Power, violence and socionics

[mikemex]

Current research about bullying points to a few important areas. Most importantly, the typical profile of a bully includes:

* Strong will.
* Low anxiety levels.
* Necessity for domination.
* Need for social significance.
* Little empathy toward their victims.
* Strong sense of hierarchy, combined with aristocratic righteousness.
* Little emotional control (i.e. quick to anger).
* Suspicious attitude (i.e. interpreting other's actions as deliberately malicious).

It is quite interesting to note that the concept of bullying itself is an analogy to the erotic attitude of an "aggressor". By itself, it is not really a malicious act, but the exercise of Se applied to an interpersonal relationship. This means, in a few words, that the bully perceives the situation as a (power) game more than anything else.

Everyone needs training when it comes about using their unique talents and bullies are not an exception. They are gifted with an acute perception of the relationship between cause and effect, which is the basis for power, and they are inclined to experiment with those around them.

Their acute sense of social "weight" and pragmatism makes them to choose the weakest possible victim, in order to minimize the danger of retaliation, which gives them an strategical advantage. The bully thus experiments with different strategies of domination. Physical violence is rarely used, as the bully well knows that violence is a public, punishable act. They also know that verbal and emotional violence are rarely punished, so they try subtler methods of domination such as induced social isolation by means of humiliation. This strategy exploits the human tendency to separate people into groups, "us and them". Since the victim belongs to a foreign group, one with undesirable characteristics, people tends to avoid any kind of identification with the victim, as it offers no benefit and a potential risk of rejection. Once the victim is isolated, this is, openly ignored and/or rejected, the risk about abusing the victim is drastically reduced, often approaching zero, thus leaving the door open for any hidden sadistic tendency among the members of the dominating group.

Here it is interesting to note that such strategies are also used in other events, such as lynching. It is well documented that victims are always in a strategical weak position: they are outnumbered, socially isolated by some reason and when murder occurs, they are unable to defend themselves, i.e. unarmed and/or tied.

I'll continue later.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

It sounds like you are describing an aspect of the Gamma quadra.

[FDG]

Bullying? I'd straight ahead go to torture and killing, much more fun and effective.

[1981slater]

Some Se types share those traits, although they are not so obvious in gamma Fi dominants IMO, in fact SEEs Fi can be quite charming.

[717495]

Isn't bullying like an ST thing, more extroverted, ESTx? I have a hard time imagining other types more like this. I can see some ENTxs being considerably degrading.

[1981slater]

Isn't bullying like an ST thing, more extroverted, ESTx? I have a hard time imagining other types more like this. I can see some ENTxs being considerably degrading.

I don't think delta STs harass people, since bullying is related to Se IMO.

Unhealthy NTs can surely be a pain in the ass

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Wrong.

Bullies actually have high anxiety, because bullies never bother people that are actually self-confident. They go after the weaklings. They won't ever fuck with people that could actually fuck with them back. So they are insecure pussies.

Little empathy, well yes.

Bullies don't have a strong sense of hierarchy. They tend to be pretty naive about our external social systems of power and how it's balanced IMO. Bullies inevitably get caught, unlike true sociopaths- because the weaklings eventually latch onto the guardians and protectors of society so the bullies get in trouble. If the bully can keep the person isolated, then yes- they can keep on bullying and using them as a punching bag. But that doesn't happen because most victims wise up and realize they have to do something about the problem, whether it's getting more friends or standing up to the bully themselves.

Also, violence is socially acceptable in MANY cases. If a truly sympathetic person finally stands up to a bully, then they will be socially rewarded. Because it's like FINALLY you had balls and gave that jerk what he deserved. Go you! There are limits to this of course but eh a lot of what you're saying just isn't true.

Also society doesn't tolerate bullies OR victims for very long. Only the truly gifted are able to ascend the strong/weak duality. Both are weird, 'socially off-putting' behaviors in society that everybody tries to correct.

