IEIs-INFps and Overanalyzing

[Lotus]

The most annoying thing in the world. I never realized that everything I say can and most likely will be interpreted within a framework of supposedly universal rules for social/emotional/behavioral interactions. And the worst part, is that when I'm friends with one they're not afraid to say it out loud. I don't like someone nodding their head, saying “ah huh,” or “interesting,” as I talk to them. It makes me feel like I'm talking to a psychiatrist and they're taking notes on everything I say.

Well now, I don't like feeling observed, monitored, or calculated within a system. I really, really hate someone telling me what I'm doing, feeling, or how I'm reacting to something, especially when they're drawing conclusions on things they can't possibly know.

It's like there's no way to win with you people. Jesus Christ. I can't respond to you, because you just keep doing it. I can't clarify things with you, because every time I think you've understood you just do it over again. I can't ignore you completely, because then I get accused of being indirect, avoidant, evasive. I can't just reject your claims, because then I'm told that I'm too “blind to spot [my] own ‘patterns’” or whatever. I can't just live and breathe around you people. God, everything I do has to mean something. I can't just not return a phone call because I don't feel like it? No, apparently it means ^A) that I have something to hide or ^B) that we're becoming distant or ^C) that I'm bothered by something. Nope. Wrong. I just don't like getting back to people right away. Stop trying to get a reaction out of me. It makes me want to cut you off completely. Is that too hard to understand?? Apparently.

So, can any of you tell my why you do this? Or how it makes you feel when someone isn't receptive to it or whatever?

A typical interaction:

IEI: Makes claim.
Me: (getting pissed off) Rejects it.
IEI. “Case in point.”
Me: (confused and very annoyed) “Uh, what the fuck? No, it's not like that.”
IEI: “You're being obvious. Accept it.” Blah blah they know everything and see right through me blah blah.
Me: (feeling emotionally drained and angered at this point) Cuts off communication temporarily.
IEI: Throws a fit.

Really though, I think that you people think too much. Stop it. Or at least keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't want to know what goes on inside your head. It makes me feel invaded and misinterpreted. The only way to “get me” is to stop analyzing me and start living alongside me. You can't just apply someone to a standard framework or whatever. It doesn't work. I don't know, maybe you guys see something that I don't, but whatever it is, just know that it doesn't apply to everyone you meet. And know that it really hurts people sometimes to be torn apart reaction by reaction as if every little movement correlates to some greater scheme that we can't understand.




P.S. Don't take this thread offensively. I'm just ranting from experience.

[xyz]

The most annoying thing in the world. I never realized that everything I say can and most likely will be interpreted within a framework of supposedly universal rules for social/emotional/behavioral interactions. And the worst part, is that when I'm friends with one they're not afraid to say it out loud. I don't like someone nodding their head, saying “ah huh,” or “interesting,” as I talk to them. It makes me feel like I'm talking to a psychiatrist and they're taking notes on everything I say.

Well now, I don't like feeling observed, monitored, or calculated within a system. I really, really hate someone telling me what I'm doing, feeling, or how I'm reacting to something, especially when they're drawing conclusions on things they can't possibly know.

It's like there's no way to win with you people. Jesus Christ. I can't respond to you, because you just keep doing it. I can't clarify things with you, because every time I think you've understood you just do it over again. I can't ignore you completely, because then I get accused of being indirect, avoidant, evasive. I can't just reject your claims, because then I'm told that I'm too “blind to spot [my] own ‘patterns’” or whatever. I can't just live and breathe around you people. God, everything I do has to mean something. I can't just not return a phone call because I don't feel like it? No, apparently it means ^A) that I have something to hide or ^B) that we're becoming distant or ^C) that I'm bothered by something. Nope. Wrong. I just don't like getting back to people right away. Stop trying to get a reaction out of me. It makes me want to cut you off completely. Is that too hard to understand?? Apparently.

So, can any of you tell my why you do this? Or how it makes you feel when someone isn't receptive to it or whatever?

A typical interaction:

IEI: Makes claim.
Me: (getting pissed off) Rejects it.
IEI. “Case in point.”
Me: (confused and very annoyed) “Uh, what the fuck? No, it's not like that.”
IEI: “You're being obvious. Accept it.” Blah blah they know everything and see right through me blah blah.
Me: (feeling emotionally drained and angered at this point) Cuts off communication temporarily.
IEI: Throws a fit.

Really though, I think that you people think too much. Stop it. Or at least keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't want to know what goes on inside your head. It makes me feel invaded and misinterpreted. The only way to “get me” is to stop analyzing me and start living alongside me. You can't just apply someone to a standard framework or whatever. It doesn't work. I don't know, maybe you guys see something that I don't, but whatever it is, just know that it doesn't apply to everyone you meet. And know that it really hurts people sometimes to be torn apart reaction by reaction as if every little movement correlates to some greater scheme that we can't understand.




