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Thread: ENFp considering dropping friendship with an ISTp

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Default ENFp considering dropping friendship with an ISTp

    I met this guy about 5 years ago. We worked together in a project of mine for about six months and became friends afterwards. However, I see him rarely since he left the job. I've tried to reach him countless times, but he always seem to be busy about something. I have the impression that it has nothing to do with his activities, rather, that he's has somehow lost interest in seeing me.

    He asked me to build a computer for him a few months ago and I ran into all sorts of trouble for keeping my word about it. Two motherboards failed, the PSU exploded and I had to change the video card also, but eventually the computer ended up working properly. However, I lost about $200 in the process due to "miscalculations". He knows it, but he somehow thinks it's ok for me to take responsibility for my mistakes.

    Ok, I spent money but I earned his friendship, yes? No. I asked him to help me about a project to compensate but it's been months and he hasn't even touched the parts I left in his house. I suppose that if he really cared about it, he could spare a few hours to sit down and take measures and make drawings.

    Thing is, I'm slowly building up a feeling of resentment, in that I believe I value our relationship far more than he does. It is understandable that he has become distant, as he's now engaged with an IEE girl. I suppose he no longer needs any Ne+Fi coming from me, having it so handy already.

    In the end, I could summarize my disappointment in one word: "pragmatism". It seems rather obvious to me that SLIs are as cheap about relationships as they are to everything else. If they find that a friendship isn't particularly profitable (and I'm not talking about money here), they simply lose interest on it. I believe that for an IEE like myself, nothing hurts more than feeling increasingly peripheral to the life of a person you consider your friend, specially an SLI, since they don't really put effort in hiding it.

    So far, I've experienced mostly rather negative experiences with dual friends. Why are SLIs so difficult to get along with?
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    You need to get a Nohari Window too.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Done.
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    LOL

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    hahaha. nice response. Umm. You know he doesn't realize you guys are duals. I know alot of times i've come across as too caring about the ESFps i've met, just cuz I know the long term potential of our relationship. I duno how well you actually knew him over the course of those years, but you may of grown apart and lost the relationship itself.. if that's the case it's more to do with circumstances than type interactions. Also, duals are often running into these problems of being seperated by their circumstances ..
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post

    In the end, I could summarize my disappointment in one word: "pragmatism". It seems rather obvious to me that SLIs are as cheap about relationships as they are to everything else. If they find that a friendship isn't particularly profitable (and I'm not talking about money here), they simply lose interest on it. I believe that for an IEE like myself, nothing hurts more than feeling increasingly peripheral to the life of a person you consider your friend, specially an SLI, since they don't really put effort in hiding it.

    So far, I've experienced mostly rather negative experiences with dual friends. Why are SLIs so difficult to get along with?
    They are not difficult to get along with at all. In fact, once they have decided that they like you, they are the most loyal people I could imagine. Not a single friendship I have with an SLI is about "being useful" (they are more useful for me than I am to them anyway ).

    I cannot get past the way you describe your relationship with people (the neighbor story also comes to mind). It seems as if you are always about "being even" and contributions rather than fun, comfort level, mutual understanding, etc.
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    Mikemex , have you ever seriously considered the fact you just might not be IEE? Seeing as all you really ever do here is complain about your supposed dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Seeing as all you really ever do here is complain about your supposed dual.
    I thought all IEEs did that.

    Part of being IEE is not knowing how to deal with SLIs, duh!

    But I agree, Mikemex doesn't try to apply the Delta Scales of Absolute Justice to even blame out.

    Let's all type Mikemex!

    *ninja diversion*

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    Now that you mention it, a lot of the IEE's tend to complain about SLI's...dunno maybe they're just trying to figure their dual out...but really people, SLI's aren't this difficult. I'm probobly the simplest person in the world. Over analysing ruins things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Now that you mention it, a lot of the IEE's tend to complain about SLI's...dunno maybe they're just trying to figure their dual out...but really people, SLI's aren't this difficult. I'm probobly the simplest person in the world. Over analysing ruins things.
    I think that it's a two-way street. There are problems on both sides. You may consider yourself simple, but then you're just simply frustrating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I met this guy about 5 years ago. We worked together in a project of mine for about six months and became friends afterwards. However, I see him rarely since he left the job. I've tried to reach him countless times, but he always seem to be busy about something. I have the impression that it has nothing to do with his activities, rather, that he's has somehow lost interest in seeing me.

    He asked me to build a computer for him a few months ago and I ran into all sorts of trouble for keeping my word about it. Two motherboards failed, the PSU exploded and I had to change the video card also, but eventually the computer ended up working properly. However, I lost about $200 in the process due to "miscalculations". He knows it, but he somehow thinks it's ok for me to take responsibility for my mistakes.

    Ok, I spent money but I earned his friendship, yes? No. I asked him to help me about a project to compensate but it's been months and he hasn't even touched the parts I left in his house. I suppose that if he really cared about it, he could spare a few hours to sit down and take measures and make drawings.

    Thing is, I'm slowly building up a feeling of resentment, in that I believe I value our relationship far more than he does. It is understandable that he has become distant, as he's now engaged with an IEE girl. I suppose he no longer needs any Ne+Fi coming from me, having it so handy already.

    In the end, I could summarize my disappointment in one word: "pragmatism". It seems rather obvious to me that SLIs are as cheap about relationships as they are to everything else. If they find that a friendship isn't particularly profitable (and I'm not talking about money here), they simply lose interest on it. I believe that for an IEE like myself, nothing hurts more than feeling increasingly peripheral to the life of a person you consider your friend, specially an SLI, since they don't really put effort in hiding it.

