Duality relationships and gender roles

[EllaC]

Yah yah I know it's boring how idealised the dual relation is. But I'm just wondering your experiences or your opinion - how does it work, when it's the wrong way round?

I.e. say in my case ENTp, I'm out, finding new opportunities all the time, I spend my day doing this, and yet, it wouldn't feel right to do that to the opposite sex as much, espescially a dual?

I don't really even know what this thread is about. Feel free to reply if you can make sense of it

[Wynch]

Bahahaha, this barely made sense. Are you talking about when you have logical female - feeling male, or something else entirely? I think your example is what confuses the issue.

[Cyrano]

Yah yah I know it's boring how idealised the dual relation is. But I'm just wondering your experiences or your opinion - how does it work, when it's the wrong way round?

I.e. say in my case ENTp, I'm out, finding new opportunities all the time, I spend my day doing this, and yet, it wouldn't feel right to do that to the opposite sex as much, espescially a dual?

I don't really even know what this thread is about. Feel free to reply if you can make sense of it

I'm an ISTP, quiet, reserved, bound by reason, and self-imposed structure. How could I not be drawn to ENFPs willing to understand me and willing to draw me into their world, at the same time needing my sense of direction, and easy-going nature.

ENFP and ISTP = peanutbutter and jelly. I'm the peanut butter.

[EllaC]

Bahahaha, this barely made sense. Are you talking about when you have logical female - feeling male, or something else entirely? I think your example is what confuses the issue.

Yes that's what I mean But I actually wonder if there's a valid point there? I'm not sure :s

and ISTPjim... ahh that sounds nice, I've took a few ISTps into my world before, and enjoyed the process.

[Brilliand]

Logical female - ethical male has trouble due to societal pressure to not be themselves, but I think that's all...

[Wynch]

Logical female - ethical male has trouble due to societal pressure to not be themselves, but I think that's all...

There's also issues with expectations. People expect women to be ethical, so they treat them like they're ethical, assume they think like they're ethical, etc. People assume a lot of things just because of the body parts you have. Being a logical female in a family of logicals (including logical women) has been an interesting journey. I'm pretty sure that's the biggest reason I'm such a feminazi.

Heck, you should have seen me before first year university. My SEI roomie from that year played a pretty huge role in teaching me how to compromise between telling social expectation to go fuck itself and working with the system.

[Lobo]

Logical female - ethical male has trouble due to societal pressure to not be themselves, but I think that's all...

Yep, societal pressure is a bitch. I've had girls tell me that I'm dry and cold, and guys tell me that I'm too sensitive... I don't even know what "being myself" is with all the male-female logical-feeler bullshit. In that sense, there is mutual understanding between people who feel like they need to go against what society wants you to be. So I don't think it would be necessarily bad to be in such a duality coupling.

[redbaron]

There's also issues with expectations. People expect women to be ethical, so they treat them like they're ethical, assume they think like they're ethical, etc.

I have an SEI male friend who TRIES to act logical. Oh my, he fails. Anyway, it's funny, he ended up marrying this EII. But what I was going to say is that I agree with Vero--especially among the older generation, men are expected to be logical and women expected to be ethical so there can be some difficulty. But I'll bet when you're one-on-one with your dual and especially after you've known each other for awhile, all of that simply falls away.

My younger brother is IEI and my sister-in-law is SLE. Talk about a role-reversal there! My mother had a hard time with it. She used to say things like (oh you'll get a kick out of this) "I wish my boy had been the oldest child so that he'd be more of a leader. I worry that him marrying her and letting her call the shots is going to backfire someday and she's going to want HIM to lead." hahaha How wrong she was. She just had no clue and totally bought into the whole gender-roles thing. Ridiculous. They have the strongest marriage I know and have been soul-mates since they met at the age of 16.

[electric sheep]

My roommate is an ESE. He's likes to argue, but he always ends up sounding like a complete douche when he does it. I swear he'll say just about anything if he thinks it will win him the argument. So I yell at him for being an asshole and he sulks for a few days. I've stopped getting into arguments with him because he wont stop until I start yelling or I leave the room.

He seems to be driven by conflicting desires. He's really competitive in sports and things like that, but he wants to please everyone at the same time. It never really works out for him. Poor guy

[redbaron]

He's really competitive in sports and things like that, but he wants to please everyone at the same time. It never really works out for him. Poor guy

that's my husband too.

[mikemex]

Both ethical men and logical women feel somewhat alienated by society. When you're a male you don't get along with other males and get treated with suspicion by females. When you are a female you don't get along with other females and keep distance from men.

I suppose duality is far more enjoyable this way.

