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Thread: can we have one more topic on Fi versus Fe?

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    Default can we have one more topic on Fi versus Fe?

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    Ok, let me take a shot at as a function of empathy:

    I feel great empathy for people to the extent that I literally feel their pain. One example: someone in class acts like a total idiot and people laugh- I cannot laugh because I'm embarrassed. I pick up that emotion. This happens regardless of whether or not I like the person. I would feel the same empathy for a killer who is mobbed by the crowd or mistreated. It's not that I try to, it just happens.

    I know there is more to Fi, but I will just throw that out there for now.

    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Okay, I have .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Okay, I have .
    Care to elaborate and contribute to the thread?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    And for Joy because she can't right now....



    Oww, that hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sycophant


    And for Joy because she can't right now....



    Oww, that hurt.
    Haha, you are the BIGGEST whore, dear! Suck it up and share what it feels like!

    Ha!
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Edited for gayness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    I feel great empathy for people to the extent that I literally feel their pain. One example: someone in class acts like a total idiot and people laugh- I cannot laugh because I'm embarrassed. I pick up that emotion. This happens regardless of whether or not I like the person. I would feel the same empathy for a killer who is mobbed by the crowd or mistreated. It's not that I try to, it just happens.
    I would act like you in this situation. I would do it because I would feel the treatment is totally unfair. I mean I never laugh at anybody who is treated unfairly or not given real justice. I could never be a part of a mob or something. I'm not sure if I'm showing Fi here or just apply "logic of fairness". I might be more like a "fair judge" than empath or something. I tend to side with the underdog though so I'm not completely unbiased.

    Sometimes I don't show much empathy especially in spontaneous situations. For example if someone slips and falls I sometimes can't help laughing if it looks funny...I don't want to but the situation might just look too funny. I know it must have been painful and I should not laugh and I feel embarassed. I have laughed in other "serious" situations too...and I can show positive and negative "passion" sometimes without understanding how this affects other people. This might mean my Fe is stronger than my Fi...or not

    Also if someone does something stupid on purpose and despite warnings and gets his "hands burned" I'm more like "I told you!" or "you should have seen that coming...now suffer the consequences!". Not very empath more like Fe judgement or something. I can even get angry at this person instead of feeling sorry...

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    I feel great empathy for people to the extent that I literally feel their pain. One example: someone in class acts like a total idiot and people laugh- I cannot laugh because I'm embarrassed. I pick up that emotion. This happens regardless of whether or not I like the person. I would feel the same empathy for a killer who is mobbed by the crowd or mistreated. It's not that I try to, it just happens.
    I would act like you in this situation. I would do it because I would feel the treatment is totally unfair. I mean I never laugh at anybody who is treated unfairly or not given real justice. I could never be a part of a mob or something. I'm not sure if I'm showing Fi here or just apply "logic of fairness". I might be more like a "fair judge" than empath or something. I tend to side with the underdog though so I'm not completely unbiased.

    Sometimes I don't show much empathy especially in spontaneous situations. For example if someone slips and falls I sometimes can't help laughing if it looks funny...I don't want to but the situation might just look too funny. I know it must have been painful and I should not laugh and I feel embarassed. I have laughed in other "serious" situations too...and I can show positive and negative "passion" sometimes without understanding how this affects other people. This might mean my Fe is stronger than my Fi...or not

    Also if someone does something stupid on purpose and despite warnings and gets his "hands burned" I'm more like "I told you!" or "you should have seen that coming...now suffer the consequences!". Not very empath more like Fe judgement or something. I can even get angry at this person instead of feeling sorry...
    Ditto on what Trans said on what Kim said but I even have a little sympathy for the enemy sometimes too. But, sometimes I don't. Just depends on who the enemy is and how selfish they are.

    Siding with the underdog is not being unbiased, its being biased towards the underdog. I don't find ISTps particularly sensitive to other people's feelings. At least not close to what I've seen from NFs. I don't know if I'm sensitive to them so much as aware of them so take them into consideration. I don't feel what other people feel, I just sense it and sometimes get flashes of images but there is no emotional attachment to it. I actually find that ISTps hurt my feelings all the time. Its their negativity and sometimes condescending attitude towards me. If I actually listened to my ISTp father I wouldn't have taken any of the chances that paid off in my life.