    So far, I've experienced mostly rather negative experiences with dual friends. Why are SLIs so difficult to get along with?
    i have the same kind of friendship with an SLI for around 8 years now, yeah it seems like he doesn't give a crap and ignores me and so on, but i just ignore him back until he calls me 3 months later wondering where i've been. it's kinda confusing, and i always get the idea that he doesn't want to be friends anymore. but that's just the way it is, he probably wonders why the hell i spend all my money on junk so i can't afford to pay my bills later. he's logical, so i can't really blame him for not seeing things from an ethical point of view.

    but yeah, from my experience the best way of staying in touch with SLIs is avoiding contact with them, whenever i seek contact i get the feeling i'm intruding on them. probably sounds kinda ironic.

    and if they were easy to get along with and make any sense whatsoever they wouldn't be intresting, and therefore not attractive for IEEs (i guess?)

    i just lost track of what the hell i'm talking about but them SLIs are a lovable confusing bunch of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    Umm. You know he doesn't realize you guys are duals. I know alot of times i've come across as too caring about the ESFps i've met, just cuz I know the long term potential of our relationship.
    Yep same experience here.

    Some duals treat you like shit. If they only knew...

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    OMG! the same complaints about SLI from their duals as in Russian-speaking forums

    money is nothing. warmth and understanding and FUN is everything for SLI. SLI is never going to make friends with someone only because this someone spent on him/her some money and effort. moreover if he/she feels that someone thinks that SLI owes this someone, SLI is likely to escape from this situation even if it looks not quite good in the moral sense. he/she just can't stand that. just say to SLI "you owe me this" and be sure you'll never get it.

    the second reason may be just his laziness and that he feels embarrassed to contact you before he did what you'd asked him. oh yes he feels awkward about this but still he doesn't feel like doing your project so strongly that he just can't help that. and the more he thinks of you as someone who's is waiting to be rewarded for her effort (not as of someone with whom he can just have fun) and he's obliged to help you, the less desire to make those drawing he has. and he's never going to do it eventually. and you're going to be associated with something unpleasant in his mind.

    you'd better not help him with his computer but rather go have some beer and talk and then take him to some odd place where you both drunk could climb a tree and laugh and wait until dawn comes. that would be better.

    but you've already done this computer stuff. if you want him back, you should just drop that topic. call him and say that you don't need that project anymore and invite him to adventure instead. just like that. it's up to youu to choose. but if you choose to forget about "what he owes you" he may offer his help himself one day.


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    It is possible you just aren't that compatible even though you are duals. I do find it interesting that you said maybe he doesn't need your Ne+Fi anymore. I noticed my friendship with my LIE friend degraded quite sharply when he got his ESI girlfriend. Still, pretty much all friendships wane a little when one party gets a girlfriend. Hoes before bros

    Mike i dont know your type, i am happy for you to be ENFp but have you considered INFj Dostoevsky subtype? I am getting to know one at the moment and he is quite suprising. He is highly intelligent and knows something about EVERYTHING, very fast thinker, very cocky, talks a lot. If you saw the two of us together you actually might confuse me for the introvert and him for the extravert. Loves organising social gatherings. He is also quite happy to be rude to others and is lacking a social edge / understanding. I am not saying you are all these things at all, just a suggestion!

    Quote Originally Posted by lekka View Post
    OMG! the same complaints about SLI from their duals as in Russian-speaking forums
    Yay you are from the russian forums? I would love to hear about some things you have learnt from them sometime. Stick around

    I met a really beautiful ISTp from Arizona last night. Her and i got on so well but she is taller than me. I cannot win i swear i could make a soap opera about my life
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    You know, the recent (?) burst of IEEs talking about their problems with SLIs on the forum kind of reminds me of IEEsin real life. They generally don't talk bad about people, but if you bring up problems or relational difficulties, they tend to open up in that way more so.

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    Socionics lacks definition when it comes to describe individuals. While all IEEs share the same basic "information metabolism", by no means all IEE look the same. The same is valid for any type.

    For example, I know an EII who could be mistaken for a Si dominant, as he does nothing but to indulge into sensory gratifications. He spends most of his money going to restaurants, bars and strip clubs. Overall, he seems to lack interest in all sorts of creative activities or intellectual pursuits. To be honest, if it wasn't for socionics telling me we share the Ne/Si and Te/Fi axis, that would look absolutely foreign to me. I sort of dislike small talk and vane activities to no end.

    In the case of my friend... it seems like he belongs to the group of "beer drinker" SLIs. I mean, introverts that, instead of spending time building their "inner world", try to act out as fake extroverts, failing at both ends. They don't have the true gregarious nature of extroverts and at the same time don't have deep interests or "anchors" of introverts.

    When I think about an EII, I think of someone resembling Luther. When I think about an SLI, I think of someone resembling Louis XVI of France.

    I dislike the vulgar version of any type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Socionics lacks definition when it comes to describe individuals. While all IEEs share the same basic "information metabolism", by no means all IEE look the same. The same is valid for any type.

    For example, I know an EII who could be mistaken for a Si dominant, as he does nothing but to indulge into sensory gratifications. He spends most of his money going to restaurants, bars and strip clubs. Overall, he seems to lack interest in all sorts of creative activities or intellectual pursuits. To be honest, if it wasn't for socionics telling me we share the Ne/Si and Te/Fi axis, that would look absolutely foreign to me. I sort of dislike small talk and vane activities to no end.

    In the case of my friend... it seems like he belongs to the group of "beer drinker" SLIs. I mean, introverts that, instead of spending time building their "inner world", try to act out as fake extroverts, failing at both ends. They don't have the true gregarious nature of extroverts and at the same time don't have deep interests or "anchors" of introverts.

    When I think about an EII, I think of someone resembling Luther. When I think about an SLI, I think of someone resembling Louis XVI of France.