[BlackCat]

B&D pretty much got it right. I don't feel the need to bully anyone... at all. Seems like a waste of time to me, and it's totally immoral. It really serves no purpose but to harm. And as Mimosa said above Se egos aren't bullies... God that's just adding to the retarded stereotyping that happens here constantly (like saying all LIIs are physically weak, lmao). How is bullying directly related to Se? The people that are agreeing it is aren't even giving any reasons.

Where did you get the information for your OP? That doesn't seem like the typical profile of a bully at all. B&D got that part correct.

Relating bullying to an Se ego is just silly. It seems to be more of a character trait than anything, a weak character's trait. A lot of the bullies that were in my school had bad home lives or bad social lives, or were just really really insecure. They had to make themselves appear stronger for some reason, they had to make others feel terrible. I don't know how this relates to Se.

I was bullied all through school. These weren't all Se egos, there were people of all types that did it.

This is like... a false correlation. And a highly offensive one at that.

[mikemex]

I didn't make this stuff up; I've simply observed it over time and reading about the topic confirms my observations:

Who bullies?

Students who engage in bullying behaviors seem to have need to feel powerful and in control. They appear to derive satisfaction from inflicting injury and suffering on others, seem to have little empathy for their victims, and often defend their actions by saying that their victims provoked them in some way.

Bullies often come from homes in which physical punishment is used, where striking out physically is a way to handle problems, and where parental involvement and warmth are frequently lacking.

Students who regularly display bullying behaviors are generally defiant or oppositional toward adults, antisocial, and apt to break school rules.

Bullies appear to have little anxiety and to possess strong self-esteem. There is little evidence to support the contention that bullies victimize others because they feel bad about themselves.

Chronic bullies seem to continue their behaviors into adulthood, negatively influencing their ability to develop and maintain positive relationships, and can experience legal or criminal troubles as adults.

Perhaps I understand bullies better than you do. My article is not finished by the way; my idea is to show how the same behavior shows itself at different scales of the society: from bullying at the school to the strategies used by predator politicians at global scale.

Also, I do not think the correlation is necessarily wrong. I don't imply aggressors are bullies; I'm simply saying that the act of bullying is an unhealthy manifestation of Se. And I'm not talking about simply being against someone, which I believe all conflictors would eventually do, but the organized, premeditated act of altering the victim's chances to retaliate by means of social isolation and/or emotional stress. Winning a strategical position at someone's expense; remember that bullies, in the end, have very little concern about their victims. They don't hate them, they simply use them.

Here is where I don't agree with you either: bullies are not unsocial, or lacking social skills. On the contrary, bullies are very well capable of putting themselves in a privileged social position, by means of gaining prestige. And whether you accept it or not, people often supports such behavior. If they didn't, how could it happen on plain sight?

I recommend you reading "The Story of the Bad Boy Who Didn't Come to Grief", by Mark Twain. The Story of the Bad Boy by Mark Twain

[717495]

Yeah I basically agree with Bullets. I haven't had much experience, but it wouldnt seem like a type related thing.

I don't understand why this stereotype exists because it doesn't really correlate into the system.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Perhaps I understand bullies better than you do.

Perhaps you don't.

I was only able to raise social ranks when I stopped being a bully or a victim and I instead spiritually transcended those dualities. And the reason why politicians are able to be socially dominant is not because of bullying, but actually the opposite - they've learned to be very empathetic to others in Skull and Bones rituals of degradation. People just avoid pampered, spoiled rich kids that grew up in politically-minded families or they think of them as 'silly'. They don't necessarily follow them.

Also, I do not think the correlation is necessarily wrong. I don't imply aggressors are bullies; I'm simply saying that the act of bullying is an unhealthy manifestation of Se.

Please stop it. Mikemex. Stop it. You have no idea what you're talking about. Just knock it off, please. For your own sake. You sound ridiculous.

Here is where I don't agree with you either: bullies are not unsocial, or lacking social skills. On the contrary, bullies are very well capable of putting themselves in a privileged social position, by means of gaining prestige. And whether you accept it or not, people often supports such behavior. If they didn't, how could it happen on plain sight?