P.S. Don't take this thread offensively. I'm just ranting from experience.

I think you've just been talking to the people here too long. You noticed some kinda "disease" floating around here, that overanal disease.

You could look at this way though: At least everything you say isn't ignored

[redbaron]

funny, Allie. I do over-analyze but I RARELY say it out loud. I agree with Mimosa that the conversation and whole monitoring/calculating thing sounds more like an ESE. Most IEIs I know tend to be a lot more accepting than that. Maybe it's just this particular person you know?

Hmmm, I do make listening noises when someone's talking to me...

I dated (happily and was best friends with for years) an ESI in college and high school. He was amazing.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

We're not doing that though when we say 'Interesting' or 'Uh-huh.' We just really do find it interesting. As for over-analyzing, well yeah - IEI does that, but only so we can take the most idealized actions necessary, somewhat. As for hating psychiatrists, we dislike them as much as you. IEIs are pretty perceptive and smart as for how the world systems and governments operate, albiet in a generalized, white-washed manner. What is truly needed and what is not, we seem to filter out those things pretty well.

[07490]

The most annoying thing in the world. I never realized that everything I say can and most likely will be interpreted within a framework of supposedly universal rules for social/emotional/behavioral interactions. And the worst part, is that when I'm friends with one they're not afraid to say it out loud. I don't like someone nodding their head, saying “ah huh,” or “interesting,” as I talk to them. It makes me feel like I'm talking to a psychiatrist and they're taking notes on everything I say.

Well now, I don't like feeling observed, monitored, or calculated within a system. I really, really hate someone telling me what I'm doing, feeling, or how I'm reacting to something, especially when they're drawing conclusions on things they can't possibly know.

It's like there's no way to win with you people. Jesus Christ. I can't respond to you, because you just keep doing it. I can't clarify things with you, because every time I think you've understood you just do it over again. I can't ignore you completely, because then I get accused of being indirect, avoidant, evasive. I can't just reject your claims, because then I'm told that I'm too “blind to spot [my] own ‘patterns’” or whatever. I can't just live and breathe around you people. God, everything I do has to mean something. I can't just not return a phone call because I don't feel like it? No, apparently it means ^A) that I have something to hide or ^B) that we're becoming distant or ^C) that I'm bothered by something. Nope. Wrong. I just don't like getting back to people right away. Stop trying to get a reaction out of me. It makes me want to cut you off completely. Is that too hard to understand?? Apparently.

So, can any of you tell my why you do this? Or how it makes you feel when someone isn't receptive to it or whatever?

A typical interaction:

IEI: Makes claim.
Me: (getting pissed off) Rejects it.
IEI. “Case in point.”
Me: (confused and very annoyed) “Uh, what the fuck? No, it's not like that.”
IEI: “You're being obvious. Accept it.” Blah blah they know everything and see right through me blah blah.
Me: (feeling emotionally drained and angered at this point) Cuts off communication temporarily.
IEI: Throws a fit.

Really though, I think that you people think too much. Stop it. Or at least keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't want to know what goes on inside your head. It makes me feel invaded and misinterpreted. The only way to “get me” is to stop analyzing me and start living alongside me. You can't just apply someone to a standard framework or whatever. It doesn't work. I don't know, maybe you guys see something that I don't, but whatever it is, just know that it doesn't apply to everyone you meet. And know that it really hurts people sometimes to be torn apart reaction by reaction as if every little movement correlates to some greater scheme that we can't understand.




P.S. Don't take this thread offensively. I'm just ranting from experience.

I found this to be pretty accurate:

“Asymmetric relationship. One partner (the beneficiary*) finds he is constantly trying to solve the other person's (the benefactor's) problems and is overly emotionally involved in the other partner's life — always waiting for a reward from the benefactor. The benefactor, on the other hand, is largely unaware of this and wonders why the beneficiary is so dependent and so sensitive to the things he (the benefactor) says.”

Relations of benefit are interesting, but kind of exhausting if you're the benefactor. And yes Numbers, I do think there is some sort of connection that can make it worthwhile. In the end it just comes down to the individuals involved.



*Semantics: Relations of Request (+/-) = Relations of benefit. I had to change transmitter to benefactor and recipient to beneficiary, but it's essentially the same thing (for those who didn't already know).

Hey, you wrote this before.

[xyz]

Too bad I don't have "big cheezey grin" images handy, Mimosa.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Gilly]

See, when I analyze people it's because I want to understand them, how their minds work; not because I think they are lying to me, but because I want to understand the inner workings of their minds that even they might not be consciously aware of.

[strrrng]

One of my favorite things about IEIs is how accepting and non-judgmental they are. For the most part, with rare exceptions, they just seem to take it for granted that people are how they are, without the whole self-righteous "you're wrong and need to change" sort of thing that goes on with some other types. Even when giving advice or making evaluations it hardly ever comes across as judgmental.

