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Thread: INFjs/ENFps and being passive-aggressive

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    Default INFjs/ENFps and being passive-aggressive

    This is being discussed in the relations section.

    I get aggressive, but when I do it is a very overt kind of aggression. Maybe I'm an anomaly?

    Here's a website describing passive-aggression, just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing. http://www.passiveaggressive.homeste.../PATraits.html

    If you are an ENFp, can you relate to any of that?

    If you aren't ENFp, does that sound like the ENFps you know?
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    I'm usually passive, though in the rare cases when I'm aggressive it tends to be when I'm in some kind of fucked up manic mood. Sometimes being pissed off or being pumped by something can switch my mood.

    When it comes to anger, I'm always in a calm innocent mood. However, if for whatever reason I get into a super pissed mood in extremely rare occasions, I can probably break someone's jaw. Good thing, I'm usually alone when it does happen and happens only once in a blue moon.
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    With the exception of the first two points on that page, Yes.
    thing.

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    All but the first two? I can see how I at least party do a few of them, but I don't think most.

    FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.

    *FEAR OF INTIMACY - Guarded & often mistrusful, he is reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He's often out of touch with his feelings, reflexively denying feelings he thinks will "trap" or reveal him, like love. He picks fights to create distance.
    We agree that those are nos.

    *FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.
    I don't know if I *fear* competition, but I don't like it so I'll put a yes to this.

    *OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.
    I don't do that at all. If I don't want to do something I'm more likely to overreact and yell than to be obstructive.

    *FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.
    I have a hard time finishing things, though I would say that calling it "fostering chaos" is a bit overly dramatic. Still, it's fair to put a yes to this.

    *FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.
    I don't. I've worked with people who do. I sincerely doubt they're ENFps. Probably Ixxjs.

    *MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.
    I don't think ENFps do this though people might misunderstand us and think we do? If an ENFp were unable to fulfill a promise, I can see him/her fabricating excuses but not with a motive of withholding information, affirmation or love. It would be simply to save face.

    *PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.
    I have a hard time with deadlines.

    *CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.
    I'm not chronically late, but I am forgetful. I can see how some ENFps might be chronically late, but my dad was really anal about promptness and I was raised by him so I never got that trait.

    *AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.
    I don't believe I do that.

    *SULKING - Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, the p/a man retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts and withdraws.
    I am not a sulker. I am a yeller and tantrum-thrower, but not a sulker or withdrawer. This is what i think of when I think of passive-aggression and this particular trait is why I can't see ENFps as being that way.
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    I don't know any ENFp's who are passive aggressive. Some traits sound like me i.e. procrastination, stubborness (to an extent), and history of fear of competition (but it's a history not a future). Most traits of passive agressiveness sounds to me like an INTj I know (only one is like that), but definitely not ENFp. ENFp's are more agressive when they're pissed, (I know a lot of them who are like that), but they bounce back smiley cheerful and huggable after that. Irresistably delicious for my hidden agenda *hugs*
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    Based on my experiences of three ENFps I know best - a female old friend and two guys at work - I mainly agree with Nicky's assessment, but I'd like to emphasize this:

    *FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.
    That is a perfect description of how my female friend seems to behave in relationships - "self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure" - and at least one of the guys at work - "the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power". That is, paranoid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky
    All but the first two? I can see how I at least party do a few of them, but I don't think most.

    .
    .
    .

    I am not a sulker. I am a yeller and tantrum-thrower, but not a sulker or withdrawer. This is what i think of when I think of passive-aggression and this particular trait is why I can't see ENFps as being that way.
    Nicky, I want to take back my opinion that ENFPs are passive-aggressive. I got so lost in what was being said on that page that I forgot all my experiences with people I could consider passive-agressiveness. I still maintain that ENFP tend to be the following, however (note that I am not pasting the entire description, just the portions that seem to match):

    -*FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure..