    I dislike the vulgar version of any type.
    Personally, I don't think you're an IEE. I don't think an IEE would ever expect to earn someone's friendship by throwing money at them. That's ridiculous. I also just get this feeling from your posts that you think you're always right. An attitude I just don't see as being compatible with an IEE typing. Regardless of how much of an individual you are.

    Frankly, your attitude irritates me deeply.

    Just my 2c.

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    People's ideas about relationships are separate from type. I've known IEEs who are all really different. Type is such a small thing as compared w/ the rest of who we are and how we act. So it's hard to say what his type is.

    And wrongwayticket, I would probably avoid telling someone that their attitude irritated me (even if it did). Unless they directly attacked me, I avoid conflict as much as possible. So your post doesn't jive w/ my outlook (which doesn't mean that one of us isnt' an ENFp). You know what I mean? You can be the same type as someone and be annoyed by them or not agree w/ their thoughts. It doesn't make them a different type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    People's ideas about relationships are separate from type. I've known IEEs who are all really different. Type is such a small thing as compared w/ the rest of who we are and how we act. So it's hard to say what his type is.

    And wrongwayticket, I would probably avoid telling someone that their attitude irritated me (even if it did). Unless they directly attacked me, I avoid conflict as much as possible. So your post doesn't jive w/ my outlook (which doesn't mean that one of us isnt' an ENFp). You know what I mean? You can be the same type as someone and be annoyed by them or not agree w/ their thoughts. It doesn't make them a different type.
    =P

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    SLIs don't tend to be that direct or consistent in being what most people call 'good friends'. Like popping in to say hi or offering to hang out. IME that doesn't mean they don't like you, as weird as it seems, they just get involved in a lot of immediate shit in their life, which I can appreciate since I'm pretty much the same way. Out of sight out of mind is a really simplistic, not quite right way to put it I think.

    My IEE friend has had problems with our SLI bud because he drops off the face of the earth if he doesn't have regular contact for whatever reason (work, school, getting stuff he wants/needs). If you want to stay involved with an SLI you seem to kind of have to become a part of the stuff they find essential to their well being, which is more about their activities than just good times and experiences. They don't want to be total hermits, but, damn, they come close some times!
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    My IEE friend has had problems with our SLI bud because he drops off the face of the earth if he doesn't have regular contact for whatever reason (work, school, getting stuff he wants/needs). If you want to stay involved with an SLI you seem to kind of have to become a part of the stuff they find essential to their well being, which is more about their activities than just good times and experiences. They don't want to be total hermits, but, damn, they come close some times!
    Yeah definitely.

    Right... and really, LSEs are kind of similar, when it comes to really developing friendships. I think I have a lot more 'social friends' than SLIs though, as they seem to be more more focused on those few people that properly overlap.

    I actually think I have somewhat of an advantage to understanding them than delta NFs because sometimes delta NFs seem to not be able to realize, mechanically/practically, how things are working out. With an SLI, I know that if there's nothing to talk about, there's just nothing there, and I don't bother with it. I don't try to 'maintain' or 'promote' anythingi that isn't there. I show initiative or make invites, which they seem to like, but that's about it.

    I'm really not sure how to translate that into advice for IEEs though. I could say perhaps IEEs are 'too hurried' about developing things, but I know enough cases where they've simly waited to long on something that wasn't there. Hmm.

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    I think what you've said is true for SEIs and ESEs as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I met this guy about 5 years ago. We worked together in a project of mine for about six months and became friends afterwards. However, I see him rarely since he left the job. I've tried to reach him countless times, but he always seem to be busy about something. I have the impression that it has nothing to do with his activities, rather, that he's has somehow lost interest in seeing me.

    He asked me to build a computer for him a few months ago and I ran into all sorts of trouble for keeping my word about it. Two motherboards failed, the PSU exploded and I had to change the video card also, but eventually the computer ended up working properly. However, I lost about $200 in the process due to "miscalculations". He knows it, but he somehow thinks it's ok for me to take responsibility for my mistakes.

    Ok, I spent money but I earned his friendship, yes? No. I asked him to help me about a project to compensate but it's been months and he hasn't even touched the parts I left in his house. I suppose that if he really cared about it, he could spare a few hours to sit down and take measures and make drawings.

    Thing is, I'm slowly building up a feeling of resentment, in that I believe I value our relationship far more than he does. It is understandable that he has become distant, as he's now engaged with an IEE girl. I suppose he no longer needs any Ne+Fi coming from me, having it so handy already.

    In the end, I could summarize my disappointment in one word: "pragmatism". It seems rather obvious to me that SLIs are as cheap about relationships as they are to everything else. If they find that a friendship isn't particularly profitable (and I'm not talking about money here), they simply lose interest on it. I believe that for an IEE like myself, nothing hurts more than feeling increasingly peripheral to the life of a person you consider your friend, specially an SLI, since they don't really put effort in hiding it.

    So far, I've experienced mostly rather negative experiences with dual friends. Why are SLIs so difficult to get along with?
    Actually, though you exaggerate a few points, I understand what you are saying... On the other hand, have you also considered that maybe you do things that are also "put off"-ish to this particular SLI?