Bullying is tolerated in pieces of shit organizations, but that's because nobody really knows what they're doing anyway, and so people are easily fooled. But in most places that actually are productive, bullying people is socially suicidal behavior.

I recommend you reading "The Story of the Bad Boy Who Didn't Come to Grief", by Mark Twain. The Story of the Bad Boy by Mark Twain

Your perspective that that story somehow defends what you are saying is pretty interesting to say the least, Mikemex.

[WVBRY]

I don't think delta STs harass people, since bullying is related to Se IMO.

Oh Yeah they do. The most common types among bullies is ESTp and ESTj. Bullying isnt related to Se that is just bullshit.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Bullies appear to have little anxiety and to possess strong self-esteem. There is little evidence to support the contention that bullies victimize others because they feel bad about themselves.

They don't feel BAD about themselves. They feel INSECURE with themselves. They are naive and don't really understand psychology or spiritual growth well at all. Because instead of facing what THEY'RE actually afraid of, they just make themselves the personified fear for everybody else. They play the role as a kind of Ghost or Psychological First Evil that can get victims to indirectly ascend, but don't do any work themselves soooo they are kinda just a nag. If they really were confident and brave with themselves, they'd face things that they actually were afraid of. Without fear, there could be no courage. Bullies just lack a fucking spine.

And don't say 'they're afraid of nothing!' or anything stupid like that.

Playful teasing is different than bullying though. Are you sure you're not talking about playfully teasing people?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Shut up bullets and doves and let the man speak.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Mikemex makes some sense to me, Bullets and Doves does not. Where does this leave us?

[Creepy-]

The propensity to bully is not type-related; it's weak character-related. The way a bully bullies another person is probaby type-related, but the act of bullying is not.

Someone w Se [or any other element] in their ego can use it just as easily for good as for evil.

[1981slater]

Mikemex makes some sense to me, Bullets and Doves does not. Where does this leave us?

Mikemex is...your dual? and rockets and crows is...mimosa's identical?

that's socionics!

[them]

ELAINE: Why do they call it a wedgie?
GEORGE: Because the underwear is pulled up from the back and ... it wedges in..
JERRY: They also have an atomic wedgie. Now the goal there is to actually get the waistband on top of the head. Very rare.
ELAINE: Boys are sick.
JERRY: Well what do girls do ?
ELAINE: We just tease someone until they develop an eating disorder.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

What exactly in the things Mikemex writes make sense to you? I am not sure I have understood what his point is at all. He isn't exactly crystal clear... I see that he talks about what makes bullies bullies, and I think he's wrong (B&D understands better, imo). Second of all, it seems he accuses Socionics aggressors of being bullies, of lacking empathy and of attacking the "weakest" in society. These are horrifying stereotypes, and I hope I'm wrong in thinking this is what he says. Please clarify if I have misunderstood. If not, please don't support him, as it only shows your lack of understanding of Se.

On the contrary, as I already said, I think he describes Gamma quite well, more specific, gamma Se quite well.. At least in terms of the gamma SF's. In short, it's displaying the characteristics of Fi understanding inter-personal relationships and maneuvering them from a gamma Se perspective to extracite the person so that they are excluded, have no friends, and therefore easy targets. I suppose this removes threats so that primarily the ENTj can aquire *things* better. This self-serving attitude can even be put under the guise of being moral, such is the nature of gamma Fi with Se when you consider it being in tow with Gamma Fi.

I suspect mikemex's wrong to give it a whole Se label. But I see it re above, hence why "some" of what he says makes sense to me.

So that's pretty much what I see. Can't really comment on bullets and doves in so much detail as I think he's taking the matter a bit too personally and talking from a more so uneducated stance, but maybe he does understand things better than what mikemex may be trying to say, but, can't think of how else to phrase it re b&d, sorry.

But those are my views on it.

