EIIs and not giving up on someone

[Lobo]

I would like to your experiences and thoughts (if any). Do you know of any stories about this, where the perseverance of an EII to achieve change in a person has actually worked? I guess this only applies to some EIIs in particular. It's just hard for me to give up :/.

[Mattie]

It's hard for me to give up sometimes, but if I'm frustrated and I feel justified, and a new opportunity comes up, I'm outta there. It's really not fair when you put in so much effort and get nothing out of it... You see the good that can happen and it seems like nothing you can do will help other than being patient. And that only *sometimes* works. There comes a point to move on, I think I stick around more than usual, but only when I feel I've tried everything I could think of.

[The Greeter]

Most definitely. It's not necessarily about changing someone as much as trying to improve them and make their life better. There have been many times when my perseverance paid off and, in my rather optimistic opinion, helping me continue my attempts to improve the lives of those I deeply care for.

I share your sentiments, Sereno, it is incredibly difficult for me to give up. So much so that I can't recall a time when I truly have.

Although it may sound like a noble characteristic, I know it can annoy some. Particularly those who are already quite content with their life or much prefer to achieve it themselves, almost as if by letting me help them means their independence is lost. But that's not my intention. Once things look up, once I see that things are at there best or close to it, the choice of still keeping me in their life is up to the person to decide. I feel very disposable.

As for an example, I do have one. My old SLI boyfriend was really going no where in life and did miscellaneous jobs until he met me. I could tell he was rather lost, so after following me to University, I suggested some majors to pursue which I thought he would enjoy. After considering my suggestions, he found a subject he passionately enjoyed and is doing remarkably well completely on his own will. Though our relationship had ended by then, our friendship remained and the SLI thanked me for giving him direction and being there for him.

[Creepy-]

I was going to start a thread about Delta NFs giving people second [and third, and beyond] chances. From what I've seen, EIIs in particular can get hurt repeatedly and in the same ways by a person they care about, yet still give chance after chance seemingly ad infinitum. I don't understand it, and tbh it has frustrated me sometimes when the EII is someone I care about but they just refuse to kick the person OUT.

To answer your question, I've never seen an attempt to change someone else work in the long term; it can and often does seem to work long enough for them to get out of the dog house, however, at which point the cycle begins again


EDIT: Actually, the title of this thread is interesting: EIIs and not giving up on someone. Is it that you guys view dumping [in a romantic relationship sense or otherwise] someone as "giving up on" them? If so, that's an interesting way of looking at it. And is this a Delta NF thing or more an EII thing? [Sereno, I can start a new thread if you want since you said this one is meant to be about EIIs in particular.]

[The Greeter]

I interpreted the question as not really related to relationships. Although, for me to not want to give up on someone there has to be one. The focus of the question was about the actual person, I think. Maintaining bonds isn't particularly difficult for me since I can easily accept someone for who they are.

I don't know if it's exlcusively a Delta NF trait. I would hope not.

[ProcrastinateTomorrow]

They get three chances from me but and after that I wouldn't give them my spit.

[Minde]

I would like to your experiences and thoughts (if any). Do you know of any stories about this, where the perseverance of an EII to achieve change in a person has actually worked? I guess this only applies to some EIIs in particular. It's just hard for me to give up :/.

Hm, in terms of how hard or easy it is to give up on someone, it depends. On thing I've noticed that is a big factor is how they treat people I love. They can treat me somewhat badly and I can often excuse or get over it, but if they hurt others I'm close to then it's a lot easier for me to cut off support. But generally I tend to hold onto hope and the relationship longer, perhaps, than a lot of people would.

As far as the positive results of holding on... I guess it depends on what I'm doing. There's often a fine line between supporting and enabling, I think. I've had to be "rescued" from enabling people before. But there are also times that I can think of that if I had given up then some good might not have come.

I was going to start a thread about Delta NFs giving people second [and third, and beyond] chances. From what I've seen, EIIs in particular can get hurt repeatedly and in the same ways by a person they care about, yet still give chance after chance seemingly ad infinitum. I don't understand it, and tbh it has frustrated me sometimes when the EII is someone I care about but they just refuse to kick the person OUT.

