ime, the gentlemen often are caretakers. Maybe it's partly Si.
IEI-Fe 4w3
duality roles would be better than gender roles... I don't really like gender roles... Roles make everything super complicated. Screw them all.
In my relationship I definitely did the initial pursuing. That is, I showed the initial interest and my boyfriend made more like suggestions. I.e. leaving open invitations to come by his house. Generally speaking, our relationship was pretty organic and didn't involve any dating per se, so that was never a problem. In our own ways we each take initiative with things. I'm usually the social organizer (loose term, I don't organize so much as get the ball rolling), getting us doing things like playing board games, dnd, etc. He tends to initiate more physical things, cuddling, eating, sleeping, harassing me to stop procrastinating (not so physical, lol) etc.
This. Reminds me. Of. New York. Oh my heavens. Until Steve got there it was a veritable gong show every time we went out to eat. We would walk around looking for a place and no one would want to make up their mind so I often kind of pointed at a place and said we were going there. For those that don't know the attendees for most of those times were ILI, ILI, SEI, LII, and me ILE. Jake was there sometimes too, but he's practically an IP
Yeah. I'm indecisive, but I also get antsy when nothing happens, lol.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
As an actual code, interestingly, it's actually rather amorphous. I found one thing on the internet, and its only mandate with respect to women was "Treat women with respect".
At any rate, no rules for you You'd have to pay a loooot of money to be trained in being the perfect gentleman. Now I just need to start getting to work on being a proper lady...
I've been pretty oblivious to gender roles throughout my life, short of gayness.. for either gender.. to me its just awkward in a way I can't deny. Other than that, I mostly ignore them. I actually get annoyed when a man holds a door for a woman. What is he doing that for? She can open it just fine. It's seems like a form of belittlement / domination..
Me too, sometimes. My favorite is when some guy who's carrying several heavy items holds the door open for me when I'm five feet back from the door and not carrying anything heavy. And then there are always the awkward moments when I'm not sure if the guy in front of me is going to hold the door open or not and then the pressure that if he does I'm expected to express some sort of gratitude and it all just makes me want to hide in a closet, basically. These things stress me out.
Edit: I don't really have a problem with it in general, so I guess it's not really that I find it annoying... it's more that social procedures stress me out and the door opening thing is one area where I can't avoid them. And I think this is why gender roles stress me out because they are also reflected as social procedures.
By the way, ironing is such a waste of time. Think about all the time spent on ironing that could be better used for cheating on financial markets!
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I dislike when I open a door for a man and he tries to make a grab for it and then we end up sidestepping each other awkwardly and I'm forced to go through the door first. It's humiliating. Because it was MY initiation, I was the one who instinctively rushed to get the door in a burst of goodwill, that door is MINE don't take it away from me. I also dislike it when a man rushes around a car to open the door for you, it ends up more often than not being awkward because I often move very quickly and suddenly, especially in those situations, in order to avoid being caught in close proximity to said man that is waiting to do something gentlemanly, so I've accidentally smacked people as I closed my eyes and made a dash somewhere in order to avoid touching them. Also going through doors that guys opened for me makes me feel somewhat like a female sugardaddy. Like I feel I have to acknowledge them and it's like "Weeheehee you opened a door. Great job once again!! Soon you'll be promoted to unrolling the carpet too!"
Wow people you think too much about doors...
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
To Chuck Norris, doors don't even exist.
Once, while having sex in a tractor-trailer, part of dolphins sperm escaped and got into the engine. We now know this truck as Optimus Prime.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not
I think alphas probably invented door holding.
I agree that it's best to let the guy pursue but is that what happens when the guy is a victim? The reason I ask is because I have been involved with 2 victims (dual and illusionary) and I guess they get the ball rolling in terms of making themselves available in my environment so I can act. I do this but they never, ever freakin initiate themselves. EVER. and even when I do initiate they seem to want even more freakin Se. Before you ask, yes I am pretty sure they did like me, their Ni tells me so, yet with that vision you would think they would do something about it yet they are ok with just leaving it all up to me (even when i try to make it clear that it's their turn do something, or it won't happen). Victims, what am i doing wrong here?!?!
yes, to some degree introverts/victim males need to learn initiating skills. and, extraverted females have to learn how to hold back and make guy come to her. sucks.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Makes total sense. I'm an Intp with an Enfp ex. There is a lot of mutual respect and...when the right conversation topics are brought up...mutual attraction (intuitive), but I see each of us as being better off because of our dual-seeking functions and romantic styles with our duals.
