psychology, and AFAIK is aiming for some sort of work that isn't psychiatry.

    Also, Alphas tend towards eclecticism. We mix and match and formulate our own ideas. (In my case, I can't be bothered caring who's controlling my life But my LII friend is decidedly somethingorother. Politics /shrug)

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    There are exceptions to this rule, don't get me wrong. But generally I believe it's true.
    Good take.

    Great post, man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Betas are the traditional leftists in the socio-sphere (or whatever) I don't see how people don't see this. Nothing really gets as pure left-wing as Betas. Deltas, the polar opposite- are the moral conservative right-wingers. Again, most "therapy" in the West consists of Deltas trying to tell Betas what to do. Gammas are traditional libertarians and alphas are democratic/a blend of everything else, really. Almost anti-political.

    A lot of people think they are liberal when they are really conservative and vice-versa. It's kind of funny. The criteria they base their beliefs on is pretty superficial and shows little respect for the original meaning of the terms.

    There are exceptions to this rule, don't get me wrong. But generally I believe it's true.
    It's not really type related. I still don't get the "conservative" bend that people assign Delta sometimes. I don't think type has to do with it at all, it might show how we justify or explain why they are a certain political affiliation, but this is almost like saying type indicates all these other preferences, like religion. And it doesn't... You put a little back door in your post to say "Well, there are some exceptions..." But really, it's because it's non-correlative. Like, if you went and found all the Beta in Mississippi, and assuming that type is basically evenly spread out as it is hypothesized here, I doubt they would be the liberals that you believe. I honestly don't see where you get that Betas are more liberal in any sense, nothing about them seems indicative of one way or another.

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    If you were to get a certain Communist leader and a certain Fascist leader of the 20th century, it would be possible to have two Betas with one having a left-wing approach and the other a right-wing approach. Both leaders brought significant changes to their countries, so neither was conservative in that respect. But it is of course possible to make few changes and be left-wing or right-wing.

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    I really don't think it's type-related.
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    Yeah, I know people that lean in both directions. My best friend is religious, though not overly so. Another EII I know is a nun. Another EII nearly punched his brother-in-law b/c he won't stop insinuating that his family is "missing" something b/c they're not religious, and every chance he gets he tries to indoctrinate his daughter with some sort of crap. Basically looks down his nose at them while praying that someday they'll "see the light." Pretty much every SLI I've met so far has been "Fuck religion."

    My LSE friend's EIE mother is incessantly telling her she's going to hell b/c she doesn't take her children to church (and she has a tattoo - that's also a swift ticket to damnation around here). My best friend's beta parents are religious, but not in-your-face with it. My EIE-LSI aunt & uncle disowned their daughter for marrying someone of another religion. (Luckily, over time they got over that.) And there are other betas I know who are quite liberal - I met several at the Shambhala center here...

    It depends on how you were raised and your own personal decisions.
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    Not that I think it's type related or anything, but I think that an ENFp's general view falls more in line with with the left than you think.
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    If your country had centuries of maintaining civil rights that I hope people on this forum would consider essential (e.g. that each person is equal before the law etc.), then to campaign to keep these rights would make you a 'conservative' in one sense...but in another country, it would make you a 'liberal'.

    Even in the US in the 1960s, you'd be a liberal to advocate for black people to have the same rights as white people...despite the US constitution two hundred years earlier asserting equality as a founding principle.

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    ...


    fuck religion.


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    In the west of Scotland, it's traditionally the irish catholic community who supported the left wing, political party labour, and the protestants who've supported the right wing conservative party.

    Over time this changed with protestants becoming left wing, and catholics becoming right wing.

    This occured because after world war II, discrimination based on religion (against catholic, and pretty much therefore irish orgin) started to phase out, and combined with catholic schools becoming state run, made it easier for catholics to go to university and therefore receive an equal education to traditional right wing supporters. So now there are rich catholics and poor protestants, giving allegencies in opposite political directions.

    What therefore makes someone left wing or right wing is predominantly self interest. Poor people will naturally favour more left wing policies. There are some rich people who are left wing, but usually these are people who can afford such a moralistic stance. It's easy to be moral and help others when you and your peers have got plenty to go round, and when this happens, traditional right wing parties become a little more left wing to gain these sympathy voters.

    And in continuation, modern immigrants tend to be left wing and political party labour or more militant left wing, infact almost exclusively so, because they are typically less well off and more likely a subject of discrimination due to their religion, culture, perhaps even race (race - which in itself became a politically incorrect term for obvious reasons after world war 2, see germans), and left wing policies here typically help those in typically unfortunate circumstance.

    On that, it makes me wonder if coloured immigrants will eventually blend in over time. It's easy to be of irish origin and catholic and hide this because of how you look. Being a different colour isn't something that can be concealed. It makes me wonder about discrimination based on culture as well as colour (perceived race). That is, culture becomes integrated, but can colour.

    Interestingly, there was recently a lot of public resistance to immigrants being given too many chances. Often they got, and still do but to a lesser extent, preferential treatment over people born here, which is interesting because it's a polar opposite to how previous immigration was treated.

    I wonder if it encourages a lack of enterprise among incomers, but it's left wing, and it seems it's a mixture of all the quadras except possibly gamma.

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    BulletsAndDoves, do you make these statements without bias? Or do you just associate all bad people or those people who have mistreated you as Delta?