    Honestly, I'm surprised when I hear people idealize duality... I think to myself that I might just be cynical (which is true in some cases), but that shows in a way how inexperienced people are about their duals, or in general for this case the NF/ST general relationship. I'm not saying that NF/ST is not a great thing, because I believe it is, but it can take a lot of energy and commitment in certain situations outside of just informational processing. It frustrates me when I people are so happy-go-lucky about "yay duals! omg," and until recently I've thought that maybe it's just me somehow. Then you get the inevitable complaints about how duality is not working... Considering how different delta NFs are to STs, how can there not be any problems?? Like jessica mentioned, which is something that my best friend has told me before, SLIs consider themselves to be simple people, even though to NFs they're anything but at times. As soon as they perceive that they are being put "under a microscope," they get turned off. What do delta NFs enjoy doing? understanding people, with their oddities included. Something that doesn't feel good happens, and they want to discover what it is. This aspect of NF is compatible with LSEs, because they somehow do not mind, maybe even enjoy, someone trying to figure them out. However, it's not compatible with SLIs, because their way of dealing with something that doesn't feel good is through any means other than really attacking at it straight on. They'd much prefer learning how to avoid and "accept" what doesn't feel good than actively changing it. This right here is a conflicting aspect between delta NFs and SLIs in particular.

    On the other hand, SLIs can be very endearing to NFs, more so than LSEs, when they project this unique eeyore-ish attitude. It's sort of like an NF "magnet." In this sense, LSEs might be more conscious of not projecting an image of being vulnerable, which actually works against them in terms of drawing NFs.

    So my point in all of this is that it's completely natural for me that there are problems between NF/ST, and people shouldn't act like this is a sin against the concept of duality and that it necessarily implies a mistyping. What else would you expect really? No one, and I do mean no one (well, maybe a small percentage of people in the world) will take change lightly. In order to make NF/ST work, there has to be some kind of internal change in each person, an adaptation. There will be times when you are driven to the point of "is this even worth it?" You would have to change your view on the world in order to adapt to each other. No one can decide to go through with it but you, because if you don't have any like-minded friends to talk to, they're probably going to think you're crazy for still being together. It's definitely a hard growth process at times.

    What I personally like about the relationship I have with my SiTe best friend is that we expose each other's bs, and it bothers the shit out of each other, but we still go at it and I do believe we have helped each other grow in that sense. I've been driven to points that I couldn't have even thought someone could do to me. It's amazing for me to think at how pissed off I've gotten with this guy, and for some reason, we're still kicking it and with time it gets better. It's not for the faint of heart though. Ok I'll stop, maybe my post is too big now for anyone to care reading .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I'm really not sure how to translate that into advice for IEEs though. I could say perhaps IEEs are 'too hurried' about developing things, but I know enough cases where they've simly waited to long on something that wasn't there. Hmm.
    True... Though, wouldn't this attitude help to develop things? I know what you're saying about things just "not being there," but if there wasn't some kind of disproportion in the relationship in terms of how someone feels for the other, would there even be growth? Delta NFs are about potential, and this somehow drives things to be deeper. Maybe I'm overcomplicated it, but it's just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    I think what you've said is true for SEIs and ESEs as well.
    What's been said about SLIs or about IEEs?
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    Eh?

    I meant re: Ryu describing SLI/LSE.

    I'd say I can connect vaguely with people outside my day-to-day, but the strongest bonds are with people who refresh those constantly with constant contact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Eh?

    I meant re: Ryu describing SLI/LSE.

    I'd say I can connect vaguely with people outside my day-to-day, but the strongest bonds are with people who refresh those constantly with constant contact.
    Ok, cool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    If you want to stay involved with an SLI you seem to kind of have to become a part of the stuff they find essential to their well being, which is more about their activities than just good times and experiences. They don't want to be total hermits, but, damn, they come close some times!
    This is the conclusion I've come to, and it frustrates me as well. Because that means you have to do one of two things; the first being randomly lucky to share a common meeting place with an SiTe naturally that the two of you will share, or, upon finding out an SiTe's interests and frequented places, become stalker-ish and go to these places with hope that you eventually develop something. To me, this seems unfair to the NeFi just to establish a stable connection.

    I know my "complaints" have made it seem like everything is the SiTe's fault, it isn't, I have thought about this recently, because if I run into the same problem over and over again, there must be something I'm doing or thinking incorrectly (and Socionics might actually be incorrect, who knows). I figure that I post too much about this griping and assume most people are tired of hearing what I say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I'm really not sure how to translate that into advice for IEEs though. I could say perhaps IEEs are 'too hurried' about developing things, but I know enough cases where they've simly waited to long on something that wasn't there. Hmm.
    I can agree, I was thinking about this and realized that I put a lot of energy in and get anxious when there seems to be no progression. It's possible that I want to force the relationship to go deeper faster than it's naturally supposed to, but really, if I left it to the SiTe's pace, nothing would seemingly come to fruition. So if you could "translate" things for me, it would be great. I'd like more encouragement over all, I feel like there's only negative emotions, but it's only because I feel really let down when I see a great potential go to waste knowing that you could have possibly done something to save it.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    I just want to say that, while you IEEs like to complain about us distant, unavailable, initiative-lacking SLIs, your flakiness and inconsistencies can amount to pretty much the same (rather annoying) thing.

    You're just lucky you happen to be mostly lovable at the same time.
    Could you explain this more? I feel like that I really make an effort for the SiTe I encounter (both before and after I knew about SiTe/NeFi duality), and I have no idea what I do that annoys SiTe. My best guess is that I get frustrated and move on when they start to warm up to things, but it's usually too late for that.

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    If you want to stay involved with an SLI you seem to kind of have to become a part of the stuff they find essential to their well being, which is more about their activities than just good times and experiences. They don't want to be total hermits, but, damn, they come close some times!
    and

    the first being randomly lucky to share a common meeting place with an SiTe naturally that the two of you will share, or, upon finding out an SiTe's interests and frequented places, become stalker-ish and go to these places with hope that you eventually develop something.
    YES. So I guess in a way I should count my blessings that I share a grand total of THREE mutual interests with that guy I was talking about. But I have the same problem. His friend circle consists of several guys that he's known for years and he primarily works with them and develops business with them, so I can't really make an in-road there. So I honestly don't know how else to spend time with him, b/c most of his "hobbies" are either solitary or involve work.