[BlackCat]

On the contrary, as I already said, I think he describes Gamma quite well, more specific, gamma Se quite well.. At least in terms of the gamma SF's. In short, it's displaying the characteristics of Fi understanding inter-personal relationships and maneuvering them from a gamma Se perspective to extracite the person so that they are excluded, have no friends, and therefore easy targets. I suppose this removes threats so that primarily the ENTj can aquire *things* better. This self-serving attitude can even be put under the guise of being moral, such is the nature of gamma Fi with Se when you consider it being in tow with Gamma Fi.

Wow. Okay. Wow...

Any asshole can exclude someone... anyone can do this. W.T.F. Which gamma SF type pissed in your corn flakes? How is being able to exclude someone a specific personality's trait?

I think that what songsofsappho said is very good-

The propensity to bully is not type-related; it's weak character-related. The way a bully bullies another person is probaby type-related, but the act of bullying is not.

Someone w Se [or any other element] in their ego can use it just as easily for good as for evil.

Anyone can do these assholish things, but it would probably vary depending on type. Anyone can use any function for good or evil.

I'm still not seeing any proof for this besides "LULZ ITS SE THEY R BULLIES!" and with no reasoning, proof, anything. It's just a malicious opinion.

It's ironic that the Se valuers are defending this and saying it's bullshit, while the Ne valuers are basically attacking it. You're getting it straight from the source here. We are Se valuers, you aren't. How can your judgment be more accurate?

God this is such ignorance. This is like racism. Se users are just different, you're attaching something terrible to a process just to be able to point the finger at something.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I grow tired of superficially politically correct people like Blackcat who can't see the practical way in which socionics works, nor give any credence to the socionics logics behind this reasoning. Except instead to reduce it to meaning that a gamma has "pissed in my corn flakes"

Perhaps you should consider that this behaviour does not make someone an asshole, instead it is you who's presuming this behaviour makes someone an asshole, in turn, turning it into a slanging match before any discussion can even take place.

Meh, I take a break from this place for a while.

[Creepy-]

Wow. Okay. Wow...

Any asshole can exclude someone... anyone can do this. W.T.F. Which gamma SF type pissed in your corn flakes? How is being able to exclude someone a specific personality's trait?

I did. Most of his rambling in this thread about gamma Se is directed at me, as bait. It's to be ignored.

I think that what songsofsappho said is very good-

Thanks

As for the rest of your post: +100000.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Before I sign off, it's not directed at you. What is it with you ethical types? Get over yourself!

[BlackCat]

I grow tired of superficially politically correct people like Blackcat who can't see the practical way in which socionics works, nor give any credence to the socionics logics behind this reasoning. Except instead to reduce it to meaning that a gamma has "pissed in my corn flakes"

The socionics logics behind this is bullshit. This isn't even logic. It's twisting and turning a theory in the wrong way, getting something pretty much false out of it. That isn't practical. How am I superficially politically correct? I know as a fact that not all Se users are bullies, that Se doesn't relate to bullying, and I also know that it doesn't relate to socionics. I just have common sense.

Perhaps you should consider that this behaviour does not make someone an asshole, instead it is you who's presuming this behaviour makes someone an asshole, in turn, turning it into a slanging match before any discussion can even take place.

Off topic. The point is to get the message. Excluding someone? Making them appear weak? Verbally abusing them? How is this NOT assholish behavior? Plus that point is off topic and irrelevant... and I don't even understand what is getting accomplished by doing this or pointing out the word usage.

Stop trolling.

This is one of the issues I have with typology in general, people take it too far and associate people's character traits with personality traits.

Again there is no proof... and there never will be. Since this is unrelated to typology.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Good God. Just because you say it's nonesense does not make it's nonesense. Explain Fi and Gamma Se, and if you do it correctly, you'll reach the same conclusion as me.

To support this, Expat, who is a gamma, has said that Gamma is the only quadra which experiences personal revenge as a motive. You should consider how this agrees with Gamma and bullying, and also how it fits into Gamma functions.