I agree with this. I'm probably one of the most passive people you'll meet, when it comes to making judgments on how good/bad things are. I may perceive something about a person, but more often than not I simply accept it as a theme of theirs or whatever, and move on. It just doesn't occur to me to categorize or cohere things according to whatever subjective assessment I may make of them. Even if someone is revealing a shitty side to me, it makes no more difference than another; and I respect their authenticity for being aware of it.

So, I can't say I've ever felt this sort of thing in my interactions with them. I've never had one read into my actions something that wasn't there. I'm analytical of those I don't trust also, so I guess I'd assume it was lack of trust of me, if I was treated like that.

Right. I don't find myself deliberately analytical of most people, on a general level; things just occur to me spontaneously, I see them, move on. And the relevant stuff about people is self-displayed most of the time IMO, so I never really feel compelled to "look inside" them. It's only when the processes going on don't naturally align, that I begin to doubt someone and potentially analyze them. I think it's pretty indicative when someone can offset my natural state, in regard to assessing things (kind of like someone who can piss off the most laid-back, accepting person).

[Wittmont]

Thanks for this post Allie. It actually is a damn interesting one from a socionics point of view. It falls very much in line with my personal experience with ESI's as well. The description of a Benefit relationship (ESI/IEI in my case ofc.) is actually how I discovered socionics, it just was so damn accurate I had to explore socionics further. Intertype relationships is one reason I DO think socionics is on to something, even if I feel Model A is not quite accurate enough to fully describe the observed behaviour and especially lacking when it comes to explaining the types themselves.

The most annoying thing in the world. I never realized that everything I say can and most likely will be interpreted within a framework of supposedly universal rules for social/emotional/behavioral interactions.

Heh, this is just the IEI being himself and seeing things through his NIi+Fe framework with his hint of Ti Hidden Agenda trying to piece things together into a larger understanding. What upsets you is that the sum effect of this is probably that the IEI's reactions tickle your Ne PoLR.

It could also be that for some reason the Observant function ( in IEI's) is stimulated AND activated in the Beneficiary in relations of Benefit and that is the reason Beneficiaries tend to annoy Benefactors by pointing out things that are unvalued to the Benefactor.

And the worst part, is that when I'm friends with one they're not afraid to say it out loud. I don't like someone nodding their head, saying “ah huh,” or “interesting,” as I talk to them. It makes me feel like I'm talking to a psychiatrist and they're taking notes on everything I say.

Why shouldn't a friend speak things straight out? To an IEI I think that is a natural reaction when they see a 'solid piece of Ni'. SLE's greatly appreciate this in IEI's while it seems ESI's have a hard time with this exact thing.

Also the psychiatrist thing is an interesting projection on your part lol The IEI is simply accepting the information he is recieving while NOT putting a value judgement on it.

Well now, I don't like feeling observed, monitored, or calculated within a system. I really, really hate someone telling me what I'm doing, feeling, or how I'm reacting to something, especially when they're drawing conclusions on things they can't possibly know.

Ok, this part is where it feels like you are having, or are damn close to having, PoLR hits. I think the IEI actually DOES see you damn well and is able to piece together a lot of things that may seem uncanny to you.

It's like there's no way to win with you people. Jesus Christ. I can't respond to you, because you just keep doing it. I can't clarify things with you, because every time I think you've understood you just do it over again.

Of course. The IEI is simply doing what comes as naturally to him as breathing. The IEI does NOT really understand why YOU get so upset by his observations/comments/outlook. He is only trying to point out what to him is very very clear.

I can't ignore you completely, because then I get accused of being indirect, avoidant, evasive. I can't just reject your claims, because then I'm told that I'm too “blind to spot [my] own ‘patterns’” or whatever.

Yep, this is the IEI using Ni + Fe. Ni for observation (the "patterns") - Fe to open up the channels of communication (the 'accusations').

I can't just live and breathe around you people. God, everything I do has to mean something. I can't just not return a phone call because I don't feel like it? No, apparently it means ^A) that I have something to hide or ^B) that we're becoming distant or ^C) that I'm bothered by something. Nope. Wrong. I just don't like getting back to people right away. Stop trying to get a reaction out of me. It makes me want to cut you off completely. Is that too hard to understand?? Apparently.

So Ni+Fe (with Ti) begins to feel constricting to you since you don't value the insights of the IEI. He is after all pushing your unvalued, largely unconscious functions in a way that makes it hard for you to relate to them.

So, can any of you tell my why you do this? Or how it makes you feel when someone isn't receptive to it or whatever?