    I know I would feel bad if I hurt someone inadvertently, but I've had to deal with so many petty jealousies at this point that I tend to just stick to logic at this point and won't feel sorry for those types if logic dictates I need to take some action against them.
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    In the situation with the student, I would probably say or do something to aleviate the situation, subtly put the class in their place by making them realize how immature they're being. If the student being laughed at wasn't totally mortified I might flash him a grin so he knows I'm on his side and he shouldn't take the situation so seriously. I think standing there with a sad expression does more harm than good. No one feels any better. If he's a total outcast, I might eat lunch with him too if it was practical. I wouldn't bring up what happened. It's irrelevant, and he needs to understand that. I've learned the hard way though that this can TOTALLY backfire and it's often best not to get that involved or show him that much attention.

    I think Fi is a lot more than empathy. Fi is about what people's best interests, not just their emotions. That's rather shallow. Fi is caring about other people's position. Fi also cares about how other people's needs and wants... where they are in the situation and what will become of them... their overall position.

    Anyways... I am quite empathic AND I have Fi. I feel pain when others feel pain, and I am even more aware of other people's best interests, and I think about their positions. Remember what I tell my 6 year old about kids who pick on him? "Honey, tell him it hurts your feelings when he treats you like that and nicely ask him to stop. Remember, when people are mean it's because they're afraid of something. That kid was probably mean to you because he's afraid that people will like you more than him or that you're smarter than he is. If you are mean to him back when he's mean to you, it will only get worse. If you treat him like people like him and he's smart, he may see that there's nothing to be afraid of, and he might stop being mean."
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    The Extraverted Feeling Type

    Extraverted feeling is based upon accepted or traditional social values and opinions. It involves a conforming, adjusting response to objective circumstances that strives for harmonious relations with the world. Because it depends so much on external stimuli rather than upon true subjective preferences, such feeling can sometimes seem cold, 'unfeeling', artificial or put on for effect.

    The extraverted feeling type follows fashion and seeks to harmonize personal feelings with general social values. Thinking is always subordinate to feeling and is ignored or repressed if intellectual conclusions fail to confirm the convictions of the heart. When this type is extreme or neurotic, feeling may become gushing or extravagant and dependent upon momentary enthusiasms that may quickly turn about with changing circumstances. Such a person may therefore seem hysterical, fickle, moody or even to be suffering from multiple personality. Repressed thinking may also erupt in infantile, negative, obsessive ways. This can lead to the attribution of dreaded characteristics to the very objects or people that are most loved and valued.

    The Introverted Feeling Type

    Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.

    The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.
    According to this I'm Fi, NOT Fe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    I feel great empathy for people to the extent that I literally feel their pain. One example: someone in class acts like a total idiot and people laugh- I cannot laugh because I'm embarrassed. I pick up that emotion. This happens regardless of whether or not I like the person. I would feel the same empathy for a killer who is mobbed by the crowd or mistreated. It's not that I try to, it just happens.
    This is not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Basic Functions

    Natural and complete understanding of the nature of relations/attitudes between any people, their harmony and disharmony. Skill to understand desires and interests of people. Excellent understanding of the various aspects of relations between people. Excellent understanding of a person’s attitude towards you.


    Understanding the most concealed emotions of other people. Skill to understand the mood of other people and to influence it. Ability to bring out the necessary emotions in yourself and other people. Bright emotionalism. Skill to create around yourself joyful and holiday/celebratory mood. Raising the energy of the surrounding people. Talkativeness. Tendency to avoid negative emotions. Jovial merry person. Wealth of sincere experiences and feelings. Romanticism, passion. Bright and strong emotionalism. Cheerfulness.
    according to this my Fe is stronger...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    This is not
    I agree.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    hey, curious soul

    how you doing

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    I want to put these next to each other because I'm having trouble relating these two descriptions.

    The Introverted Feeling Type

    Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.