I don't know if this would help you understand any, but for me often the fear of the pain of separation/breaking-of-relation is stronger than the current pains that I get put through.

EDIT: Actually, the title of this thread is interesting: EIIs and not giving up on someone. Is it that you guys view dumping [in a romantic relationship sense or otherwise] someone as "giving up on" them? If so, that's an interesting way of looking at it. And is this a Delta NF thing or more an EII thing? [Sereno, I can start a new thread if you want since you said this one is meant to be about EIIs in particular.]

I think you can break off a romantic relationship - change the status - without giving up on someone or breaking off the relation entirely. It kind of depends on the situation, though. Is that what you were asking?

[UDP]

It's very gratifying to help delta NFs break out of situations or relationships that are not benefiting them much.

PS: Yes, I fully acknowledge that delta NFs have helped me and been really good to me... and that there are times when 'my advice' to break them off of things could be used to break me off from some NFs at times. I understand that.

In general I see my role as to be the advocate who is paying more attention to what really is bringing benefit in an immediate sense, as opposed to what could be in long terms. Delta NFs are very good at the latter, I balance them out by focusing on the former.

[Minde]

It's very gratifying to help delta NFs break out of situations or relationships that are not benefiting them much.

I should toss you out on your ear...

[UDP]

I should toss you out on your ear...

Mmm, and I you.

[Minde]

Mmm, and I you.

That goes with my point.

[Lobo]

It's hard for me to give up sometimes, but if I'm frustrated and I feel justified, and a new opportunity comes up, I'm outta there. It's really not fair when you put in so much effort and get nothing out of it... You see the good that can happen and it seems like nothing you can do will help other than being patient. And that only *sometimes* works. There comes a point to move on, I think I stick around more than usual, but only when I feel I've tried everything I could think of.

Yes. The problem is knowing exactly when to move on, and when everything has been tried.

Most definitely. It's not necessarily about changing someone as much as trying to improve them and make their life better. There have been many times when my perseverance paid off and, in my rather optimistic opinion, helping me continue my attempts to improve the lives of those I deeply care for.

I enjoy improving people's lives, but I've noticed in time that this is actually a selfish thing in some cases. Depending on who it is and circumstance, I can either do it to truly live up to an ideology I have or simply because I want someone to care for me more deeply. Of course I'm only speaking for myself, but just maybe, EIIs in general have a tendency to hide the underlying desire of being loved unconditionally, and working hard to get more of it, by using an ideology in front... However, there are times that I have proved to myself that this does not apply. For example, I once broke things off with a friend because the stuff going on was just too much for me at the time. I wasn't focusing on my career development because of all the drama and sensitive thing going on, so I thought it best to go separate ways officially, which I did. However, one part of me saw it as giving up, and the situation went on to be more ideological than anything else (my conscience is a real pain in the ass sometimes). So, after a short time I tried to not sever things completely and shift gears to a "I want to still help you out with things" rather than just not completely severing ties. This is one of the times that I've proven to myself that I can actually care for someone unselfishly.

A sharper distinction of the two things I'm describing is the difference between being in a relationship and maybe helping someone who is disabled. In the first case I do it for the unconditional love, and the second based on an ideology, mixed with feelings.

I was going to start a thread about Delta NFs giving people second [and third, and beyond] chances. From what I've seen, EIIs in particular can get hurt repeatedly and in the same ways by a person they care about, yet still give chance after chance seemingly ad infinitum. I don't understand it, and tbh it has frustrated me sometimes when the EII is someone I care about but they just refuse to kick the person OUT.

I don't understand it either. But actually, I would think other types do this as well. "Love" makes people do stupid things regardless of type.

EDIT: Actually, the title of this thread is interesting: EIIs and not giving up on someone. Is it that you guys view dumping [in a romantic relationship sense or otherwise] someone as "giving up on" them? If so, that's an interesting way of looking at it. And is this a Delta NF thing or more an EII thing? [Sereno, I can start a new thread if you want since you said this one is meant to be about EIIs in particular.]