[Mea]

i've seen non gammas portray behaviours like these.

in my opinion, gammas are not bullies, because i'm gamma, and we get along.

i think it's just quadra perceptions of other quadras. in my experience, alphas are the worst bullies, ESE & ILE. though i will NOT conclude nor categorize alphas as bullies. that's really retarded.

o. and i don't relate to mikemex's post at all, though i can see the reason why other quadras may view gammas as bullies.
however, his post makes some sense. that bullying is an unhealthy manifestation of Se, which does not only have to come from gammas or people with strong Se, but could also come from types with weak Se.

w/e really

[Mea]

First, I sympathize with saying something that is a socionics based observation and people getting pissy about it. He was just making an observation, folks. People talk shit about my type all the time and it never has bothered me personally since it's not talking about 'me' persay.

Personal revenge or personal reasons (ie. to protect someone) is a pretty gamma reason to be confrontational and initiate some form of combat. But I doubt just gammas do that but it's a good archetypal example of what gamma motivations are like.

And to me, yeah, I've seen SEEs bully people if they don't like them or if they have done something to them or to someone important to them. They can be incredibly stupid about it, too, and I feel like I have to tell them that they are just going to make things worse.

But from MY vantage point, I perceive SLE bullying as being very discomforting as what I have witnessed, they know how to say things that will get under your skin and anything you say (at least if you try to use Fi to reason) only is used against you (whether you are breaking their defenses or not, they persist, IME). LSEs, though, IME, have been just redundant and fail at getting under my skin (by trying to analyze me and failing completely where SLEs can be pretty spot on which is why it hurts acutely), but they have a method that feels like they are just using a big hammer to wack the same spot over and over again to where it hurts and it's aggravating as hell (resulting me in more of less saying "Put the fucking hammer down or I'll break your fucking face you moron!").

And yeah, those are charicatures derived from experience from how certain types tend to act when they take the role of being a bully/asstard. Every type has their own general methods, obviously, but no type is exempt from being a bully and I think most people have been a bully at some time (though I admit I've done so mostly as self-defense from people who insist on being pricks and I found early in life that if you don't defend yourself, no one will be there to protect you, so that's why.).

agree with those. i've seen SEEs bully people, but not me, it's the ESEs and ILEs that do. so i still think it's a quadra thing, i think people tend to bully people they understand less, who are different from them. thus i agree, any type can be a bully.

and i totally agree with your last line, that's why i chose to not work for someone else. bosses/superiors can be such ass holes. it's especially bad in asia, you voice your opinion, and you get fired.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Hell, I'm a good-natured liberal pansy IEI and *I've* bullied people before.

It's fun and you get a good rush. However, it didn't stop the fact that I was bullying because I was insecure about a lot of things in my real life that I wasn't dealing with. When I dealt with them, I really saw no reason to bully, I wanted to help others.

That's just the way humans work. When you are really connected with people, you tend to have a lot of compassion.

I really want to just be able to, I don't know- simmer some of you down about all this, cause to me, a lot of you are getting worked up over nothing. There is no proof that Se relates to bullying, because it just doesn't. I'm sorry if you are getting personally offended over that statement, but it's just the truth.

If it makes you feel any better, you can tell me now how much I Suck, how much I Need To Get A Life, you can attack the messenger.

You are making Betas (and Gammas too really) be defensive. You are a Delta, mikemex. You don't really know much about the opposing functions. You need to be in a position to learn the functions you don't value, and not teach. If a Beta started a thread attacking Si, I'm sure you'd be quick to point out the errors of their ways?

This whole thread just fails and will just further descend into an arguement.

[electric sheep]

You make excuses for SLEs and bullies in a way that only an IEI could, b&d.

[FDG]

On the contrary, as I already said, I think he describes Gamma quite well, more specific, gamma Se quite well.. At least in terms of the gamma SF's. In short, it's displaying the characteristics of Fi understanding inter-personal relationships and maneuvering them from a gamma Se perspective to extracite the person so that they are excluded, have no friends, and therefore easy targets. I suppose this removes threats so that primarily the ENTj can aquire *things* better. This self-serving attitude can even be put under the guise of being moral, such is the nature of gamma Fi with Se when you consider it being in tow with Gamma Fi.

