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Thread: Ideas, beliefs, and reality checks for INFjs and ENFps

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    Default Ideas, beliefs, and reality checks for INFjs and ENFps

    Is it common for you guys to get reality checks, like believing that something is a certain way, only to be caught off guard later on at some point? I mean especially when it comes to knowing how you stand with someone else. For example, you might believe that a person can be trusted with something, only to be surprised when they act in a way that says otherwise. Or, you believe that you and someone else are closer than what you really are, and then a bomb gets dropped, and it's supposed to be "obvious" but for some reason you just couldn't see it... I've gotten better at keeping a distance to observe, but I keep falling for external actions as my way of determining how things are. I don't like to have to think about ulterior motives, or things that are just not apparent at a given time. I guess because of this I've gotten better at dealing with this kind of disappointment, and recognizing things that even though look a certain way, from experience they're not. I think it's also a matter of assuming things too much as well.

    There's also something that I find strange, which is that whenever there is a situation where I'm assuming something is not like it really is, I always have a gut feeling that something's not right, but I just can't pinpoint what... So I ask myself if I should follow the gut feeling, even though it doesn't make much sense at the moment, or try to figure it out in a concrete way, which is what I always end up doing. I consider myself to be pretty good at knowing when something is "off," but rather bad at knowing what it is.

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    Sereno, Sereno, this is exactly what's going through my mind right now.

    In my situation I have a feeling that the other person wants to be closer to me than I am comfortable with. We are already established as friends and I want to remain at that distance. But lately something does not seem quite right and I plan to talk to him about it. And, as you said, it's all the gut telling me this. It's also difficult to ignore this feeling.

    Sometimes, though, my reality checks also entails the realization of not being right about something. That is, I initially do what I feel is right but, after thinking about it some more or even almost at random, reality hits, and it turns out things aren't as certain as I previously thought.
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    I rarely if ever put expectations on people and thats how I go about with my life. I depend on myself and I prefer it that way. I am prone to idolise my loved ones but if I am disappointed its not due to what I expect from them, but rather for something I did not expect from them and that happens rarely.
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    I can't say this happens to me too often with relationships, but every where else. Anything that has mundane details to upkeep on, I assume for the most part things will work out, and then all of a sudden whatever situation pops up that I should have saw coming. I typically have an inkling of everything going on in my social life, I'm almost never out of the know, unless people have been deliberately hiding things from me. Even then, I can tell, but it tends to be lost in the realms of possibilities that I keep in my mind but don't dwell on. I think I'm less resolute in that sense than FiNe, and I have many possibilities in mind that I always am tentative until I find out for sure what the situation is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I can't say this happens to me too often with relationships, but every where else. Anything that has mundane details to upkeep on, I assume for the most part things will work out, and then all of a sudden whatever situation pops up that I should have saw coming. I typically have an inkling of everything going on in my social life, I'm almost never out of the know, unless people have been deliberately hiding things from me. Even then, I can tell, but it tends to be lost in the realms of possibilities that I keep in my mind but don't dwell on. I think I'm less resolute in that sense than FiNe, and I have many possibilities in mind that I always am tentative until I find out for sure what the situation is.
    I hate mundane details . Actually, the possibilities thing you mention is something I do as well. It frustrates me when people on one hand consider you negative because you think of negative possibilities, and then on the other, you're called naive because you just should have thought about that negative outcome before... That's why I just want to know the truth and a lot of info, instead of having to think about everything that can happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    I rarely if ever put expectations on people and thats how I go about with my life. I depend on myself and I prefer it that way. I am prone to idolise my loved ones but if I am disappointed its not due to what I expect from them, but rather for something I did not expect from them and that happens rarely.
    I find it hard not to expect certain things from people, namely respect, honoring a commitment, honestly, and so on. In a way, for me to not expect these things is like looking down on someone, which just might just be a subjective point of view. However, with experience and time I'm able to watch out for warning signs that let me know something is up, before it actually happens. Sometimes it just doesn't happen, and I can't help but feel surprised, especially when I let my guard down. Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger . It's logical for me to not expect things from people, but I find it hard for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Sereno, Sereno, this is exactly what's going through my mind right now.