How dare you derail my thread? . It's fine. Yes, dumping can definitely be a form of giving up for me. But I do realize that I have my mental sanity at stake when staying with someone. It's a balancing act. If I had all of the energy and non-caring attitude in the world, I doubt I'd dump anybody. There just comes a point where you have to care of yourself, and that's where you need confidence to see that. I want to live my life and enjoy it. However, an ideology can sometimes go beyond "just living," and that's when it gets really complicated.

I interpreted the question as not really related to relationships. Although, for me to not want to give up on someone there has to be one. The focus of the question was about the actual person, I think. [b]Maintaining bonds isn't particularly difficult for me since I can easily accept someone for who they are.[/i]

I don't know if it's exlcusively a Delta NF trait. I would hope not.

I'd like to say that I know how someone is, rather than accept how they are . I think ESIs would just get disgusted and wonder how certain people are even allowed to live, very cut and dry.

Hm, in terms of how hard or easy it is to give up on someone, it depends. On thing I've noticed that is a big factor is how they treat people I love. They can treat me somewhat badly and I can often excuse or get over it, but if they hurt others I'm close to then it's a lot easier for me to cut off support. But generally I tend to hold onto hope and the relationship longer, perhaps, than a lot of people would.

As far as the positive results of holding on... I guess it depends on what I'm doing. There's often a fine line between supporting and enabling, I think. I've had to be "rescued" from enabling people before. But there are also times that I can think of that if I had given up then some good might not have come.

I don't know if this would help you understand any, but for me often the fear of the pain of separation/breaking-of-relation is stronger than the current pains that I get put through.

I think you can break off a romantic relationship - change the status - without giving up on someone or breaking off the relation entirely. It kind of depends on the situation, though. Is that what you were asking?

You did answer my vague question. What I bolded is something that I can relate to. This is the reason why I sometimes choose to put a dry barrier around me.

It's very gratifying to help delta NFs break out of situations or relationships that are not benefiting them much.

PS: Yes, I fully acknowledge that delta NFs have helped me and been really good to me... and that there are times when 'my advice' to break them off of things could be used to break me off from some NFs at times. I understand that.

In general I see my role as to be the advocate who is paying more attention to what really is bringing benefit in an immediate sense, as opposed to what could be in long terms. Delta NFs are very good at the latter, I balance them out by focusing on the former.

LSEs seem to get a kick out of becoming a somewhat mentor to people, giving the hard facts. But I see that it's possible to get so caught up in the self-gratification that the help backfires because sometimes people just want some validation and understanding, not someone that sees it as some kind of game. This is just something that I see could happen.

[UDP]

LSEs seem to get a kick out of becoming a somewhat mentor to people, giving the hard facts. But I see that it's possible to get so caught up in the self-gratification that the help backfires because sometimes people just want some validation and understanding, not someone that sees it as some kind of game. This is just something that I see could happen.

Absolutely.
The biggest enemy in mentoring or helping anyone in that kind of way is myself or my own ego -- even if you are 'right', you have to think "is this really helping the person?" "Is this what they need right now?" It's very easy (for me at least) to see flaws and how to correct them...... but translating that into the proper form so that it actually benefits the person, that's not natural. I'm glad I know socionics for that, it helps... a little. I still have to check myself often, learn to humble myself, and realize my mistakes. It's not easy. Sometimes a lot of times people, like delta NFs, have to point it out to me..... sometimes that have to 'beat some sense into me' because I'm very stubborn. But I know that trying to help or 'mentor' someone requires just as much of willingness to be critiqued and grow yourself.

But I see that it's possible to get so caught up in the self-gratification that the help backfires because sometimes people just want some validation and understanding, not someone that sees it as some kind of game

Yes. I've been there, I've done it. I've enjoyed a great deal giving various "dad-lectures" to people, sometimes bc I thought I was the only one who would, and also sometimes because it was an ego thing. And definitely realizing that sometimes peoplle need validation and understanding ... that's something that I'm learning from delta NFs really slowly. In fact, even tonight I realized that someone needed that... and that I (and some others) have been telling some person too much of "what you need to do".... and right now, said person needs just that - validation and understanding (and time)

...(so thanks for reminding me again)...