[The Exception]

Sometimes I try to act like an ethical type. I have no clue why. What a fucking stupid idea.

The role function for LII's is that might have something to do with it.

[The Exception]

It's that I try to mimic.

Maybe because you'll have a better chance of attracting your dual by using , since that's the dual's base function.

[mu4]

Hopefully this is the way it works.

I annoy them. They correct and forgive me. We make each other laugh. Repeat.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I myself feel guilty and awkward about my own faggy qualities and my own emotional interpretation about things. It's like I have this issue where part of my brain says 'Oh boo-hoo, snap out of it you fag!' Kind of like that stereotypical angry straight male stepdad in the Lifetime network that's the de-factor villain in all of their bad, campy movies starring Judith Light. Gay men both eroticize and abhor these type of men.

Cops and 'macho men' have been our most brutal opponents, yet are also the most homoerotic. Guys that can treat us with love and understanding, we brush them off and don't find them sexy enough. It's an interesting social dynamic. I see women do the same thing to 'nice guys.' Where's the PASSION, where's the INTENSITY! Shit. I just lost three teeth from being throat fucked so hard! It's all normal, right?

It seems to be some sort of balance. That blurry line, that's what creates the erotic tension. Too far over 'nice guy' or 'asshole' and we're not interested.

Shit I love you guys. <3

[Brilliand]

Both ethical men and logical women feel somewhat alienated by society. When you're a male you don't get along with other males and get treated with suspicion by females. When you are a female you don't get along with other females and keep distance from men.

I suppose duality is far more enjoyable this way.

Logical females and ethical males have plenty of same-sex duals... and same-sex conflictors. Anyway, I don't think it's as bad as you make out; duality is closer at hand, at least.

[smilodon]

Both ethical men and logical women feel somewhat alienated by society. When you're a male you don't get along with other males and get treated with suspicion by females. When you are a female you don't get along with other females and keep distance from men.

I suppose duality is far more enjoyable this way.

I have had mixed experience with this.

One of my professors this last semester was a female definite LII and worked in the car industry for awhile before switching to academia. Anyway in the class that I had with her she kept talking about cars and this lead one of the students to think that she was a butch lesbian, and then when she talked about her husband in class (ESFj i think but I have never met him) and this kid that thought she was a lesbian sat there with his mouth hanging open.

OTOH, I know two ESE-LII(m-f) (though one of them might(unlikely) be SEI-ILE)pairs and I don't think any of them have social problems and get along very well with most people in the school.

I get along with with ethical men, I think this is because they balance or provide a different perspective of things.

[Creepy-]

If duals develop their relationship properly and take an interest in each other, the extravert can show initiative in forming a more intimate relationship (friendship or romance).

In the beginning stages of dual relationships things go more smoothly if partners stick to type-related "zones of responsibility" and leave the other areas to their duals. Trying to take over areas that the other person is more competent in and sensitive to can cause awkwardness and misunderstandings. Later, when people know each other well, much more flexibility is possible. Here is a rough outline of those zones of responsibility:

Extravert: Adding new "food" (new material, situations, or facets) to the relationship. Expanding the relationship. Calling the other up and actively showing interest (in the beginning of the relationship).

Introvert: Keeping inventory of what ground has been covered in the relationship. Processing the relationship. Accepting others' invitations (in the beginning of the relationship).

I understand that this is how it works in theory, but what about when the extravert is woman and the introvert is a man - which one prevails irl: gender roles, where the man pursues the woman, or socionics roles, where the extravert gets the ball rolling?


In my opinion it's best to let things happen as naturally as possible, without worrying over gender roles, socionics, etc. However, what seems to work best ime is letting the guy pursue, introvert or not. I am curious about others' thoughts and experiences w this....

[jewels]

yeah I agree SoapOfSapphire. Letting the guy pursue works out better in my opinion. Gender roles do make a difference in dating.

As an extrovert though, being yourself IS good! You'll naturally ask more questions/talk a fair amount around an ISTp you feel comfortable with. And that makes them comfortable, and so on. So it encourages them to pursue even more I think.

So I think it's best to be yourself, but also let the guys do what they do, because only then can you be sure they're interested. If you're doing most of the calling, etc., it's hard to tell if they're just going along with it.

Even now, though I do text and call, I also prefer my bf contacts me because it reminds me he is trying and cares ISTps can be hard to read so you have to leave some room to see their actions to remind you they care...so I try to not call every single time I want to just to see if he'll call first .

I remember making the first move, etc., in the past...and while done in moderation it's probably ok, the risk of scaring the guy off initially is just too great. You want to give him room to feel like he's in control. The times I became more assertive and started texting or whatever were the times he either wasn't all that intersted or was a player (and I couldn't tell because I was doing all the work).