    I just want to say that, while you IEEs like to complain about us distant, unavailable, initiative-lacking SLIs, your flakiness and inconsistencies can amount to pretty much the same (rather annoying) thing.
    Yes, this is true as well. We're just pissed b/c someone else is giving us a taste of our own medicine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I met this guy about 5 years ago. We worked together in a project of mine for about six months and became friends afterwards. However, I see him rarely since he left the job. I've tried to reach him countless times, but he always seem to be busy about something. I have the impression that it has nothing to do with his activities, rather, that he's has somehow lost interest in seeing me.
    Now, you know this is common for SLIs. Out-of-sight, out-of-mind (but not out our hearts necessarily)

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    He asked me to build a computer for him a few months ago and I ran into all sorts of trouble for keeping my word about it. Two motherboards failed, the PSU exploded and I had to change the video card also, but eventually the computer ended up working properly. However, I lost about $200 in the process due to "miscalculations". He knows it, but he somehow thinks it's ok for me to take responsibility for my mistakes.

    Ok, I spent money but I earned his friendship, yes? No. I asked him to help me about a project to compensate but it's been months and he hasn't even touched the parts I left in his house. I suppose that if he really cared about it, he could spare a few hours to sit down and take measures and make drawings.
    Fair enough. Give him a deadline, and a reason why you really need him to save the day by finishing it by x date. Don't make the date too far off in the future. This will appeal to his wanting to meet a challenge, and save the girl.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post

    Thing is, I'm slowly building up a feeling of resentment, in that I believe I value our relationship far more than he does. It is understandable that he has become distant, as he's now engaged with an IEE girl. I suppose he no longer needs any Ne+Fi coming from me, having it so handy already.

    In the end, I could summarize my disappointment in one word: "pragmatism". It seems rather obvious to me that SLIs are as cheap about relationships as they are to everything else. If they find that a friendship isn't particularly profitable (and I'm not talking about money here), they simply lose interest on it. I believe that for an IEE like myself, nothing hurts more than feeling increasingly peripheral to the life of a person you consider your friend, specially an SLI, since they don't really put effort in hiding it.

    So far, I've experienced mostly rather negative experiences with dual friends. Why are SLIs so difficult to get along with?
    I appriciate your frustration. We aren't as calculating as that, of course. I've never, as an SLI, said to myself, "where's the profit in this friendship." I have recognized that the distance is too great, or circumstances make a friendship impractical. We are pragmatic and utilitarian, but not cheap in our willingness to give what we have.

    If he's engaged, know that that could be a factor in his thinking (loyalty is important to the SLI).

    Good luck Mikemex.
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    Considering how different delta NFs are to STs, how can there not be any problems?? Like jessica mentioned, which is something that my best friend has told me before, SLIs consider themselves to be simple people, even though to NFs they're anything but at times. As soon as they perceive that they are being put "under a microscope," they get turned off. What do delta NFs enjoy doing? understanding people, with their oddities included. Something that doesn't feel good happens, and they want to discover what it is. This aspect of NF is compatible with LSEs, because they somehow do not mind, maybe even enjoy, someone trying to figure them out. However, it's not compatible with SLIs, because their way of dealing with something that doesn't feel good is through any means other than really attacking at it straight on. They'd much prefer learning how to avoid and "accept" what doesn't feel good than actively changing it. This right here is a conflicting aspect between delta NFs and SLIs in particular.
    Perhaps. I associate that more so with less-healthy SLIs. The healthy ones I know are fairly upfront about most things, they just might not see a reason to talk about much. But others are more secretive and even intentionally vague,etc.

    On the other hand, SLIs can be very endearing to NFs, more so than LSEs, when they project this unique eeyore-ish attitude. It's sort of like an NF "magnet." In this sense, LSEs might be more conscious of not projecting an image of being vulnerable, which actually works against them in terms of drawing NFs.
    Yeah, that's definitely something I'm not accustomed to, showing a lot of vulnerability. I have the "unapproachable professoinalism" on most of the time, even in terms of friendships. It's hard for me to let that down, sometimes I actually don't know how to. But then the times that I do, I can feel vulnerable and act like an anxious puppy dog, so I'm not sure if that is appealing either - 'too much'.

    So my point in all of this is that it's completely natural for me that there are problems between NF/ST, and people shouldn't act like this is a sin against the concept of duality and that it necessarily implies a mistyping. What else would you expect really? No one, and I do mean no one (well, maybe a small percentage of people in the world) will take change lightly. In order to make NF/ST work, there has to be some kind of internal change in each person, an adaptation. There will be times when you are driven to the point of "is this even worth it?" You would have to change your view on the world in order to adapt to each other. No one can decide to go through with it but you, because if you don't have any like-minded friends to talk to, they're probably going to think you're crazy for still being together. It's definitely a hard growth process at times.
    I can relate to that somewhat. Especially when each party is 'set in its ways' as per what it is accustomed to in its usual environment.

    What I personally like about the relationship I have with my SiTe best friend is that we expose each other's bs, and it bothers the shit out of each other, but we still go at it and I do believe we have helped each other grow in that sense. I've been driven to points that I couldn't have even thought someone could do to me. It's amazing for me to think at how pissed off I've gotten with this guy, and for some reason, we're still kicking it and with time it gets better. It's not for the faint of heart though. Ok I'll stop, maybe my post is too big now for anyone to care reading .
    Aha that reminds me of a certain relationship with an EII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    True... Though, wouldn't this attitude help to develop things? I know what you're saying about things just "not being there," but if there wasn't some kind of disproportion in the relationship in terms of how someone feels for the other, would there even be growth? Delta NFs are about potential, and this somehow drives things to be deeper. Maybe I'm overcomplicated it, but it's just a thought.
    I'm not sure.
    I think it's somewhat foolish to try to start a relationship with someone who isn't really into both 'you' and 'having a relationship'. I don't see that as growth, I see it as trying to coerce someone into being something they are not.
    I'm not sure what attitude you're talking about, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    I just want to say that, while you IEEs like to complain about us distant, unavailable, initiative-lacking SLIs, your flakiness and inconsistencies can amount to pretty much the same (rather annoying) thing.