A typical interaction:

IEI: Makes claim.
Me: (getting pissed off) Rejects it.
IEI. “Case in point.”
Me: (confused and very annoyed) “Uh, what the fuck? No, it's not like that.”
IEI: “You're being obvious. Accept it.” Blah blah they know everything and see right through me blah blah.
Me: (feeling emotionally drained and angered at this point) Cuts off communication temporarily.
IEI: Throws a fit.

Hehe, this is damn good. I think it goes something like this. The IEI comes up with a Ni observation (possibly Ne observation about the hidden possibiities of the ESI). The ESI gets uncomfortable and objects. The IEI sees his observation in action and points that out. The ESI does NOT appreciate it since the observation, to the ESI, is about something that the ESI does not really value or see as valid OR relevant. ESI reacts with withdrawal. IEI gets upset at this violation of his supersensitive Fe feelers and starts to try to 'fix' the connection again... IEI gets frantic as the ESI closes off, throws 'fit'... IEI's mind goes ballistic trying to 'figure' things out...

Really though, I think that you people think too much. Stop it. Or at least keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't want to know what goes on inside your head. It makes me feel invaded and misinterpreted. The only way to “get me” is to stop analyzing me and start living alongside me. You can't just apply someone to a standard framework or whatever. It doesn't work. I don't know, maybe you guys see something that I don't, but whatever it is, just know that it doesn't apply to everyone you meet. And know that it really hurts people sometimes to be torn apart reaction by reaction as if every little movement correlates to some greater scheme that we can't understand.

There definitely is NOT a question of any 'standard framework' or anything like that. And IEI's DO see something you do not. The IEI is trying to build and support something, not tearing anything apart, so it is confusing to him when you react by feeling invaded.

P.S. Don't take this thread offensively. I'm just ranting from experience.

I've had a similar experience as I said. To me the relationship was extremely passionate at times (that was the good part, I think both ESI's and IEI's are very very passionate types) but it was also very marked by exchanges exactly like you point out here above. We were drawn together by the passion side, but miscommunicated badly when it came to values which exhausted us, then we were drawn together again and this cycle continued for a long time.

Interestingly neither of us were able to finish it consciously. This pattern continued until I finally had a very profound upheaval and almost violently (not physically violently of course) distanced myself from her. By then we both were quite exhausted by the situation (not so much with each other directly but more by this exhausting pattern above). I see it as if my Self simply decided that enough is enough and my Shadow did what was needed to cut me lose because I was way too hooked to do it myself...

[strrrng]

That was uncannily perceptive, Wittmont.

[Lotus]

Wow Wittmont, you really know what you're talking about, haha. Thanks for that post. I'm going to try to answer it without being super redundant now.

Thanks for this post Allie. It actually is a damn interesting one from a socionics point of view. It falls very much in line with my personal experience with ESI's as well. The description of a Benefit relationship (ESI/IEI in my case ofc.) is actually how I discovered socionics, it just was so damn accurate I had to explore socionics further. Intertype relationships is one reason I DO think socionics is on to something, even if I feel Model A is not quite accurate enough to fully describe the observed behaviour and especially lacking when it comes to explaining the types themselves.

Yeah, the relations of Benefit description is astonishingly accurate to my experiences with IEIs so far. I'm really surprised at how well you were able to answer my post, hah.

Heh, this is just the IEI being himself and seeing things through his NIi+Fe framework with his hint of Ti Hidden Agenda trying to piece things together into a larger understanding. What upsets you is that the sum effect of this is probably that the IEI's reactions tickle your Ne PoLR.

I'd be interested to know what it has to do with Ne PoLR, if you could elaborate on that.

Why shouldn't a friend speak things straight out? To an IEI I think that is a natural reaction when they see a 'solid piece of Ni'. SLE's greatly appreciate this in IEI's while it seems ESI's have a hard time with this exact thing.

Blah. It's not that I don't want them to be upfront with me, it's just that I feel like they're “observing” things that aren't really there. I don't know. I understand that they probably see something I don't—given that they're Fe/Ti valuing—but I hate when they point out what they're seeing and expect me to acknowledge it as real.

Also the psychiatrist thing is an interesting projection on your part lol The IEI is simply accepting the information he is recieving while NOT putting a value judgement on it.

Hah, I would rather them put a value judgment on it, in all honesty. What really bothers me is that they tell me what they're seeing, or what I'm doing or whatever, and then they don't say anything about it. They don't tell me whether what they're observing is good or bad or what it means, they just say it. And it leaves me paranoid. I don't like someone pointing out something, and then not reacting to it as good or bad. Like they'll say something, “you're doing this,” and I'll go, “okay, so what are you saying exactly?” And they go, “nothing, just interesting,” *cue little dreamy INFp sigh* And I guess what happens next is me making an assumption as to what they mean by telling me whatever they're telling me. I assume that they're implying something, or criticizing me, etc. And I react to whatever judgment I can interpret from their statement. Blah, maybe it is my fault lol.

