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Thread: Alternative/free thinking

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    Olga's Avatar
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    Default Alternative/free thinking

    I thought people have got a lot of imagination here...and hope for replies! It would be good to develop an alternative (associative) description of functions so that people could understand/feel functions better.

    I give an example:

    - abstract/fine/exact matter/materia, concentration/thinking (only possible in content and quiet/"passive" state/mode), rigid/structural/systemic......geometric form/maths...technical intellect/progress, ( I am a bit struglling to find the word from the real world of nature, may be because it is a product of mind?!) -rationality

    - quiet emotion/feeling, deep quiet waters, slow motion/river, contentment/concentration, contemplation/reflection, mirror, deep understanding, sensitivity of feelings...What else?

    - sensitivity of touch, softness of materia, clear and tidy space, lots of it, beauty and taste, coordination, conformity,indulgence (somebody mentioned it before...), pumpering, content/concentrated pleasure,colour -irrationality...anything else?

    - content/controlled, dimensional direction of fire (candle, fireplace), piercing sound, the light from the lighthouse, ray, tune,dissolve, illusion....irrationality. What else?

    - solid/material rigid structure, building, practicality and usefullness, resoursful, active mode, conformity of material forms, architecture...rationality. What else?

    - dynamic, powerful emotions/waterstream, waterfall, stormy sea, flooding or relaxing sound of waterspring in the forest.....rationality.

    -strong wind, tornado, power to move and change, action, earthquake, vibrant colours and loud sounds, hit of the sun, extreame joy/anger, optimism, abundance, distruction and the power of life, sensuality, sex, money, adrenalin -irrationality

    - explosion, uncontrolled fire, active vulcano, burning house, reaction, transformation,revival, regeneration - irrationality

    If we assume that functions are dimensions they may have include some positive and negative charateristics. I was struggling to do it on my own.
    I am sure there are mistakes in those descriptions as it is difficult (or impossible to be objective).


    My idea is to understand better the interaction of functions and compatibility of types. I argue that compatibility of types is different to what socionics suggest.

    1. I believe that for the "perfect" compatibility, Entroversion/Extraversion dimension is not that important and can be compensated by a second strong function. The question is what introverted types can easily appear/play extraverts and what extraverted types can appear as introverts?


    2. I also believe that the key to compatibility is in rationality/irrationality dimension of the same Extraversion / Introversion dimension. It is easy to demonstrate if you look at the first and the last function of
    INTJ - my husband
    ISFJ - me

    We do not irritate each other, we are similar in many ways: he is into builiding structures in his mind and I am into my "deep waters" -internal feelings. However, when I start to use my creative/second function excessively - he get's irritated as it stirs his second creative/function. Sometimes he gets irritated but does not show it and suddently he "explode" than I try to come him down and poor a lot of quiet water on his suddenly eraised vulcano.

    At last, can you compare quadras and assign a particular base function or strong two functions to it?

    For example: Gamma - , Beta- , Alfa- , Delta- .
    It would be interesting to know what you think. WEll, if we shall put them in a row: . May be together we shall come out with something totally different?

    I guess, a lot of things could be understood and explained if we would create an alternative langauge to symbols of socionics.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

  2. #2
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    I haven't really got the question; however, looking at your descriptions, would be the function I relate the most.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Default To FDG

    In what way you think you relate to ?

    There were probably a few/many questions in my post. It was about compatibility, how people describe their function and with what (anything, states, visual pictures, imagination) they can associate their functions?

    What they think about compatibility in a way proposed by socionincs, agree fully, disagree, in what way?

    About imagination. What picture do you see in your mind which makes you relax? What sights attracts you and make you feel better. What do you like to visualise when you are meditating? It can be anything. Associations which are close to your heart and mind, colours?

    For example, I like to have a picture in my mind: a small river/canal, I am on the boat wich moves slowly, there are lots of willow treaas on the sides of the river, water plants and and soft going down sun (not hit or straigt shine. Therefore I am deep quiet waters . I do have a few pictures and you?

    Back to quadras: Alfa - , Beta - , Gamma Delta: Your suggestions?
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Your description appeals most to me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Creepy-

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    I don't relate to any of those descriptions

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    My favorite ones are and .