ILI female here.
SEE guys have Fi so high up on the list...and I've been thought of as "gay" or "masculine/wanting to be male" so much (neither of which is true), that I think the F/T line is likely to make homophobic or gender-stereotype-supporting people uncomfortable and excoriating...it's not just the E/I divide. I see a lot of males who are introverted, ISTP and ISTJ, who seem to be accepted as independent or not overly silly and who are contrasted with those 'talkative,emotional women.' They fit the stereotypes of the logical male, etc.
That said, I like to be an equal partner in my relationships, and I love that my dual's type seems to do the social networking/being playful things that I never do and need. I don't think of pursuit as asking the other person out.I think both parties can indicate their interest and interact prior to any dating.Showing interest and pursuing interaction is pursuit to me...ILI's don't always bother with ppl, you see, so an ILI being open and showing it and smiling and maintaining firm interest in a person and pursuing conversation is pursuit in my book, regardless of gender. I also like the extrovert firming up plans because it's more their forte to interact with the world. I've asked out men and been asked out. I sense respect as so inherent in love, that I can't conceive of a man really being in-sync with me and not treating me like an equal. Gender stereotypes can go off into la-la land.
My ILI male best friend is now in his first relationship at 25, and she initiated it. I think it can be a good thing in an NT's case because our social maturity doesn't progress at the rate of others'. She's an SF. He's beautiful now, athletic, well-educated, and socially aware.... I wish I'd waited as long as he did to get involved. The gender stereotypes of guys asking women out may have worked against me in my case. I didn't want to get serious with anyone until much later than when I did. As a Gamma I wanted to have a steady income to provide. (I am female. I know. But I am an ILI, and it's true of my female ILI relative, too.)
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
So many beautiful things to reply to in this thread!
Amen!
Can you have a dual and illusionary that are both victims? I think they'd be in different quadras. Anyway, like I say in another reply, to this ILI, initiation is not just "I'm going to be here later. I'd like if you showed up." Initiation can be a host of things. Of the men I love , there is an ENFP best friend-ex-boyfriend, but he seems programmed for more of a Caregiver. I have initiated, even the asking out kind of initiating.I'd say communicate. I'd also say re-shape your view of what initiation means. Thirdly, I suggest your dual instead of an illusionary.
i think the gender stereotypes represent a false distinction when we exist in a nicely functioning polychotomizable group already. The whole concept of duality is a hand-in-hand synergy already. Why bother with the synthetic rules when the natural works? I know we live in an already influenced culture, but we can still reach people with the natural give-and-take despite the norms we've imposed if we're gentle, imo.
My ex did this on my first date in high school! It was like: waiter approaches and asks about drinks. I had my mouth open and was about to order a root beer when the ESTX next to me orders 2 shirley temples (he thought it was romantic). I actually thought he ordered himself 2 drinks for a fraction of a second. Then, I was so dumbfounded...then internally outraged.
I think this has to do with the caretaker vs. infantile romance styles, not female & male sexes.
Yeah....I agree
My introversion/lack of Fe, "why are you forcing interaction? :frown:," Se desire to "do it myself," and my NT female angst at stereotypes ignoring people's capabilities and desires because they happened to be born with a different piss spout all contributed to my not being comfortable with the door thing. I also disliked it in myself when I used to expect to have males open the door for me.
I thought this was only me. I get looks from people like I'm rude and non-conformist. You've made me happy.
I think it's better to recognize the gender stereotypes putting pressure on our identities and encourage women to ask men out if they naturally want to.
VWhoops! Sorry, FDG. I should have said the Gamma Ni (time awareness) and Te (allocation of resources) have personally influenced me to want to make certain I have the dough to keep future family comfy. Oh, I just remembered: it was specifically an ILI description I was reading from the Russian that described this quality of providing.