But I just really hate the ambiguity in their observations. I mean, how can you honestly observe a pattern in someone and not react to it, judge it, or draw conclusions from it? When they tell me something about myself, I always think that they mean something else by it. If there isn't something else to it, why would they say it aloud to me in the first place?

Ok, this part is where it feels like you are having, or are damn close to having, PoLR hits. I think the IEI actually DOES see you damn well and is able to piece together a lot of things that may seem uncanny to you.

I don't know about that. It usually just feels irrelevant and frustrating. It's like they're pulling shit out of their ass to assemble patterns from. Or they're making too much out of nothing. How does it relate to my PoLR?

Of course. The IEI is simply doing what comes as naturally to him as breathing. The IEI does NOT really understand why YOU get so upset by his observations/comments/outlook. He is only trying to point out what to him is very very clear.

I'm usually more upset at what I think he means by it. Or that he's totally misinterpreting my behavior and therefore the supposed “patterns” he's observing just aren't real.

Hehe, this is damn good. I think it goes something like this. The IEI comes up with a Ni observation (possibly Ne observation about the hidden possibiities of the ESI). The ESI gets uncomfortable and objects. The IEI sees his observation in action and points that out. The ESI does NOT appreciate it since the observation, to the ESI, is about something that the ESI does not really value or see as valid OR relevant. ESI reacts with withdrawal. IEI gets upset at this violation of his supersensitive Fe feelers and starts to try to 'fix' the connection again... IEI gets frantic as the ESI closes off, throws 'fit'... IEI's mind goes ballistic trying to 'figure' things out...

Yeah, this is all too familiar for me. They're always trying to “fix” some random problem—that only they can see, apparently—but to me it feels like they're creating the problem. And god, it causes me so much emotional stress that I usually end up wanting to just end the relationship entirely, for my own health. Blah. And I can never manage to successfully cut them off for reasons even I don't quite understand.

There definitely is NOT a question of any 'standard framework' or anything like that. And IEI's DO see something you do not. The IEI is trying to build and support something, not tearing anything apart, so it is confusing to him when you react by feeling invaded.

It does feel like they're tearing me apart though. Like with every observation they make I feel more tied down and less of my own free will and impulse. I can't just say something or do something or want a break from them for a while. No, it always has to mean something. Maybe I just don't feel like talking to people? Maybe I just want to blurt out whatever I want without it being tied back to a pattern. Why do I have this problem only with Beta Ni and not Gamma Ni? Gamma NTs never make me feel constricted like this.

I've had a similar experience as I said. To me the relationship was extremely passionate at times (that was the good part, I think both ESI's and IEI's are very very passionate types) but it was also very marked by exchanges exactly like you point out here above. We were drawn together by the passion side, but miscommunicated badly when it came to values which exhausted us, then we were drawn together again and this cycle continued for a long time.

This sounds extremely familiar. Wow.

Interestingly neither of us were able to finish it consciously. This pattern continued until I finally had a very profound upheaval and almost violently (not physically violently of course) distanced myself from her. By then we both were quite exhausted by the situation (not so much with each other directly but more by this exhausting pattern above). I see it as if my Self simply decided that enough is enough and my Shadow did what was needed to cut me lose because I was way too hooked to do it myself...

Did she ever attempt to end it too? I always feel like it's my responsibility to end things, but so far you're the second IEI to tell me that they were the one who needed to end it. Does it need to end? Right now I feel like I can't handle this cycle over and over again for very long. When things are good, they're very good; but when they're bad, they really fucking suck. And sometimes the good times make the bad ones feel worth it. But then later when the shitty part of the cycle rolls back around, I'm reminded that it really fucks with me emotionally—and I don't think I want that in my life right now.

[jewels]

One of my favorite things about IEIs is how accepting and non-judgmental they are. For the most part, with rare exceptions, they just seem to take it for granted that people are how they are, without the whole self-righteous "you're wrong and need to change" sort of thing that goes on with some other types. Even when giving advice or making evaluations it hardly ever comes across as judgmental.

So, I can't say I've ever felt this sort of thing in my interactions with them. I've never had one read into my actions something that wasn't there. I'm analytical of those I don't trust also, so I guess I'd assume it was lack of trust of me, if I was treated like that.

this has been my experience too. I like the way INFps listen.

[Wittmont]

Wow Wittmont, you really know what you're talking about, haha. Thanks for that post. I'm going to try to answer it without being super redundant now.


Yeah, the relations of Benefit description is astonishingly accurate to my experiences with IEIs so far. I'm really surprised at how well you were able to answer my post, hah.


I'd be interested to know what it has to do with Ne PoLR, if you could elaborate on that.