It's just like the "he's just not that into you," movie. Some of the examples were ridiculous, but i know girls who will do those sorts of things. It just doesn't work well most of the time.

Oh, and the "he's an introvert and too shy so I have to help" thing just isn't true. When introverts have really liked me, they have put themselves out there to ask me out and risk rejection, etc. And though it may be harder for them to do, they'll appreciate you saying "yes" to the date more too! I remember being surprised by INTps, INTjs and INFps that they'd be gutsy like that. But they can be! So let them do their thing.

[Creepy-male]

Oh, and the "he's an introvert and too shy so I have to help" thing just isn't true. When introverts have really liked me, they have put themselves out there to ask me out and risk rejection, etc. And though it may be harder for them to do, they'll appreciate you saying "yes" to the date more too! I remember being surprised by INTps, INTjs and INFps that they'd be gutsy like that. But they can be! So let them do their thing.

+1

This is where gender roles start; they end once the relationship comes into full swing, and Socionics begins, imo.

[silverchris9]

Fuck gender roles. I WISH a girl would ask me out. It would probably even be kinda hot. Unless it was a girl I didn't want to go out with (actually, that's happened before, but she was the school slut-in-training, and had had a crush on literally every boy in the school--that being said, it wasn't entirely her fault, she had a rough life, etc., etc., etc.).

Although, I was doing a bit of thinking, and it occurred to me that I do think I'll like being on top, so maybe that's a place where gender roles will do me a favor with my SLEs.

But, to answer the question seriously, gender roles, in general. But after the first few dates, when the relationship is firmly a relationship, I think then it's OK for the extroverted girl to sort of take charge. But that's just my imagining, woefully devoid of experience.

[DirectorAbbie]

I expect the guy to at least make the initial move. After that I'll take over if he wants.

[Suz]

yeah I agree SoapOfSapphire. Letting the guy pursue works out better in my opinion. Gender roles do make a difference in dating.

As an extrovert though, being yourself IS good! You'll naturally ask more questions/talk a fair amount around an ISTp you feel comfortable with. And that makes them comfortable, and so on. So it encourages them to pursue even more I think.

So I think it's best to be yourself, but also let the guys do what they do, because only then can you be sure they're interested. If you're doing most of the calling, etc., it's hard to tell if they're just going along with it.

Even now, though I do text and call, I also prefer my bf contacts me because it reminds me he is trying and cares ISTps can be hard to read so you have to leave some room to see their actions to remind you they care...so I try to not call every single time I want to just to see if he'll call first .

I remember making the first move, etc., in the past...and while done in moderation it's probably ok, the risk of scaring the guy off initially is just too great. You want to give him room to feel like he's in control. The times I became more assertive and started texting or whatever were the times he either wasn't all that intersted or was a player (and I couldn't tell because I was doing all the work).

It's just like the "he's just not that into you," movie. Some of the examples were ridiculous, but i know girls who will do those sorts of things. It just doesn't work well most of the time.

Oh, and the "he's an introvert and too shy so I have to help" thing just isn't true. When introverts have really liked me, they have put themselves out there to ask me out and risk rejection, etc. And though it may be harder for them to do, they'll appreciate you saying "yes" to the date more too! I remember being surprised by INTps, INTjs and INFps that they'd be gutsy like that. But they can be! So let them do their thing.

OOPS. . .

[tiny_dancer]

Yeah, every time I've expressed interest in a guy, it's never worked out. So you have to pretend like you're not interested by having a raging social life on the side, and hopefully mutual friends who will casually remind him how much fun you're having that he's not part of. It's really the only way.

[jewels]

yeah it is annoying to have to deal w/ these dumb gender role things (I agree completely!), but they do work.

I find even in a relationship the ISTp has the upper hand in random ways. One thing I really liked about INFps or INTps was they'd usually let me be in control and make decisions (which I liked as I could be less like my "gender role") but then again, they'd at times randomly rebel in the victim way. I wouldn't want to put them back in their place the way they wanted me to (Se). lol. If I was firm w/ them it made me feel "mean" even though I knew it's what they wanted.

Still, it was nice to be like "Come over. We're going to do this. Then we're going to do that." And have them immediately show up. yay! I really like those laid-back guys .

So it's all very confusing. I do really like to be the "leader" in a lot of ways, and have someone go along w/ what I want to do, be flexible, etc. However, w/ ISTps I feel like they want to feel like they're in control. I notice they'll fight me, even on things I should be the "leader" on, such as social decisions of who will get along well at who won't, etc.

So I have to be more like "so do you want to go to X" instead of "so I wanna do this, let's go." Or "Do you think we should invite X or Y?" Even though I already know who I want to invite. It's kinda dumb I guess.