I suspect mikemex's wrong to give it a whole Se label. But I see it re above, hence why "some" of what he says makes sense to me.

So that's pretty much what I see. Can't really comment on bullets and doves in so much detail as I think he's taking the matter a bit too personally and talking from a more so uneducated stance, but maybe he does understand things better than what mikemex may be trying to say, but, can't think of how else to phrase it re b&d, sorry.

But those are my views on it.

Mmmm...have you ever met an ISFj? They're quite shy and anxious, especially when they don't know you that well. I'd say I'm much more likely to be a bully than any ISFj, they're more likely to be overanxious about stepping on other people's toes.

Anyway, as far as my experience goes, ESTx types tend to be the majority of bullies. There's no easy functional reason that explains why it has to be so, except the combination of extraversion, negativism, and ST. Which is not enough to settle such a delicate matter.

[electric sheep]

Confessions of a Bully

I didn't bully those who were weaker than me. I bullied the people who thought that they were better than me.

It sounds like something I would do. I'm sure there's a more intelligent way to go about the bullying issue rather than putting all the blame on ESTx's.

[07490]

Hell, I'm a good-natured liberal pansy IEI and *I've* bullied people before.

It's fun and you get a good rush. However, it didn't stop the fact that I was bullying because I was insecure about a lot of things in my real life that I wasn't dealing with. When I dealt with them, I really saw no reason to bully, I wanted to help others.

That's just the way humans work. When you are really connected with people, you tend to have a lot of compassion.

I really want to just be able to, I don't know- simmer some of you down about all this, cause to me, a lot of you are getting worked up over nothing. There is no proof that Se relates to bullying, because it just doesn't. I'm sorry if you are getting personally offended over that statement, but it's just the truth.

If it makes you feel any better, you can tell me now how much I Suck, how much I Need To Get A Life, you can attack the messenger.

You are making Betas (and Gammas too really) be defensive. You are a Delta, mikemex. You don't really know much about the opposing functions. You need to be in a position to learn the functions you don't value, and not teach. If a Beta started a thread attacking Si, I'm sure you'd be quick to point out the errors of their ways?

This whole thread just fails and will just further descend into an arguement.

I really don't understand this part, When I'm stress out with things I have in my life the only sources is to fix it, not to bully others to make myself feels better, unless the people had a bully tendency then I feel compel to get back at them, I don't know, I never want to hurt somebody that I know is smaller than me or not as tough as me and that I know they are good person at heart. The more assholeish they are (any types) the more I feel compel to get back at them, especially those who picks on the weak, there is this uncanny disgust feeling when people want to dominate other people just for the sake of yes, I can do it to you becuase you are weaker, and that when they are face with a bigger dog, they suck up to them. I do think most people who are gifted with power dynamic used their power for good although this is never always 100%. People who are insecure, those are the one to watch out for and their need to be in control.

[Rocket]

You make excuses for SLEs and bullies in a way that only an IEI could, b&d.

How true .... Mimosa + b&d tend to lose the plot on issues of this nature.....All else being equal a strong case can be made that an -Base with -PoLR is more fertile ground than any other combination for a propensity to bully. When other avenues for achievement or recognition are not available SLEs can turn on others (esp. inferiors) simply on the basis of a need to have the impact of their actions felt and to assert their superiority.... clear cases of bullying..... and i see it with SLEs more than any other type.

That aside most bullying probably is not type related. As described earlier its a reaction of the weak (or neurotic) against someone who is vulnerable to them for whatever reason. There are other examples that can be explained in socionics terms also. For instance in relations of supervision, the supervisee can often get to the point where he/she experiences the supervisor as a bully - In these cases someone with an -Base can be a bully just as easy as someone with an -Base.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Maybe in the case of an EII, any "bullying" is more likely to be seen by others as weak pestering or moralising. But then it could be argued that itnroverts are less likely to be bullies because you'd generally expect them to have less energy than extroverts, and that they'd spend less time with people also, giving them less time to "bully"! But then again, if a recognise introvert bullies every single time that they are in the presence of others, then they would surely come across as a bully also.