    -*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all.
    Put the implication of passive-aggressiveness aside for a minute, and look at how often ENFPs do this. I've seen ENFPs do this when someone "commands" them to do something, or when they want to help, but don't really want to do what is asked, or when they fall into their laziness and just don't come through.

    -*FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.
    So true! And the ENFPs I know boast about this when we are arguing, or when they are trying to tell me what I "should be." They leave the job undone because they've either lost interest, lost energy to complete the job, or think that the job can be completed no further. The point? They rarely finish.. (again, I'm not supporting these to imply that ENFPs are passive-aggressive).

    -*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.
    ABSOLUTELY! Maybe ENFps don't realize they do this, because they think they are seperating themselves from others when they start to SULK, or when they go and start bitching to their friends. If anyone catches their train, however, then they even blow the victimization out of proportion. They don't proclaim to be a victim of excessive demands, they just parade around like someone from whom too much is "expected."

    -*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises..
    All the time. End of story.

    -*PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.
    True. End of story.

    -*CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.
    Yea, ENFPs aren't good with the time thing either. Always late. Selective forgetting? ALL THE TIME! C'mon, I'd need a dozen hands to recount the number of times ENFPs have forgotten something they signed on for. "I didn't do it on purpose," they say, and I can agree with that, but the point is they do run around the ring of forgetfullness.

    -*AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.
    ABSOLUTELY TRUE! Some of these require a bit of prior thought to make sure I am as correct as I can be with my opinions, but then there are others, like this one, that just grab on to my arm and start shaking!

    -*SULKING - Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, the p/a man retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts and withdraws.
    ENFPs sulk, and they sulk for EXACTLY the first reason this snippet gives.

    Taking these "call signs" as elemental traits, it becomes clear that ENFPs tend to have them. Taking the signs as a means to support passive-agressiveness on the part of ENFPs may be stretching the implications too far. I'll admit that.
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    Any immature person can be passive aggressive. Ive done some of these things in the past when I was young and felt helpless. As I got older I learned to deal with things head on instead of indirectly. However, even healthy adults resort to some p/a behavior at times.

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    Agree.

    Topaz, you're very convenient. When you've posted something, all I have to do is say "dito". You save me lots of time and energy. Cheers, mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    Agree.

    Topaz, you're very convenient. When you've posted something, all I have to do is say "dito". You save me lots of time and energy. Cheers, mate.

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    MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises..
    All the time. End of story.
    What do you mean
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    Default Passive-aggressive INFjs and ENFps

    Is it typical for them to deal with people they don't like by being passively aggressive?

    I know an ENFp at work who seems to have the ability to make digs at people they don't like by making passive aggressive remarks which are suprisingly close to the bone but it comes across as humourous and other people seem to have no choice but to accept it as a joke even though I think they often know it is still sort of serious and it may very well annoy them.

    Maybe they don't always do it but they have the ability to do it if they wish?

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    Regrettably, I do it; several EII's I know do it; and (according to this thread) they pretty much all do it.

    To be caught using explicit, direct Se-ish aggression, is sort of a nightmare for me. Maybe it's related to POLRs (EII) and Super-Egos (IEE), but the shame and horror of being publicly called out for an attack on someone drives me to more passive means. If a take a more subtle, veiled dig at a person (something I'm more skilled at anyway), I feel I'll still be "okay" and acceptable to the other people around me. As you pointed out though ("people seem to have no choice but to accept it as a joke, ...may very well annoy them"), I'm flat-out lying to myself when I assume bystanders won't drop me a notch for still (passively) being a jerk.

    A question or two for you, though:

    A) What's your gut feeling toward this bitter, passive-aggressive Delta-NF sarcasm, and how does it compare to your reaction for (some types') more open, bold-faced attacks?

    B) Is one "better" or more tolerable in your eyes? Or does all aggression get lumped together and condemned, direct or not?

    C) Given a choice, which type of dig would you rather receive?