I'll answer that a little later in the thread

Blah. It's not that I don't want them to be upfront with me, it's just that I feel like they're “observing” things that aren't really there. I don't know. I understand that they probably see something I don't—given that they're Fe/Ti valuing—but I hate when they point out what they're seeing and expect me to acknowledge it as real.

Why don't you acknowledge it as real? :wink: Chances are it is very real albeit not tangible or even readily observable to you (since it is in your unconscious) while to the IEI it probably is as clear as day.

Hah, I would rather them put a value judgment on it, in all honesty. What really bothers me is that they tell me what they're seeing, or what I'm doing or whatever, and then they don't say anything about it. They don't tell me whether what they're observing is good or bad or what it means, they just say it. And it leaves me paranoid.

Ok, this is where I think the interaction comes close to your Ne PoLR. You are left floundering in uncertainty since the IEI does not put a clear framework to his observations and this is the very thing a LIE would help you with. The LIE would automatically put a Te frame to what is observed and so give you a solid 'ground' to stand on while the IEI Ni is far more 'limitless' in it's outlook.

From Ne Polr on wikisocion: "The individual is highly skeptical about ideas and opportunities that appear not to lead anywhere specific, and seeks assurance that new innovations will definitely bring material benefits. [LIE again...] He prefers the kind of ideas and innovations that offer solutions to existing problems rather than the kind that have uncertain consequences and are likely to bring upheaval and unnecessary change...

The individual dislikes it when people evaluate others' potential to engage in activities or develop skills in which they haven't had experience yet; above all he is uncomfortable with such discussions by other people regarding himself... He is inclined to be... over-skeptical of his own potential..."

So when the IEI points out that he sees undeveloped potential in you he is hitting your Ne PoLR pretty square on. But he probably is doing it in a way that he sees as positive, what he sees does have value to him and he expresses his observations in positive terms, a positivity the ESI has a hard time seeing of course. The IEI is going Ni + Fe which ends up seemingly Ne to you. And what the IEI means as an uplifting positive remark on the whole is seen by the ESI as a potential criticism even if criticism is the last thing the IEI want's to express. This of course freaks the ESI out since it is hard for them to know what is what here, is it a positive thing the IEI is pointing out or is it some kind of implied criticism...

I have little doubt the IEI is meaning well, and what he is observing actually is something he finds very interesting, possibly even intruiguing. He sees a lot of VERY positive aspects in you that you are unaware of yourself. And what he wants to do is less to 'fix' you than to help you bring them out and grow as a person (IEI's are sooo damn much about personal growth lol ). So the IEI is meaning well have no doubt heh :wink:.

I don't like someone pointing out something, and then not reacting to it as good or bad. Like they'll say something, “you're doing this,” and I'll go, “okay, so what are you saying exactly?” And they go, “nothing, just interesting,” *cue little dreamy INFp sigh* And I guess what happens next is me making an assumption as to what they mean by telling me whatever they're telling me. I assume that they're implying something, or criticizing me, etc. And I react to whatever judgment I can interpret from their statement. Blah, maybe it is my fault lol.

Yeah, it's a combination of IEI expressing themselves through their Ni (vaguely and being loath to put down frames) and you not wanting uncertainty or ambiguity about possibilities. So the IEI needs to be very very clear with you when he is expressing such observations. You need a frame to put the IEI's remarks into so you can get a handle on them.

But I just really hate the ambiguity in their observations. I mean, how can you honestly observe a pattern in someone and not react to it, judge it, or draw conclusions from it? When they tell me something about myself, I always think that they mean something else by it. If there isn't something else to it, why would they say it aloud to me in the first place?

Yes exactly. The IEI does have a point with what he is saying (most likely if he really is expressing a deep Ni observation) but he also needs to be clear what he means with it. And you need to try and accept that he is meaning well and not criticizing you in any way and that he does have a point with where he wants to take it all.

I don't know about that. It usually just feels irrelevant and frustrating. It's like they're pulling shit out of their ass to assemble patterns from. Or they're making too much out of nothing. How does it relate to my PoLR?

Yes it doesn't have to hit your PoLR directly. To the IEI it is not irrelevant, he does see beautiful qualities in you that he'd love to bring out. You could call it your golden shadow, the positive aspects of you that are unconscious in you and not directly expressed as part of your persona or even ego. This is what makes it feel so irrelevant and frustrating to you I believe, while the IEI see them as anything but irrelevant...

However do not bend to what the IEI is saying here. do not doubt yourself in this because you know your values here better than anyone. You need to listen to yourself while at the same time listen to the IEI to see what he really is trying to say. But nobody but you can decide if what he says is positive to you or even true for you. The IEI needs to understand that what he is seeing and saying most likely is based on his values, not yours and his values are not more valid than yours...

I'm usually more upset at what I think he means by it. Or that he's totally misinterpreting my behavior and therefore the supposed “patterns” he's observing just aren't real.