    The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.

    and this one:
    Fi: The second function of the ENFp is Fi, by which subjective feeling substantiates itself through various ethical processes. With this function, it is possible to deconstruct and disassemble various levels of emotions, feelings, and moods in order to gauge a sense of their inner workings or how they habitually function. Probably the most powerful aspect of Fi is the forming of a subjective value system by which one uses to connect to others through a maintained and refined view of moral right, wrong, and good; other important features of this function include the ability to word statements and express emotions in the most concise and ethical manner that could be implemented to appeal to the ethical processes of others. Being an introverted function, Fi has an active ability to self-sustain itself and moves actively between an subjective emotional world located in the future and past in order to sustain itself as an active function.
    This is confusing me, so I'm going to read it a few times and digest it before I write more.[/quote]
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    I guess what I don't get in the first description is that it says Fi makes people appear cold and indifferent on the surface. I've always been told the opposite about myself - that people can tell how I feel about anything and everything just by looking at me.

    Maybe I'm not Fi?

    Where the two descriptions seem to be maybe (not sure) in conflict is this part of the second description:
    Probably the most powerful aspect of Fi is the forming of a subjective value system by which one uses to connect to others through a maintained and refined view of moral right, wrong, and good;
    It seems like if Fi causes people to connect with others, then it is not so cold and indifferent, and is unlikely to be stiflng and oppressive to others. Or it doesn't cause people to connect with others.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    I'm so confused!!!
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    Edited for gayness.
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    I'll be happy to stand corrected, surely, but let me ask this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky
    Fi: The second function of the ENFp is Fi, by which subjective feeling substantiates itself through various ethical processes. With this function, it is possible to deconstruct and disassemble various levels of emotions, feelings, and moods in order to gauge a sense of their inner workings or how they habitually function. Probably the most powerful aspect of Fi is the forming of a subjective value system by which one uses to connect to others through a maintained and refined view of moral right, wrong, and good; other important features of this function include the ability to word statements and express emotions in the most concise and ethical manner that could be implemented to appeal to the ethical processes of others. Being an introverted function, Fi has an active ability to self-sustain itself and moves actively between an subjective emotional world located in the future and past in order to sustain itself as an active function.
    How would this be possible without a great deal of empathy? Don't I have to actually experience emotions in others to be able to deconstruct and disassemble them. I do relate to this very much, especially when I observe the interplay of my and and my ethical framework is constructed like this, albeit with a dose of rationality brought about by getting older and less idealistic (and more jaded, but that's not a bad thing). I'll have more, but I would be curious to hear about other Fi - dominant types. It seems odd to try and look at Fi as one singular function I'm thinking right now. My Fi works so closely with my Ne....hm....I don't know. I will join the club of the confused, but I insist on the term Fi-ing for lovey-dovey behavior in the chat! Don' t mess with that!
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    Edited for gayness.
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    That description feels more right to me somehow. I guess the showing emotion is moodiness, but I do shy away from drama and excessive (especially negative) emotion so I can see that too.

    Maybe it's because it's more detailed but it makes more sense to me.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Okay, if you don't agree with this stuff, then you might as well start your own psycholgoy theory or something.
    I don't know who you are talking to, but it seems as if it's not about disagreeing so much as about trying to figure it out...ehm. Right?

    Ok, here I am:

    As Secondary (Fi)
    They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Mentor and Bonvivant with the dominant extraverted ethic), because they are active, ever-smiling, often among people. However, their emotionality is quite different than that of rational extraverted ethic types. Both Psychologist and Politician do not like excessive emotions and try to negotiate rather than to awake excitement.
    But look (Fe):

    They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Humanist and Conservator with the dominant introverted ethic) for their strive for good relations with other people, very mild and comfortable manner of communication.
    Don't people say this about ENFps, too? And don't people say that ENFps are charming and enthusiastic, which here is associated with Fe. What about that then? ENFps DO NOT appear cold! So what's up with that association with Fi?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Oh, and I don't show negative emotions usually (IRL IRL IRL!)
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent

    I prefer to listen to people that have typed tens and hundreds of people, rather then to have to remanufacture that which is already known based of the opinions of a itsy-bitsy sample.
    Point taken, but what about as appearing cold and ENFps always said to be warm and enthusiastic and caring? I really am wondering, not dismissing.
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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Hey there!