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    i like the description, too. (:
    6w5 sx
    model Φ: -+0
    sloan - rcuei

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    Olga wrote:
    Back to quadras: Alfa - , Beta - , Gamma Delta: Your suggestions?
    I would like to know your line of thinking of how each quadra is based on two combined functions. I would see Delta more of than though, and beta having at least .

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    Default Line of thinking?

    I think that there is "compatibility" of types like quadras so there must be the general principal of compatibility and for functions as well. I see it in rationality/ irrationality opposition. Rationals fit better with rationals but they use irrationality as a fuel (thanks to the Baby's article!) and on the opposite. So, the idea is, Type can be attached potentially to anything in material and spiritual world bringing the two parts closer together. We are part/product of the nature. We can describe ourselves in abstract thought (symbolic structure of the psyche, rational concept) or we can describe ourselves by using the natural phenomenon -both can be true but would work on different levels -we can make the understanding of socionics easier to understand for those who is not strong in abstract thought and theory. Everything has irrational and ratinal part and I am more interested in irrational world which may be asociated with Mysticism, Phylosophy, and can be named as "associative socionics" or socionics for insane .

    So, can we try to define Quadras initially by considering two major dimensions:rationality/irrationality and extraversion/introversion?

    I see it this way: Alfa is very creative, strong in ideas, theory, abstract thought It fits the best with like quiet focused concentration of thought is similar to the the quet deep water contained within it's shore.(rationality is a stable rythm).

    Beta quadra is inspired by the rational absract thought and is keen to create the real world object (system, stable solid structure) out of the abstract image . The process of building goes well with a speed of the mounteen river - uplifted emotions, loud noise (do the builders like to listen to the music while working?). Beta has got power as a fuel (thanks to Baby again!), it protects the system with harsh methods (Revolution in Russia, Stalin, Hitler) and eliminates everybody and everything what is aliean to the created system. The mechanism is working well but is it really a good mechanism? Is it not the time for Gamma to check it out?

    Are you getting my line of thinking?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    I actually find the descriptions more complicated. But then again I don't really like the 16types descriptions either. If it makes in any sense, in their exactness they seem too vague to me.

    Its like some of symptoms of the functions are explained but not the functions themselves. So when you are taking in an understanding of them, it takes some creative leaps which could be very wrong because without that why to begin with, there could be much more characteristics attributed to those functions than just those that are being listed.

    Personally, I find if I have a good why to start with, the function characteristics make sense and I can probably come up with even more. Without the why, I'm just randomly guessing really.

    Relational wise, I can say hands down I get along better and emphathise with Alpha members better than any other type. I can appreciate the posiitve attributes of many of the other types though but there would always be a bit of distance there for some reason or another.

    I have to say the only ESTp I've heard that doesn't irk me is Herzy! hehe. I really am trying to see their positive qualities though. For someone who is supposed to be unbiased though, I am pretty biased towards them. I think there is a dynamic going on between myself an ESTps that's really weird. At first, I really like them and think they are actually great kind people and even possess a certain kind of wisdom.

    I'm a very helpful person, always the first to volunteer to help those around me when I see they are in need. Sometimes people try to take advantage of this. I will politely explain that they need to back off a bit and how I'm starting to feel etc. etc. When I try with ESTps they seem to take great offence...how dare I accuse them of taking advantage of someone!!. Because I hate conflict, I will walk away at that point then the situation continues (and even a little worse because now the ESTp kind dislikes me for bringing this stuff up). Then they seem to start going a little paranoid at this point...thinking I'm thinking evil thoughts when I'm not.

    I don't blame ESTps for this, its just as much my weakness that I can't deal well with the situation and make it work.

    Besides ESTps, I actually can get a long with pretty much any type. Yeah, my ESFj mom makes me want to naw my own arm off sometimes but she's just such a wonderful woman for the most part you have no choice but to love her.

    I can even take ENFjs mood swings sometimes because I like so many other aspects about them. I really wish I could get over this ESTp thing.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Default Thanks

    Thanks to Polly for contribution. It is always interesting to see how others understand or not understand the meaning. I do try to explain everything in detail but because different types have different perception - it will be always difficulties in understanding the meaning.