Yes I think you need to relax and see that he doesn't mean anything negative and that he does have a reason for pointing out what he does. And the both of you need to understand that what he sees is most likely deep in your unconscious and so you cannot see it very easily and he needs to accept that what he sees is not necessarily valued in you or easy for you to deal with.

Yeah, this is all too familiar for me. They're always trying to “fix” some random problem—that only they can see, apparently—but to me it feels like they're creating the problem. And god, it causes me so much emotional stress that I usually end up wanting to just end the relationship entirely, for my own health. Blah. And I can never manage to successfully cut them off for reasons even I don't quite understand.

Why should you cut them off? Neither of you is really hurting or frustrating the other intentionally and both of you care for each other. It is more a matter of bad miscommunication at times between you based on different emphasis on values and style of communication and overall outlook.

It does feel like they're tearing me apart though. Like with every observation they make I feel more tied down and less of my own free will and impulse. I can't just say something or do something or want a break from them for a while. No, it always has to mean something. Maybe I just don't feel like talking to people? Maybe I just want to blurt out whatever I want without it being tied back to a pattern. Why do I have this problem only with Beta Ni and not Gamma Ni? Gamma NTs never make me feel constricted like this.

As I said I think the reason for this is that Gamma NT's put their Ni observations into a Te context that feels very safe and solid to you as it disarms the "excessive" Ni flow.

Did she ever attempt to end it too? I always feel like it's my responsibility to end things, but so far you're the second IEI to tell me that they were the one who needed to end it. Does it need to end? Right now I feel like I can't handle this cycle over and over again for very long. When things are good, they're very good; but when they're bad, they really fucking suck. And sometimes the good times make the bad ones feel worth it. But then later when the shitty part of the cycle rolls back around, I'm reminded that it really fucks with me emotionally—and I don't think I want that in my life right now.

I don't think it needs to end, but you need to relax about it all and not get uptight or push on these things but accept them for what they are. When you two feel a bad cycle coming just take it easy and discuss these things from a more relaxed point of view. Maybe the IEI can give you a framework for what he is seeing and so help you relax in it. And you can look at what the IEI is seeing (a bit of open introspection might do you good heh :wink and what he likes about it without feeling it as implied criticism so you can see if what he is saying is useful and valid for you.

If you start to feel stressed just take it easy and calm down for a bit, things will be ok as long as you don't overreact either of you. But I know that is not easy for passion people heh

I think both of you are sensitive people and once you have bonded deeply with someone the ties will be there probably for as long as you live. This is an opportunity for personal growth and deeper understanding between you two. Take care of each other, don't overreact, and things will go much smoother.

[xyz]

Heh, I think Wittmont just proved Allie right.

[07490]

Oh, we see them, and it's relevant as fuck. They just don't realize it until ten years down the line, when they get emotionally raped in a relationship, and suddenly come to see behavioral patterns underpinning their motivations in the situation. This induces a sporadic apperception (Ni agenda makes its claim) of that long lost beneficiary from the past, who so wistfully commented on them, not intending any harm, but being spurned nonetheless – and shockingly reaffirms just how fucking right they were. But by that time, the IEI is long gone, already dualized with someone new who appreciates their emotional commentary and doesn't react poisonously to introspective probing.


Sigh When's our wedding, Mimosa?

LOL

[strrrng]

Lol... As soon as you get here.

Damn. Need a passport. You're in what, Norway?

I can provide the money and a cute place for us to live, where you can work on your E4-artistic projects, as long as you promise to provide emotional and physical intensity. You won't have to work, maybe with the exception of the period I'll be in jail for having two husbands.

Aw No worries about the intensity, and I think we can exonerate the charges of adultery through a poignant testimony in the name of duality

[strrrng]

The problem is of course that I'd look like I'm this manipulative older woman having fooled a cute American doe-eye, and then I'd be put away for even longer. At least I think you'd have to make that testimony, as you look a lot more innocent than I do.

True. But I think, with the right expression of wistful cluelessness, a polo and some emotional emphasis, I can sway the people in our favor. Then we will be free to wherever, whenever, however, forever.

[redbaron]

I think the conclusion IEIs should draw, is that, if you are to be in a relationship with an ESI, keep it impersonal. This will obviate fluctuations that do nothing but drain the individuals' energy. The only way for these relationships to be successful, is for each party involved to realize that they can't be genuinely connected to each other. So... if you're in an intimate relationship with one, keep interaction to a minimum -- when you need to have sex -- and never expect anything.

how is that a successful relationship?

[strrrng]

how is that a successful relationship?

It's not. But, it's successful. There's a beauty in impersonal sexuality – not the kind in one night stands, but the kind that occurs between people who know each other but don't bother to care about anything else, after realizing it isn't worth it.

Hmm... Somehow this sounds too simple, but you're the guy with the Ni.