    You're just lucky you happen to be mostly lovable at the same time.
    One thing that gets me about some of them is that "6:00" tends to mean "6:15...20...25".

    After a while you tend to just expect it. Seems to happen especially if the IEE is in a very Si/Ne laden situation, OR there is a lot of talking with people they know/like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I can agree, I was thinking about this and realized that I put a lot of energy in and get anxious when there seems to be no progression. It's possible that I want to force the relationship to go deeper faster than it's naturally supposed to, but really, if I left it to the SiTe's pace, nothing would seemingly come to fruition. So if you could "translate" things for me, it would be great. I'd like more encouragement over all, I feel like there's only negative emotions, but it's only because I feel really let down when I see a great potential go to waste knowing that you could have possibly done something to save it.
    What works really good with me is when IEEs leave subtle invites, no pressure deals, letting me know about things. I would encourage that a lot with IEEs, leave them often, but don't always expect him to go. And don't make him feel bad if he doesn't go, but indicate that you'd appreciate it if he did come.

    *NOTA BENE* it can be extremely discouraging, especially initial stages, to go to such an event and then feel neglected or not noticed or appreciated or valued... You don't have to smother them, but make sure you acknowledge them and spend time with them if they do come out. Going out and going to an event or situation TO SEE YOU or BE WITH YOU, and then something getting in the way of that, can be much worse than nothing happening at all. So IEEs, I caution you very much to not get distracted, and not get too interrupted, or, especially, have someone steal you away WHEN you're talking to the SLI. IEEs are generally pretty good at knowing how to relate well to somebody, which is really appealing, and I imageine so to SLIs, too. But what can be painful, even if unintentional, is finally having one-on-one or crucial time with an IEE, and then they get some sort of distraction... what could be a simple distraction or new idea COULD seem like something came up that is more important than who you were talking to.
    (I have a feeling like this is common knowledge but I'm reiterating it just because I know that an SLI I know really, really, loves conversations where we're talking to each other without interruption, etc).

    I'm not sure what to say romantically though as I've never had that sort of intimate relationship with one. It seems to go like this, as far as deepening and broadening conversation - I mention things or bring things up, or there is something mutual that we both talk about and know of. The SLI doesn't initiate a lot of things.

    I wonder, in some cases, if what I do would be better than what IEEs do. IEEs seem more hesitant or perhaps 'more creative' than this, but, it works... and I think it's a pretty good strategy for most delta relationships: Ask them what is going on, and what happened during their day. Become friends first and slowly start asking more questions and knowing more about their lives. The more comfortable with you, the more stuff you talk about.

    IEEs actually don't seem to do that with me, which is strange. But then again maybe I'm not a good example because I initiate so many of the conversations I'm involved in. IEEs kind of float about and make light suggestions? I'm not sure what to say. IEEs (and EIIs) seem to react better to someone showing initiative socially, in my experience--- I'd like some commentary about that, though. But in all of my delta NF relationships, I'm the one who does a lot of the 'driving', I guess. I wonder if that is something they would expect or prefer from SLIs.

    If it is, I can see how it would be disappointing as it's not something they do... but I wonder if you mentioned it to one how they'd react to it.

    I'm really curious right now if I should advise IEEs to be more forward, like what I said in my example - asking about their days and what's going on. I can't tell how assertive you guys are....... perhaps someone could elaborate more on what 'being pushy' or 'being assertive' actually means, from an IEEs perspective?

    I know, based on experiences with one of them, that IEEs are not always the most direct themselves. They'll wonder and think things, but, one of my IEE friends likes me a lot because I say and do things, I make action. So I wonder sometimes if you guys stress about doing things or feel like you are doing something.... but in reality aren't really doing enough, or aren't doing it directly enough. Please comment on this.
    Last edited by UDP; 07-15-2009 at 02:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Now that you mention it, a lot of the IEE's tend to complain about SLI's...dunno maybe they're just trying to figure their dual out...but really people, SLI's aren't this difficult. I'm probobly the simplest person in the world. Over analysing ruins things.
    Let's face it Jess, we suck as human beings. Not even our dual would vouch for us.

    It's all good though; Who needs em??!

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    If you guys are lucky, I might be able to ask one of my IEE friends about this stuff later this week, particularly about the matter of how they initiate things or be assertive relationally, or whatever else (and then post some of the discussion).

    She knows a litttttttle bit about socionics, and is generally curious about stuff like this, so I could try to compare notes with her.
    PS: hmm I could also talk to an SLI, but she's also female, so no male SLI perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    nows a litttttttle bit about socionics, and is generally curious about stuff like this, so I could try to compare notes with her.
    PS: hmm I could also talk to an SLI, but she's also female, so no male SLI perspective.
    Please do. The male SLI / female IEE perspective is annoyingly disproportionate to female SLI / male IEE on the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    One thing that gets me about some of them is that "6:00" tends to mean "6:15...20...25".

    After a while you tend to just expect it. Seems to happen especially if the IEE is in a very Si/Ne laden situation, OR there is a lot of talking with people they know/like.
    At least concerning my personal perspective on this, I will be punctual, if not early, to something if I know my presence is being counted on, or if I go by when I feel like it, someone will feel uncomfortable as they are expecting me, or, it inconveniences someone. Other-wise, I will usually show up late lol It most has to do with remembering everything at the last minute, and then rushing to get ready. And when rushing, I'm prone to making mistakes, which takes me longer. A lot of times I intentionally show up late to social gatherings because I don't like being the first one there, or, I will wait until I know people I know are there. I hate arriving into awkward situations or to parties that I don't know anyone.