    Anyway, this is not type-related.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    What therefore makes someone left wing or right wing is predominantly self interest. Poor people will naturally favour more left wing policies. There are some rich people who are left wing, but usually these are people who can afford such a moralistic stance. It's easy to be moral and help others when you and your peers have got plenty to go round, and when this happens, traditional right wing parties become a little more left wing to gain these sympathy voters.
    This is not true in America. Some of the poorest people are some of the staunchest conservatives. They consistently vote against their self interest, unless you consider "keeping immigrants out" and "fighting socialism/communism/muslims" to be in their self interest.

    About the op though, I think we can all agree that the aristocratic quadras identify more with their political parties/ideologies than the democratic quadras. As long as alphas can explore and invent, and gammas can invest and profit, they shouldn't really care about political ideology. Of course, I'm talking out of my ass, and I can't speak for all the individuals, but this is the narrative that socionics seems to create in the form of quadra progression. In another time or in another place, right wingers could be the betas (read: Nazi Germany). I agree with B&D for the current political climate in America. Again, it's not about the individuals, it's about quadra progression.
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    Alpha = Socialism
    Beta = Dictatorship
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    My views to tend to be fairly liberal, both on the social and economic axes.

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    I am an idealist who sees the necessity for a right wing government :-)

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    I don't think that specific political beliefs are type related, and that terms like "left-wing" and "right-wing" are particularly unhelpful in that regard.

    I do think, however, that one's overall approach to political issues is related to type - assuming that the individual is concerned with politics in the first place.

    Betas are most likely to have a political philosophy based on replacing the whole "system" with a new one. They are the ones likely to say, when more frustrated/enthusiastic/philosophical/etc that there's no point tinkering with the world as it is and that it's necessary to transform it radically. They are inclined to have a + idealized structure of what the world should be like in terms of politics, economics, society, etc and their political views/actions usually aim at achieving that idealized structure. Now, the precise nature of that + idealized structure will vary according to the individual: it can be anarchism, communism, fascism, nazism, some theocracy - or, also, radical libertarianism, an idealized form of direct democracy, radical environmentalism, etc. That is why those who just "know" how the world (or a country, etc) should be transformed in order to reach "perfection" are most often Betas.

    Gammas are not inclined to even see things in those terms; they tend to see a given political, economic or social reality not as a static structure that needs to be replaced with another, but as a collection of dynamic processes. They are more inclined to political reform and improvement, rather than to radical structural change ("reform" as opposed to "revolution").

    Deltas, when concerned with politics, tend to focus on improvement but at a more immediate, micro-management level - + not +. Beta and Delta political goals often seem to coincide, because what is actually happening is that they are talking past each other: Betas will at most see the "micro" improvements that Deltas focus on as a consequence of their radical structural upheaval, while Deltas will not even be aware of the extent of Beta goals. That is the context of Lenin referring to "useful idiots".

    My perception of Alphas is that they will share the broad views of Betas, but with less inclination to actually impose one specific structure; they will be inclined to keep experimenting with it (that was the case even with the French Revolution).
    Last edited by Expat; 07-20-2009 at 11:36 PM. Reason: typos
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Alpha = Socialism
    Beta = Dictatorship
    Gamma = Conservatives
    Delta = Anarchism
    That's not too bad imo, except that I'd call Delta "extremely decentralized government" rather than "anarchism".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I don't think that specific political beliefs are type related, and that terms like "left-wing" and "right-wing" are particularly unhelpful in that regard.

    I do think, however, that one's overall approach to political issues is related to type - assuming that the individual is concerned with politics in the first place.
    I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Not that I think it's type related or anything, but I think that an ENFp's general view falls more in line with with the left than you think.
    I agree with this.
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    Alpha = Socialism
    Beta = Dictatorship
    Gamma = Conservatives
    Delta = Anarchism
    In general I agree:
    N-INTj = Socialists
    F-ENFj = Dictator
    N-INTp = Conservative
    N-ENFp = Anarchist

    But there are some exceptions:
    ESFjs can be conservative.
    INFps are in no way dictators.
    ENTjs are often liberal.
    ESTjs are in no way anarchists.

    I think it depends on the subtype a lot.

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    I don't think it's type related, I would expect any quadra to embrace any system of government for various reasons. I think it's foolishness to say one quadra prefers one system or is more right/left wing than another. If you look at it from the viewpoint of quadra roles, however:

    Alpha: Offering alternatives to the existing system for the sake of something new
    Beta: Fighting the existing system, regardless of what it is. They WILL find a reason for revolution.
    Gamma: Trimming the fat within the existing system and making it work as designed.
    Delta: Embrace current system, possibly encouraging it to expand.

    All the people I know with strong political affiliations are rationals.
    The irrationals seem not to care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Pancakes View Post
    I don't think it's type related, I would expect any quadra to embrace any system of government for various reasons. I think it's foolishness to say one quadra prefers one system or is more right/left wing than another. If you look at it from the viewpoint of quadra roles, however:

    Alpha: Offering alternatives to the existing system for the sake of something new
    I would find this to be accurate. Although I wouldn't say the current system of government/society is completely broken, I do admit that I have this random urge/bias to embrace views contrary to the mainstream, almost just for the sake of it!
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