    STYLe4MotiOn posting under mimi's account.. bear with me

    Extroverted Feeling judges what is 'right' or 'wrong' between the boundaries of how people feel about it.
    A woman Fe will choose a guy that is socially accepted as the ideal man, and will constantly try to improve/change the partner to ultimately reach the goal of a socially 'perfect' partner -- although this will never be complete.
    Like the ENTJ with justice - the work is never done.

    Also, an FJ heavy on the Fe will not easily state what they want, but act diplomatic and include others' opinions and desires in their decision.
    However, this repressed opinion/desire will be projected in what's "right" or "wrong"; Fe's can be narcissistic and completely unaware of what they're doing.

    Introverted Feeling is not limited by these boundaries, therefore they are usually very different from the 'socially accepted' people - they don't follow the norm because 'that's the thing to do'; they are truly independent in this aspect. They will choose a partner no matter what others think of it.
    They'll accept the partner for who he/she is, as long as it's mutual.
    Unhealthy IxFP's will have trouble with their inferior Te, never finding the perfect love, because it doesn't compare to the ideal in their minds.
    "In the arms of an angel
    Fly away from here
    From this dark cold hotel room
    And the endlessness that you fear
    You are pulled from the wreckage
    Of your silent reverie
    You're in the arms of the angel
    May you find some comfort there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Ok, let me take a shot at as a function of empathy:

    I feel great empathy for people to the extent that I literally feel their pain. One example: someone in class acts like a total idiot and people laugh- I cannot laugh because I'm embarrassed. I pick up that emotion. This happens regardless of whether or not I like the person. I would feel the same empathy for a killer who is mobbed by the crowd or mistreated. It's not that I try to, it just happens.

    I know there is more to Fi, but I will just throw that out there for now.

    I call it pity. And I think in a few years when that student comes around, he'll hate you for it.
    thing.

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    lol what are you talking about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied

    let me know if this makes sense, Kim. ENFps and ESFps are pretty much always trying to fight against that , because they aren't so fond of being called out on it etc. (yeah it's irritating!)
    What exactly do you mean? Care to elaborate? I'm slow these days


    Joel, I'm not saying I'm acting on it for one (depending on the situation - I had a similar situation happen in the class I teach the other day and I think I have it down how to react. NeFi works wonder, along with experience. No worries). And it's rather unfair to hate me for a feeling that I cannot help having. Trust me, I'd rather not. [/quote]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by implied

    let me know if this makes sense, Kim. ENFps and ESFps are pretty much always trying to fight against that , because they aren't so fond of being called out on it etc. (yeah it's irritating!)
    What exactly do you mean? Care to elaborate? I'm slow these days


    Joel, I'm not saying I'm acting on it for one (depending on the situation - I had a similar situation happen in the class I teach the other day and I think I have it down how to react. NeFi works wonder, along with experience. No worries). And it's rather unfair to hate me for a feeling that I cannot help having. Trust me, I'd rather not.
    I hate you for others reasons.. don't worry.
    thing.

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    As noted, Introverted Feeling doesn't make us "feel" reasonable. We may not even feel like we're acting on "knowledge." We feel receptive, creative, guided by perceptions we can't explain. We tend to make this distinction, however-- between a rational approach to life and a creative one--because we associate reason so firmly with the left-brain functions, particularly the generalized standards and logical control encouraged by its direct opposite, Extraverted Thinking.

    The situation is complicated by the fact that only 6% of Americans use Introverted Feeling as their primary approach to life. This means that a great many types associate this function largely with its bottom-rung potential for impressionism and sentimentality. The stereotype is particularly common when aesthetic Judgment takes on a moral dimension.

    Moral choices prompted by Introverted Feeling are not derived from legal principles or social obligations that accrue to our roles in the world. They’re derived from the subjective experience of being human, our will to deal with a situation in terms of human ideals. Decisions made on this basis are frequently misunderstood as a product of emotion or a deliberate rejection from structural authority.