    Otherwise, I might say yes to a time and completely miscalculate time, or, I don't want to seem difficult to debate the time if it doesn't seem right for me. And if the event seems completely optional to me and I'm just not in the right mood, or something more comfortable comes up, I'll take it. But if I knew it'd disappoint someone that I was late or didn't show up, I'd be on time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    What works really good with me is when IEEs leave subtle invites, no pressure deals, letting me know about things. I would encourage that a lot with IEEs, leave them often, but don't always expect him to go. And don't make him feel bad if he doesn't go, but indicate that you'd appreciate it if he did come.
    I think this is something I innately do, sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. What I'm guessing is I'd have to invite the SiTe out to something I was already planning on going to with other people, so if he doesn't come, it's not a big deal. A lot of time I put a focus and want to do one-on-one things, and feel disappointed when I leave open time slots for the SiTe and nothing comes of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    *NOTA BENE* it can be extremely discouraging, especially initial stages, to go to such an event and then feel neglected or not noticed or appreciated or valued... You don't have to smother them, but make sure you acknowledge them and spend time with them if they do come out. Going out and going to an event or situation TO SEE YOU or BE WITH YOU, and then something getting in the way of that, can be much worse than nothing happening at all. So IEEs, I caution you very much to not get distracted, and not get too interrupted, or, especially, have someone steal you away WHEN you're talking to the SLI. IEEs are generally pretty good at knowing how to relate well to somebody, which is really appealing, and I imageine so to SLIs, too. But what can be painful, even if unintentional, is finally having one-on-one or crucial time with an IEE, and then they get some sort of distraction... what could be a simple distraction or new idea COULD seem like something came up that is more important than who you were talking to. (I have a feeling like this is common knowledge but I'm reiterating it just because I know that an SLI I know really, really, loves conversations where we're talking to each other without interruption, etc).
    All of this seems like innate knowledge to me, if someone I'm attracted to and want to get closer to comes out with me, my attention is particularly hooked on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    IEEs actually don't seem to do that with me, which is strange. But then again maybe I'm not a good example because I initiate so many of the conversations I'm involved in. IEEs kind of float about and make light suggestions? I'm not sure what to say. IEEs (and EIIs) seem to react better to someone showing initiative socially, in my experience--- I'd like some commentary about that, though. But in all of my delta NF relationships, I'm the one who does a lot of the 'driving', I guess. I wonder if that is something they would expect or prefer from SLIs.

    If it is, I can see how it would be disappointing as it's not something they do... but I wonder if you mentioned it to one how they'd react to it.
    #1 way of getting my attention is to initiate contact- and that's all you really have to do! I'll notice people I'm interested with, whether they are attractive, or telling particularly funny jokes, whatever, and if I'm comfortable enough and can find an opening, I'll just jump in the conversation. But it'll all be in my head, if I'm not particularly confident about how to approach someone, I'll sit there thinking all the different ways I could. And the thing is, I have all these things to say and I could very easily carry a conversation, but that first initial contact is pure anxiety for me, I wish someone just took care of that and then I can blab your ears off if you want me to. Funny enough, all of the SiTe I'm interacting with now have done this, approached me in some manner, and then I would gladly get to know them, grab their number, call, text, entertain, whatever. I don't really need an SiTe to initiate plans afterward really, though I like it when they do. All they have to do is stay in communication and not bail out too often.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I'm really curious right now if I should advise IEEs to be more forward, like what I said in my example - asking about their days and what's going on. I can't tell how assertive you guys are....... perhaps someone could elaborate more on what 'being pushy' or 'being assertive' actually means, from an IEEs perspective?

    I know, based on experiences with one of them, that IEEs are not always the most direct themselves. They'll wonder and think things, but, one of my IEE friends likes me a lot because I say and do things, I make action. So I wonder sometimes if you guys stress about doing things or feel like you are doing something.... but in reality aren't really doing enough, or aren't doing it directly enough. Please comment on this.
    For the most part, you got this right. I'm fine with asking about a person's day and whatever, generating conversation isn't hard for me at all. I am EXTREMELY sensitive to coming off pushy, I fret when I feel like I'm asking someone to go out too often, or, I worry that I'm calling too much or texting too much, enough to the point where I'll try to find out by joking about it to see their reaction. When I want to tell someone I like them, or hint somehow that I want to spend more time with them or whatever, I get very very anxious about what they think, if I'm being too forward or pushy. But this does all go on in my head, I don't speak a word of it to the other person unless I can't take it anymore. I am also very forgiving, in the SiTe's case, I wouldn't show that I'm mad or disappointed when they flake or unintentionally ignore me, I'll very easily accept them back (until they do it too much that I can't take it anymore).

    So, I guess to directly answer your question, I feel pushy when it's possible I'm asking, saying, or requesting something that takes someone out of what I perceive to be their comfort zone. Or would be inconvenient at all, actually. I feel completely comfortable after someone makes it known to me that they are fine with certain topics or requests, but when I don't know, that's a bit of anxiety.