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    This hits pretty close to home for me.
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    Hi CiLi, i'll try and answer your questions before I log off just now;

    A. In this situation, I actually in a way kind of like it. The ENFp tends to say things I agree with or am thinking, so in a way this particular person is taking care of certain things I would be thinking, and leaving me free to do other things that I think I am naturally better at doing/thinking about etc. Bold faced attacks tend to repel me more, as it seems more final and definite, at least this way in this context still seems to leave the door open for others to still make their own choices, at least to me, perhaps at same time still more room for negotiation if need be.

    B. Kinda like above. I see it as different. Again I see some people as aggressively-passive rather than passive-aggressive, which can irk me personally more (that is the aggressive-passive option).

    C. I'd rather receive the more passive style, but if I know someone well i'd like to think they/we are comfortable enough for person to be more direct with me should it be needed, but I guess to me the more passive way seems less caustic, given the choice.

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    The worst is when people say those catty comments that they try to pretend are polite but are obviously cutting. Then they're like "what? I didn't mean anything" to avoid responsibility. I don't like that approach. If you're going to be passive aggressive, then you should be open to being called out on it.

    That said...w/ people I trust I'm completely blunt about who I like/don't like and why, etc.

    And I have done the passive thing to attack someone, but it's more like...well and example would be, in college I asked a teacher a really stupid question in front of the class in order to point out some sort of "problem" -- like maybe they overcomplicated the assignment or it wasn't fair, or they embarassed another kid in a really mean way and I want to stand up for that kid. I'd be like "So, I must be an idiot because I didn't realize that's the way things are done here...can you tell me more about that approach of publicly embarassing someone and why it works so well?" Of course it's obvious what I'm getting at, so it isn't exactly passive aggressive, but sort of is. If anyone challenged me on it though I'd admit I was being critical of them and explain why...I wouldn't hide behind the passiveness to escape responsibility.
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    For me, it tends to be something of a warning sign for all concerned; a lot of the time I'm not even really conscious of the fact that I'm doing it until it's been said. Rather amuses an ILE friend of mine.

    If I'm called on it I'll get a little bit embarassed, but I'll always own up to it.

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    Yes I know, the digs are usually at me and concerning that ILE friend. Don't want to have to tell you this, but might as well....this is pretty much the single most hurtful thing you do to me in polite company.

    But you've seen me crack it over digs like that anyway. Anyway it cuts, it really does hurt. So yeah, I'm gonna go with the whole passive aggressive thing being more hurtful.
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    Default EII Aggression?

    Given that Se is our vulnerable function, I'm trying to get some outside impressions on how aggression plays into the lifestyles of other EII's. I know I'm not likely to use it or react to it well, but when someone tries to aggress on my values I'll lash out in more of a cornered animal kind of way, and bitterly too. I'd definitely like more imput on how other EII's deal with Se-related situations, in regards to aggression.
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    I think both EII and LII are level headed but when angered, they can be pretty destructive and difficult to calm down. One EII neighbor once told me he was having an "issue" with a guy parking in front of his house. He ended up shooting the car with an air rifle. I think the idiot (my neighbor) doesn't understand that he isn't an owner of a public street so as much as it pisses him off, he can't deny the guy the right to park there as long as he's not blocking access.

    This neighbor is a lawyer and ethical so as you can see, there is no jerk-proof type.
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    Agreed, I too am slow to expressing anger, but when I do it's substantial and can be out of control. I personally never thought ethical types were ever impervious to being jerks lol, so I'm not all that shocked. My LII friend handles anger in a very similar way to me, and he's also defensively reactive to people who criticize his logic, and of course we both can be assholes due to our judgments lol.
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    I'm not an aggressive person, the only aggressive things I've done was push my sister away from my mom when she got aggressive with her and as a tiff, I've made a gesture of "I would just kill you" in anger when I placed my hands around my ex boyfriend's neck because he was being purposefully inconsiderate of my needs and his selfish attempt at ignoring me and my needs on my trip to see him.