OK. That settles it

I'm off finding us a house, you get your passport and pack your stuff.
Tell me if you need any help with that one-way-ticket.

I'll pm you the address to mail the ticket to. You didn't notice my occupation?

[redbaron]

It's not. But, it's successful. There's a beauty in impersonal sexuality – not the kind in one night stands, but the kind that occurs between people who know each other but don't bother to care about anything else, after realizing it isn't worth it.

I dunno. sounds like a waste of time. unless the person is really just hungry for sex. which I realize might be the case.

[Lotus]

Heh, I think Wittmont just proved Allie right.

Yeah, that is pretty much how I feel at this point.




@ everyone: thanks for the advice, but I give up. I can't deal with people who make up problems, who live in their own fucking universe, who refuse to grow up at all. Maybe they have a lot of good qualities, but the shitty ones don't make up for them whatsoever, even if it can transiently feel otherwise. Sigh. I'm just not into high highs and low lows and trying to convince myself that they're worth it. I'm sick of someone saying they care, but not having the fucking balls to actually live up to what they say. And I don't think I'm good for him at all. But apparently that's irrelevant! Let's lose ourselves in a relationship that's going nowhere! Lose ourselves to people who just don't give a shit either way if you're hurt or upset or frustrated or not okay. God, it's so disgusting. Later.

[strrrng]

I dunno. sounds like a waste of time. unless the person is really just hungry for sex. which I realize might be the case.

Well, it is a waste of time. I was being sort of sardonic towards the whole idea, but whatever.

Hmmm... When will you be feeling better?



Hmmm... When will you be feeling better?

When we get married.

[strrrng]

Hmmm... I think you need a fight more than a marriage, atm... Hmmm... I'll see what I can do...

Yeah, I probably do. Sigh.



The downside is incessant dependency; the upside is the ability to find new flames.

[Creepy-male]

no flame is ever the same

So that's why you make it light up

[strrrng]

no flame is ever the same

I think that's the point, though. And, in a way, to person of that nature, it's almost like no flame is better or worse than another; all it comes down to is the intensity of the heat. So... if one dies, you fly over to a brighter one.

[strrrng]

lol NiTi ftw


You make a good point at the end, which demonstrates how this phenomenon shouldn't have been attributed to IEIs in the first place... all that does is relegate it to a quick answer, to provide some cognitive consolation to the person and prevent the need for them to perform any introspection/emotional examination from coming up (i.e. "what are the real motivations for this person's behavior?" "how am I coming across, affecting them" "what are my motivations" "how could I be misinterpreting things?"). So... essentially this thread has been one person taking a specific situation, finding general commonalities in other situations that corroborate the type suggestion, yet failing to realize that the type-related aspect is simply the means by which the (apparent) over-analysis occurs, and not the root cause in any way. Thus... I think to any perceptive person, the motivations (lol catch irony please) behind such a claim should be fairly transparent -- they are to me, but well, I could simply be over-analyzing

[Lotus]

Uneahlthy INFp, Beneficiary/Benefactor relationship, Fe/Fi

I'm going to go with this for now. It's something I've known for months, and something that I've been told by others (who I had ignored in the process), so I just need to acknowledge it already.

[strrrng]

lol. Innocuous acknowledgment of something as a long-ignored but inevitably-accepted conclusion, to appear indifferently resigned and unconcerned with actual criticisms, due to the factitious context set up to render any comment as a manifestation of the facile claim which generated it. Sigh.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Hmm. IEIs are better off as the people who raise your spirits. It's like you're getting so mad at us for not lifting a boulder but that's not our social role and we do those things poorly anyway, even if we are strong- we'd daydream too much instead of just Lifting. The Fucking. Boulder.

I remember awhile ago you were tickled by me Allie, when I explained how cute and gay and shy and introverted I was.

I still believe in you even if you don't believe in me. And I have the utmost faith that this thing that's bothering you is just another way of expressing yourself and you really don't mean what you say. Yay for moral ambiguity!

It's almost like you can't believe we're so innocent and pure you have to find faults in us to shake us up. But I'm not sure that will work. *We* shake other people up instead with our endearing loveableness. Sorry. But it's just how things go.

[Wittmont]

Nice stuff Krea

And, for some of you....

If you start to feel stressed just take it easy and calm down for a bit, things will be ok as long as you don't overreact either of you. But I know that is not easy for passion people heh

[Gilly]

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Face it, all IEIs need to go to Eckhart Tolle's house and throat fuck the shit out of him, do stuff that even makes meatholes.com look tame. That's what he needs. That's what he's craving. I want the do the same thing to every Professional or anybody who was condescending to think they could give me advice instead of relating to me like my real friend.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[jughead]

esi-iei
in other words this relationship will suck except maybe for pure sex. Maybe this whole thread was an iei overanalyaziatittioatiotaiotaaioatiowat