    My best example of everything above comes down to this SiTe and I's interactions a couple months ago. He was the one I started a thread on that he approached me with coffee and then disappeared, before coming back and I invited him to sit and talk with me. I felt like every time the relationship would change, it would be him initiating the change, and then me actually changing it. So, he was the one who asked me if I'd like to go out to dinner or a bar with him, and then I was the one who made sure it happened. He asked for my number, but I monopolized the use of having his. He invited me over his place, and ever since, I'd call randomly to drop by. It was like I was the energy of the relationship and he was the wire, it went where and when he wanted to, to my joy/dismay. The entire time I knew we were extremely compatible, and I wanted to take it further, or at least tell him I liked him so he could think on it and eventually react. Admittedly, I wanted to get physical as well, and I wanted to see if I could add that aspect to the relationship, it seemed like the next step anywho. But there were many times I hesitated and chickened out on saying anything, but I just had NO idea how he'd react. I knew he was attracted to me, but I was still weary for some reason. Eventually one night, he said he wanted to take me to a bar, and feeling like that was a good sign, I told him I liked him. He said he liked me too, but had just gotten involved with someone else... And yeah, let's not get into that So the relationship was passively controlled by him, even though I was the one most likely wanting to move it somewhere.

    Sorry for the ramble But it's possible that we feel like we're doing something but it's not apparent at all... It's the mental process we go through and don't reveal. If this is true, I'm not really sure what would be the best balance... It might just be a lot of unnecessary anxieties. But really, once I establish a way of communicating with someone and I "trust" they are receiving what I'm saying clearly and don't get bothered by it, I'm completely open. But you can't really ask 20 questions to someone you're interested in to see what of your behaviors they do or do not mind. But I'll cut it short here, I'm so bad at writing posts in any organized manner at all lol

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    For the most part, you got this right. I'm fine with asking about a person's day and whatever, generating conversation isn't hard for me at all. I am EXTREMELY sensitive to coming off pushy, I fret when I feel like I'm asking someone to go out too often, or, I worry that I'm calling too much or texting too much, enough to the point where I'll try to find out by joking about it to see their reaction. When I want to tell someone I like them, or hint somehow that I want to spend more time with them or whatever, I get very very anxious about what they think, if I'm being too forward or pushy. But this does all go on in my head, I don't speak a word of it to the other person unless I can't take it anymore. I am also very forgiving, in the SiTe's case, I wouldn't show that I'm mad or disappointed when they flake or unintentionally ignore me, I'll very easily accept them back (until they do it too much that I can't take it anymore).

    So, I guess to directly answer your question, I feel pushy when it's possible I'm asking, saying, or requesting something that takes someone out of what I perceive to be their comfort zone. Or would be inconvenient at all, actually. I feel completely comfortable after someone makes it known to me that they are fine with certain topics or requests, but when I don't know, that's a bit of anxiety.
    Aww, well don't change any of that. I really like IEEs for being that way, it's very sweet to me. You're very sensitive about stuff like that, and it makes things very easygoing.


    My best example of everything above comes down to this SiTe and I's interactions a couple months ago. He was the one I started a thread on that he approached me with coffee and then disappeared, before coming back and I invited him to sit and talk with me. I felt like every time the relationship would change, it would be him initiating the change, and then me actually changing it. So, he was the one who asked me if I'd like to go out to dinner or a bar with him, and then I was the one who made sure it happened. He asked for my number, but I monopolized the use of having his. He invited me over his place, and ever since, I'd call randomly to drop by. It was like I was the energy of the relationship and he was the wire, it went where and when he wanted to, to my joy/dismay. The entire time I knew we were extremely compatible, and I wanted to take it further, or at least tell him I liked him so he could think on it and eventually react. Admittedly, I wanted to get physical as well, and I wanted to see if I could add that aspect to the relationship, it seemed like the next step anywho. But there were many times I hesitated and chickened out on saying anything, but I just had NO idea how he'd react. I knew he was attracted to me, but I was still weary for some reason. Eventually one night, he said he wanted to take me to a bar, and feeling like that was a good sign, I told him I liked him. He said he liked me too, but had just gotten involved with someone else... And yeah, let's not get into that So the relationship was passively controlled by him, even though I was the one most likely wanting to move it somewhere.

    Sorry for the ramble But it's possible that we feel like we're doing something but it's not apparent at all... It's the mental process we go through and don't reveal. If this is true, I'm not really sure what would be the best balance... It might just be a lot of unnecessary anxieties. But really, once I establish a way of communicating with someone and I "trust" they are receiving what I'm saying clearly and don't get bothered by it, I'm completely open. But you can't really ask 20 questions to someone you're interested in to see what of your behaviors they do or do not mind. But I'll cut it short here, I'm so bad at writing posts in any organized manner at all lol
    I know what you need...
    A sometimes blunt but generally helpful LSE friend !
    The kind who would very directly address things with people that you might shy away from. We can do things that might seem overbearing or pushy to you, and you just get to say "oh, that's just how my friend is ", but we get you results, and ask the hard questions.

    It's a really beneficial relationship, ime. The IEE gets to be sweet natured, and the LSE gets to be direct.


    More later maybe.
    PS: .....I was speaking to my SLI friend, and I was going to talk to her about relationships, but she actually mentioned herself that a relationship she's going in isn't going so well.... so it's interesting. Not much to report so far, just that she said she can't do the same thing for too long/ restless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    My IEE friend has had problems with our SLI bud because he drops off the face of the earth if he doesn't have regular contact for whatever reason (work, school, getting stuff he wants/needs). If you want to stay involved with an SLI you seem to kind of have to become a part of the stuff they find essential to their well being, which is more about their activities than just good times and experiences. They don't want to be total hermits, but, damn, they come close some times!
    LOL

    so true
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    You know, the recent (?) burst of IEEs talking about their problems with SLIs on the forum kind of reminds me of IEEsin real life. They generally don't talk bad about people, but if you bring up problems or relational difficulties, they tend to open up in that way more so.
    ha ha true. But at the same time i'm beginning to think that a lot of the frustrations from the IEEs here could simply come from overthinking stuff and applying socionics a little too much (as in a judging as opposed to percieving way) to their life and relations
    n00bIEE

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