    ^this message was approved by my boyfriend, Bryan.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-18-2013 at 06:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'm not an aggressive person, the only aggressive things I've done was push my sister away from my mom when she got aggressive with her and as a tiff, I've made a gesture of "I would just kill you" in anger when I placed my hands around my ex boyfriend's neck because he was being purposefully inconsiderate of my needs and his selfish attempt at ignoring me and my needs on my trip to see him.


    Seriously? I just can't imagine you doing that from what I've read of your posts.. I understand people get angry, but you can get in serious trouble if you don't learn to control your anger. If I recall correctly one of my SEE girlfriends got in serious trouble for similar behavior when we were younger. When we were kids she flew off the handle and attacked me physically a few times, but I attributed it to her up-bringing and let it go. Her boyfriend didn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post


    Seriously? I just can't imagine you doing that from what I've read of your posts.. I understand people get angry, but you can get in serious trouble if you don't learn to control your anger. If I recall correctly one of my SEE girlfriends got in serious trouble for similar behavior when we were younger. When we were kids she flew off the handle and attacked me physically a few times, but I attributed it to her up-bringing and let it go. Her boyfriend didn't.
    It wasn't in any means to hurt anyone. And, I'm a very weak and tiny person so there was no pressure applied. Well, I'm 34 years old and I've helped raised 4 children two of which are 18 and 17 now and one is a baby; never once have I laid hands on them and three are SEE hyperactive children who can get quite physically aggressive themselves. So maybe that is some indication that that wasn't made to hurt someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'm not an aggressive person, the only aggressive things I've done was push my sister away from my mom when she got aggressive with her and as a tiff, I've made a gesture of "I would just kill you" in anger when I placed my hands around my ex boyfriend's neck because he was being purposefully inconsiderate of my needs and his selfish attempt at ignoring me and my needs on my trip to see him.
    So...we really were talking about you in that other conver, then.
    And by the way, your size and weight is no excuse for considering that action in any way as acceptable behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    So...we really were talking about you in that other conver, then.
    And by the way, your size and weight is no excuse for considering that action in any way as acceptable behavior.
    I'm not opening up what I said to further conversation.

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    Ummm... that's domestic abuse, Maritsa.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    ^this message was approved by my boyfriend, Bryan.
    Moonlight will fall
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    Your heart will mend

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    dugga dugga dun Narc's Avatar
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    You could be charged for placing your hands around someone's neck in anger, Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Ummm... that's domestic abuse, Maritsa.
    But Officer Scapegrace, I didn't intend to break her arm. If she'd have simply given me what I wanted from her, I wouldn't have resorted to what I did, and noone would now be accusing me of being an aggressive control freak!
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackholeRoad View Post
    I know I'm not likely to use it or react to it well, but when someone tries to aggress on my values I'll lash out in more of a cornered animal kind of way, and bitterly too. I'd definitely like more imput on how other EII's deal with Se-related situations, in regards to aggression.
    *nods* I've heard that EIIs can do that due to "clumsy "; basically, they're not good at measuring the appropriate amount of force/pressure for the problem at hand, nor at applying force in general, so they end up underdoing or overdoing it.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Anger is a beautiful emotion.

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    At least when I try to strangle my boyfriend I can say that the devil made me do it since I'm all sinister and stuff.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    Sometimes, I feel sad that you're either obliviious or in denial.

    ^approved by my friend Munchma Quechee.

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    I limit my aggression to hostile, angry, but well written, heavily redacted and revised tirades against my enemies mailed to their addresses in fits of uncontrollable madness.

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    I crawl back BlackholeRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPathWhiteClouds View Post
    I limit my aggression to hostile, angry, but well written, heavily redacted and revised tirades against my enemies mailed to their addresses in fits of uncontrollable madness.
    Outstanding
    I am not covered in thorns
    nor am I covered in mold

    https://soundcloud.com/#latitudes-official/latitudes-antechamber

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    My EII sister rarely gets aggressive at all. She does sometimes, but she just sparks up a bit and talks in an angry way, and then afterward will say how much she freaked out and how you'd better not think she won't get upset at people. She does not see clearly how weak her reaction was. LOL.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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