    I notice that some people are confused from time to time and I guess some people believe that I rather bring confusion to the theory than facilitating it's understanding. In reality I don't want to confuse people. There will be always disagreements and misunderstandings but I wish people would not be afraid to think freely and to look at the topic/concept from many different perspectives. If you have got a confusion no need to harry to stick to one of the most popular or 'authorised' ones. Why not to dig for more info, take your time, compare and make your own opinion on what is right or wrong. If you have a false one - it is still your own and not somebody's.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Re: Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Thanks to Polly for contribution. It is always interesting to see how others understand or not understand the meaning. I do try to explain everything in detail but because different types have different perception - it will be always difficulties in understanding the meaning.

    I notice that some people are confused from time to time and I guess some people believe that I rather bring confusion to the theory than facilitating it's understanding. In reality I don't want to confuse people. There will be always disagreements and misunderstandings but I wish people would not be afraid to think freely and to look at the topic/concept from many different perspectives. If you have got a confusion no need to harry to stick to one of the most popular or 'authorised' ones. Why not to dig for more info, take your time, compare and make your own opinion on what is right or wrong. If you have a false one - it is still your own and not somebody's.
    Very wise Olga. Its actually pretty much the same argument I use when speaking about the media. People don't realize that they are actually getting popular opinion rather than unbiased facts. While sometimes reporting in an unbiased fashion is actually creating more biases. The only way to know in order to be able to make an actual decision on how you feel about this stuff is to look outside the popular opinioin and research the information yourself.

    If you do it often enough, it doesn't actually take very much time. You find the sources you like which provide opposing points of view.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Olga wrote:
    I see it this way: Alfa is very creative, strong in ideas, theory, abstract thought It fits the best with like quiet focused concentration of thought is similar to the the quet deep water contained within it's shore.(rationality is a stable rythm).

    Beta quadra is inspired by the rational absract thought and is keen to create the real world object (system, stable solid structure) out of the abstract image . The process of building goes well with a speed of the mounteen river - uplifted emotions, loud noise (do the builders like to listen to the music while working?). Beta has got power as a fuel (thanks to Baby again!), it protects the system with harsh methods (Revolution in Russia, Stalin, Hitler) and eliminates everybody and everything what is aliean to the created system. The mechanism is working well but is it really a good mechanism? Is it not the time for Gamma to check it out?

    Are you getting my line of thinking?
    Sorry Olga, I didn't see your response.

    Let me see if I understand, you believe that there is a certain quadra progression/cycle in society? I've heard this before, that societal movements come in cycles. But I don't get the analogies you are giving though, like alpha "fits the best with like quiet focused concentration of thought is similar to the the quiet deep water contained within it's shore."

    Polly G wrote:
    I actually find the descriptions more complicated. But then again I don't really like the 16types descriptions either. If it makes in any sense, in their exactness they seem too vague to me.
    After reading Olga's posts I have noticed that she tries to describe things making analogies with nature, which is similar to some of the type descriptions found in the socioniko website. I agree with you Polly in that the type descriptions are often too vague, which has led me to believe that they are meant to be read by people who favor such type of explanations. In no way I am saying that they are 'wrong,' its just that my preference for an explanation is that it makes 'logical sense,' even if it is an analogy. It would be interesting to compare personality description written by authors of differing types.

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    My version of Si can be found here:

    http://intuitivecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3138
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    is like being able to bend a spoon with your mind.
    I tried to do that, it didn't work. Neither did moving a pencil.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Default Great

    Thanks to all. I will reply soon in more detail.

    I liked that and decided to copy to the site about Si:

    I was gonna save this, for a bit later; since it is my own somewhat opaque, tertiary function. But at special request I'll jump to it next!


    For me Si is a strange and almost mystical frontier. Far enough away from my daily routine to be unknown and mystical. But close enough to home to exert powerful influence when invoked!


    I am most aware of my Si, when I am confronted with images of the past. It could be my personal past. Pictures, thought, and places that recall a nostalgic and fiecely loyal connection to the past.