You have to define what bullying is first - of course there is a common generally accepted view of what it is, but then maybe there are actually sixteen different varieties, including ones that would not generally be considered "bullying" in common parlance.

I think that mikemex's list of traits in his post is so generic it could apply to all of the types, with substatiation. For example "Necessity for domination" - well, sure, domination usually applies to the strictly physical realm...but please do expand on what is meant here. These traits are also going to be biased by the partial observer!

[FDG]

We could open a competition thread, where everybody has to bully everybody else, and the type of the person who wins is declared as the King of Bullies.

[Mea]

We could open a competition thread, where everybody has to bully everybody else, and the type of the person who wins is declared as the King of Bullies.

sounds great!
so who's the judge?

[mikemex]

Well, I prefer not to personalize discussions as they tend to become battles more than useful interchange of ideas. But I must say that trying to reason with Fe egos (beta NFs in particular) is often difficult, as they try to rationalize things that start as emotions. Something may or may not be true, but if they don't like it, they will never accept it. It's a matter of avoiding the discomfort (emotion) that causes being aware of something unpleasant.

Well, returning to our topic, I must state that I'm not talking about any quadra or type in particular. What I'm trying to describe is the correlation of a behavior with an specific function, in this case, Se. Now, it is important to clarify that I'm not looking at this through the moral lens. I'm simply describing the strategical moves that happen under the skin of an abusive person. Such actions are deliberate and complex.

I know I'm IEE. Having weak Ti means a difficulty stating things in a closed, self contained fashion. Maybe this is why I don't convey my ideas in a "perfectly clear" manner. However, I'm not going to suddenly become proficient at it, so I'll do my best to clarify what I'm trying to say.

In essence, everyone uses all the functions of socionics. From this perspective, everyone can become abusive. However, your proficiency at a given skill often determines the time you spend at it. For example, if you like drawing, but you do poorly at it, it is unlikely that you'll pick a career as a painter. In the same way, if you have abusive tendencies, but you're not very skilled at strategical thinking, you'll soon face the consequences of messing with others, end eventually give up at it. In the contrary, if you are abusive and happen to be good at hiding it, or setting other people in positions where they find it difficult to retaliate, it is likely that you'll repeat the pattern. This is the origin of my claim that repeated, "professional" abuse of others IS related to having proficiency in Se, simply because Se gives you the ability to spot and use the "strings" that handle things.

For example, if I want you to do something, I can order it to you, but then I have no real way to MAKE you do it. So, in the end, it's up to you to do ir or not. A Se type, however, rarely leaves such open ended choices. They are skilled at spotting the cause-effect relationships between things ("strings") and are likely to try to gain a position of power in order to have the means to force you do something. For example, they may strive to become the human resources manager of a company, so in the case you don't get in line, they can force you to do something by means of conditioning your salary, or even throwing you away.

This is the kind of thinking I mean when I talk about bullies. They might not be academic geniuses, but they are certainly astute. They perform strategic moves in their heads with the purpose of altering the relationships of power between individuals.

[electric sheep]

ok, I think I understand. You're not trying to say "only Se types are bullies" you are explaining how Se is used to bully people, be it by an Se type or any other.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Sounds to me that mikemex is saying that Se types are more likely to bully, but that bullying should be seen as a skill! I'm not sure I'd word it like that - the word "bullying" is negatively loaded, while a skill isn't (or at least doesn't tend to be). If bullying is necessary, it shouldn't be called bullying.

But don't mind me! I'm just going to commit a few necessary murders!

[mikemex]

Sounds to me that mikemex is saying that Se types are more likely to bully, but that bullying should be seen as a skill!

A misuse of an skill.