PS: the thing is, when you are actually doing things right, it's great. When you have the right balance of listening, developing trust, careful but accurate guidance/advice, validation, understanding, etc - it's really great. And you can really feel the difference between when you're doing that and connecting, and then when you're just running your mouth and splashing advice at someone. It takes some special things for that to happen, but I think it's easier the more you do it. I'm not perfect but I'm learning how to do that more, and the results are really nice.

PPS: it is easy to wuss out though, because when you start talking to people like that, you have to back it up with your own actions and lifestyle and efforts, otherwise it's nothing. So even challenging others or 'advising' others, you need to be able to swallow your own medicine. Yet in doing so, you become more badass.

PPPS: "This is just something that I see could happen." - yeah, it really helps to have delta NFs to point out stuff like that to me.

[Danielle]

I agree that a lot of this is about my own ego. I just don't know how else to relate to people I care about. And a lot of times people like that about me, that I don't give up on them and always believe in them. So since they like that then I rely on that even more.

Has it ever worked? Hmm.

This is a story from before I heard of Socionics.

I was first the best friend and then the girlfriend of this ILI (I have a real weakness for them). He was a mess of issues, from crises of faith to not being able to make friends. He really needed friends besides me. I "worked on him" for a LONG time. Used everything I had to help him reach out, be confident, have faith, feel secure, let his light shine blah blah blah. He finally worked up the nerve to join this group of people and make a circle of friends out of them (with a lot of encouragement from me). There was a SEE girl in the group. Now I still loved him very much but there were obstacles to us being together so even though it wouldn't make sense to anyone else I helped him woo and pursue her and become desirable to her. I don't know if we realized that's what was happening but it was. He and I never really broke up through all this. Then one day I got this email saying that his feelings were too strong to continue being "friends" with me while pursuing a relationship with her.

I was so so sad, yet a part of me was glad that WOO he DID IT!!! Yay!! I am so perverse that I'm happy my best friend dumped me at least he has a chance of happiness and love!! What the heck?!! cry cry cry

I hated losing my best friend, but hey, he did change and grow right? And that's what I wanted. So I think in that instance it worked?

[necrosebud]

It doesn't seem to work I think (..?) iirc
I would call it idealism more than perseverance

I have it for the world really, and that one definitely doesn't work. I don't wish every single individual to change, but the more vulnerable you are, they more you are going to get screwed over it seems and I wish people would stand up and protect - but they don't and they likely never will.

[Rebelondeck]

I've known EIIs to easily write people off although they're not immune to having obsessions like every other type. If they think that a particular person has wronged them, EIIs tend to relive the moments - especially the path to the final write-off.

a.k.a. I/O

[Minde]

@Rebelondeck is on point, as usual.


I've been thinking a little lately about various relationships / friendships that have come and gone in my life. Some are just your normal two-people-walking-their-own-paths types of separation. But some are people who I put effort into, endured conflict and/or hardship, some level of pain, but still tried to support and keep a connection - and then it just became too much and their "status" in my mind changed - kind of a "snapping". When that happens, it's hard for them to shift back even if they want to. I do still think wistfully about them sometimes, wishing some things had been different. Although, other times I look back and think, "Wow, I'm glad they're out of my life! That really wasn't good for me."

For example, there have been a handful of men that I had developed relationships with (not always explicitly romantic), where there'd be a good deal of deeper communication, emotional support (significantly on my part), and then some sort of tension would appear or build. Since I do tend to hang on with hope for a better day, sometimes that would last years. But I also have a stubborn streak for what I like or value, and that seems to have been part of the rub with these men. I also, thankfully, have developed a certain standard by which I want to be treated, and once all of them crossed that boundary (whatever it happened to be - though usually it was some obvious devaluation of my friendship / me) then I dropped them. Not always without tears, but the decision was itself fairly easy and obvious for me.

If you explicitly reject me or devalue me then we're done, and you move to the outer circle. I don't even have to be mad (though anger helps with swiftness and is usually present). It's kind of more just... logical.

None of those men have made a comeback. It might be possible to do so, but would require more effort than they want to put in.