The illusion they are in control seems to need to remain w/ the ISTps. I wish there was some perfect compromise between getting to be the leader and them not being victims...

that made no sense, sorry!

[tiny_dancer]

Actually it did to me. I noticed those kinds of things with my ex.

[redbaron]

Jewels is right.

[silverchris9]

The illusion they are in control seems to need to remain w/ the ISTps. I wish there was some perfect compromise between getting to be the leader and them not being victims...

Solution: become an LSE. Of course, then you have to suffer through being an LSE... (jk).

[Beautiful sky]

Well, I would really like to be asked for my number and called up, invited out, but I wouldn't mind picking the place and time to hang out. I love my man to wear the pants, but he has to know that I iron them.

[The Greeter]

I personally don't care much for gender roles and how they play their part.

I have both asked out and been asked out. As far as I can tell, it doesn't bother either sex (me: female, the subject of interest: male) if the ultimate desire is mutual.

[Creepy-female]

Well, I would really like to be asked for my number and called up, invited out, but I wouldn't mind picking the place and time to hang out. I love my man to wear the pants, but he has to know that I iron them.

[redbaron]

Well, I would really like to be asked for my number and called up, invited out, but I wouldn't mind picking the place and time to hang out. I love my man to wear the pants, but he has to know that I iron them.

hmmm, I do enjoy ironing actually.

[Slacker]

I think we fit into pretty strict gender roles, but I think I was the pursuer. I'm definitely the extraverted one, regardless of any gender roles, and have always very much been.

[Lobo]

I understand that this is how it works in theory, but what about when the extravert is woman and the introvert is a man - which one prevails irl: gender roles, where the man pursues the woman, or socionics roles, where the extravert gets the ball rolling?


In my opinion it's best to let things happen as naturally as possible, without worrying over gender roles, socionics, etc. However, what seems to work best ime is letting the guy pursue, introvert or not. I am curious about others' thoughts and experiences w this....

Yeah, I think doing what feels right is the way to go... A guy that gets turned off by a girl pursuing him seems more of a control issue, "no, me caveman, now I bash you and drag you to cave." With introverts I think it works best to pursue and give space. Also, I wouldn't be happy in a relationship that is governed by what we are supposed to be doing based on our gender roles all the time, more so on the little things, like: the man always orders the food for the woman at the restaurant.

[silverchris9]

Yeah, I think doing what feels right is the way to go... A guy that gets turned off by a girl pursuing him seems more of a control issue, "no, me caveman, now I bash you and drag you to cave." With introverts I think it works best to pursue and give space. Also, I wouldn't be happy in a relationship that is governed by what we are supposed to be doing based on our gender roles all the time, more so on the little things, like: the man always orders the food for the woman at the restaurant.

Ewww, I've never seen a couple do that, not my parents or aunts/uncles or anybody. Surely any woman is more than capable of ordering food for herself...

[redbaron]

I'm often too shy to talk to wait-people, so I have no problems with people ordering my food for me.

that's cute!

[Creepy-male]

that's cute!

Isn't she just?

EDIT

Long story short, do not have two introverts attempting to order food from a cafe.

I: "I was waiting for you to order."
G: "I was waiting for you to order."
I: "I didn't know you were waiting for me to order!"

[redbaron]

Long story short, do not have two introverts attempting to order food from a cafe.

I: "I was waiting for you to order."
G: "I was waiting for you to order."
I: "I didn't know you were waiting for me to order!"

oh I have experienced this. Many many times.

[Slacker]

I don't know if I'd like it if someone ordered for me. I am not sure how I'd feel about that. I guess maybe if he asked me what I wanted and then ordered after that, it wouldn't bother me too much. Still, I'm capable of ordering, and anyway sometimes I have questions.

[jewels]

I don't know if I'd like it if someone ordered for me. I am not sure how I'd feel about that. I guess maybe if he asked me what I wanted and then ordered after that, it wouldn't bother me too much. Still, I'm capable of ordering, and anyway sometimes I have questions.

Yeah I agree. My favorite is when a guy is like "Do you like X?" And you're like "yeah." And then he's like "Then let's get the the X appetizers, and the blah blah blah." I think that's perfect.

But I would be annoyed if he was like "She's having the salad." Without asking me! lol

Sometimes a guy will ask me what I'm getting and then order it for me though, especially if it's kinda loud in there, or if it's a really nice place (I think it makes them feel important). Which I don't mind, because sometimes I forget the name of whatever I'm getting. (I've noticed ESTjs tend to do that).

A guy w/ manners who is good at ordering stuff though is the best!