    This can happen just as hard when walk around an ancient city in Europe. I'll feel a surreal connection to the people and events that happened there. An almost spiritual tie. The closer my cultural connection to the place and it's symbols the harder the "tug"


    Frankly, once the novelty of this forceful tug wears off, I typically find Si rather disturbing. Alotta times it leaves me feeling 'loss' for what was, what is gone.

    This I believe isn't so much a comment on Si, so much as my thus so far limited development of it.


    Please share your own experiances with Si!!!!

    To Polly and Fever:

    I actually saw the young person doing exactly this: bending tea spoon just by looking at them when I worked in a Tourist shop with lots of little things for sale. We not only found a few spoons bended but also objects in the odd places. I remember him was sitting on the floor and looking at the shelf with spoons very focused and concentrated for a few minutes. That was odd but we didn't think anything. We tought he might be just a noughty boy of 16-18 y.o.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Olga's Avatar
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    Default To Arcanum

    To Arcanum:

    You did not understand this bit:

    I see it this way: Alfa is very creative, strong in ideas, theory, abstract thought It fits the best with like quiet focused concentration of thought is similar to the the quet deep water contained within it's shore.(rationality is a stable rythm).

    I explain. In socionincs the base and the last function out of four are the same dimension: rational or irrational. For example, ... ... or
    ... ... . I consider this compatibility as more important than that one proposed by socionincs. I am . In socionic my dual is . I suggest my dual is - mirror relationship.

    My perceptionof Alfa quadra is of the time when ideas are created or the situation when ideas blossom. I associate ideas and theories with and this is how I define the base function of Alfa Qaudra. At this stage there is no stormy wether because for concetration and tinking you need
    contentment. Thought and emotion do not go hand in hand. That means Alpha have to be conceived at the period of peace, harmony...and boredom... :wink: I am talking about Delta quadra as a basis for Alpha.
    Alpha has not got power and has not got - they do not fullfil the dieas - only produce.

    When I talked about compatibility of types I compared with
    Socionincs suggest that for the type with a base function will be dual with the base function and I disagree. Abstarct thinking needs peace and quiet, focuce, concentration and abosorbance and that is why suits the most because they share this stable rythm and contentment. is powerful in emotions, more lively (more seeking attention of others) -fontain, cascade, waterfall, radio which is always on.
    (Well, in real life, compatibility will depend on many other factors -bear this in mind - the borders are always blurred). Do you understand now why I pair this functions when i talk about comaptibility in general?

    If I said Alpha's base function is I have to finsh with the fourth function as .

    I would like to say now briefly about Gamma: ... ...

    Alpha and Beta are rational quadras. It makes sense and logic has to be completed: you create a theory and you materialise it. But it is a bit too much of rationality - it goes to extreame - and we don't want that! People may start to believe that they are Gods and can do anything they want.
    It's time to show who is the real boss here! A little bit of earthquake, tornado, zunami and vulkano - will do the job! It's time for animal power against the rational mind. Gamma destroyes what is not worth to keep and brings change, mobilises people's power, takes on the qaulitatively different level. It brings Life into stagnated processes and builds around what has survived. Then is the time for decorators: to clean up the mess, to put a nice chair close to the fire place and not to forget candles on the talbles for romantic atmosphere. At last we can relax and enjoy the life!
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Re: Great

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Thanks to all. I will reply soon in more detail.

    I liked that and decided to copy to the site about Si:

    I was gonna save this, for a bit later; since it is my own somewhat opaque, tertiary function. But at special request I'll jump to it next!


    For me Si is a strange and almost mystical frontier. Far enough away from my daily routine to be unknown and mystical. But close enough to home to exert powerful influence when invoked!


    I am most aware of my Si, when I am confronted with images of the past. It could be my personal past. Pictures, thought, and places that recall a nostalgic and fiecely loyal connection to the past.

    This can happen just as hard when walk around an ancient city in Europe. I'll feel a surreal connection to the people and events that happened there. An almost spiritual tie. The closer my cultural connection to the place and it's symbols the harder the "tug"


    Frankly, once the novelty of this forceful tug wears off, I typically find Si rather disturbing. Alotta times it leaves me feeling 'loss' for what was, what is gone.

    This I believe isn't so much a comment on Si, so much as my thus so far limited development of it.


    Please share your own experiances with Si!!!!
    umm... I didn't write that btw.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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