    For example, in an episode of the syndicated series La Femme Nikita about a hit woman in training, the heroine is led by Introverted Feeling to ignore statistical risk and rescue the kidnapped child of a fellow recruit. Afterward, her immediate superior counsels, “You’re a good operative, Nikita. Don’t let your humanity get in the way.”

    This is precisely what Introverted Feeling does: it bypasses structural considerations and puts human value first. Such discrimination is unquestionably illogical, but it’s in no way irrational. Indeed, to place human value above statistical risk isn’t possible without the ability to reason.

    [NB: this is why Descartes’ Error is such a great fucking book.]

    One might even suggest that it’s the rational character of Introverted Judgment that separates us from the species who share most of our DNA. Our closest primate relatives can be observed to use Extraverted Judging skills. They recognize a hierarchy of relationships, react to social cues, and sacrifice their options for a wounded mate or an infant. They can be taught to perform calculations, to manipulate signs, to abstract general concepts. But they can’t be taught to defy statistical odds purely for the sake of human value.

    In fact, no one learns to make such decisions by way of formal instructions. As stated, Introverted Feeling is trained by subjective life experience. IFPs, who depend on this function as their primary means of reasoning, need enough objective experience to recognize the moral potential of their Judgment. Without it, they don’t appreciate the difference between purely circumstantial values and values that link them with the larger human enterprise.
    Some of our values, after all, are shaped by a specific context, and they’re irrelevant when such circumstances change. Others are quintessentially human and, as such, unconditional. Unconditional values can’t be erased from the human psyche, no matter what kind of social system is in place. To express them is to see through the divisions external distinctions reinforce.

    One might consider, in this regard, the famous incident in 1880, when Texas Rangers rounded up a group of Apaches in New Mexico and began lynching three an hour until someone revealed the hiding place of their chief. A U.S. Cavalry troop rode in and not only objected to the tactics but arrested the Rangers for murder. These troopers were the “buffalo soldiers,” former slaves who had been recruited for duty on the Western frontier. Hard experience had taught these men a good deal about institutionalized inhumanity.

    Indeed they anguished over the conflict between proving themselves competent soldiers and colluding with their former masters in the kind of discrimination they had known firsthand. This conflict has nothing to do with sentimentality. It measures the basis of collective identity against the criterion of unconditional human value.

    As suggested, Introverted Feeling is not a substitute for Extraverted Judgment. It won’t solve the analytic problems that logic and causal reasoning are designed to address, and it won’t establish a basis for predictable social interactions. But, conversely, it addresses aspects of human reality that Extraverted reasoning cannot.
    pp. 367-369
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    This is a good thread! I'm now rather convinced that the feeling function I am more comfortable with is Fi...I have lots of internalized emotions and I constantly make good/"evil" evaluations based on my internal values not based on values of my environment/culture. I rarely externalize these internal emotions on purpose but they can be spotted if the observer is strong empath and they definately can be spotted from my external behavior and body language.

    I do use Fe at times but I'm not comfortable using it and I can't control it too well. My environment activates and deactivates my Fe instead of me doing it myself or something My Fe can manifest as temporary great passion, overwhelming positive emotion, outburst of negativity or critical evaluations (which I afterwards judge with my Fi and regret them). An outside observer will usually see me as a bit distant but polite Fi user with a good will and good but controlled mood. Sometimes they will see me with great passion or as really negative and critical or even see my outbursts of anger. This might make different people see me a bit differently especially if they haven't spent enough time with me (they can see my controlled Fi or my passionful side or my negative and critical side).

    Based on this, Fe could be my PoLR after all. That would make me most likely an ISTp then I guess.

    Thanks especially to Transigent and implied. Also to others who contributed.

    If I'm wrong with my interpretations please correct me I want to get to the bottom of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MySaviour
    I hate you for others reasons.. don't worry.
    I know you do and I know why you do and suggest that we extend the ignoring to the forum. I don't mind reading your responses, but things of this nature can really stay between you and me.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by MySaviour
    I hate you for others reasons.. don't worry.
    I know you do and I know why you do and suggest that we extend the ignoring to the forum. I don't mind reading your responses, but things of this nature can really stay between you and me.
    Wisen up.

    But yea, /ignore: on.

    Bye.
    thing.

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