    In my situation I have a feeling that the other person wants to be closer to me than I am comfortable with. We are already established as friends and I want to remain at that distance. But lately something does not seem quite right and I plan to talk to him about it. And, as you said, it's all the gut telling me this. It's also difficult to ignore this feeling.

    Sometimes, though, my reality checks also entails the realization of not being right about something. That is, I initially do what I feel is right but, after thinking about it some more or even almost at random, reality hits, and it turns out things aren't as certain as I previously thought.
    From my experience, like 100% of the time I have a bad feeling about something, there's definitely something that's off. Trust your gut, that's why it's there. Instincts. But of course, you need closure of knowing what you felt was wrong. I had a similar situation with a girl once. Just prepare what you will say if the guy asks you for something more than friends .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    Is it common for you guys to get reality checks, like believing that something is a certain way, only to be caught off guard later on at some point? I mean especially when it comes to knowing how you stand with someone else. For example, you might believe that a person can be trusted with something, only to be surprised when they act in a way that says otherwise. Or, you believe that you and someone else are closer than what you really are, and then a bomb gets dropped, and it's supposed to be "obvious" but for some reason you just couldn't see it... I've gotten better at keeping a distance to observe, but I keep falling for external actions as my way of determining how things are. I don't like to have to think about ulterior motives, or things that are just not apparent at a given time. I guess because of this I've gotten better at dealing with this kind of disappointment, and recognizing things that even though look a certain way, from experience they're not. I think it's also a matter of assuming things too much as well.

    There's also something that I find strange, which is that whenever there is a situation where I'm assuming something is not like it really is, I always have a gut feeling that something's not right, but I just can't pinpoint what... So I ask myself if I should follow the gut feeling, even though it doesn't make much sense at the moment, or try to figure it out in a concrete way, which is what I always end up doing. I consider myself to be pretty good at knowing when something is "off," but rather bad at knowing what it is.
    Often those feelings are subtle, and if I over-think them I can get in trouble. It's like little blinker lights that indicate direction or under-the-surface stuff. I dunno. Hard to describe.

    Sometimes I ignore those feelings because "reason" says otherwise, or because I want too much for it not to be. So my understanding can get clouded that way.

    Then again, I can sometimes get the feelings wrong, or misinterpret them, because I don't have enough info. I'm not very observant in general, and though a lot of clues seep in unconsciously, enough to give me often accurate feelings, sometimes I just plain miss important details or events that would reshape my understanding of what's going on if I incorporated them into the picture.

    For example, sometimes a friend will start dating someone and it will take me by surprise because I just haven't been noticing the clues pointing in that direction. When I take a closer look, usually it all makes sense (relational, not necessarily logical, sense) in retrospect, but I nonetheless totally missed seeing it coming, mainly because I totally failed in picking up on the available clues.

    As for knowing how I stand with people, and how they'll treat me, I usually know how they feel but there are times, particularly in the business world, that I get surprised. And that sort of vague feeling that something isn't right applies to me, too, though often I tend to ignore it, hoping I'm wrong or that I can make it go away by continuing to be nice and friendly. And, like you Sereno, it's hard to pinpoint what exactly is wrong.

    In fact, it's hard to pinpoint or articulate a lot of what I sense that way. I mean, some things are obvious, like "he likes her" or "she respects so-and-so, and is a little afraid, too", but there are other things that are there but much harder to define or even describe unless you see it happen and can point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Sereno, Sereno, this is exactly what's going through my mind right now.

    In my situation I have a feeling that the other person wants to be closer to me than I am comfortable with. We are already established as friends and I want to remain at that distance. But lately something does not seem quite right and I plan to talk to him about it. And, as you said, it's all the gut telling me this. It's also difficult to ignore this feeling.

    Sometimes, though, my reality checks also entails the realization of not being right about something. That is, I initially do what I feel is right but, after thinking about it some more or even almost at random, reality hits, and it turns out things aren't as certain as I previously thought.
    Yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    It frustrates me when people on one hand consider you negative because you think of negative possibilities, and then on the other, you're called naive because you just should have thought about that negative outcome before... That's why I just want to know the truth and a lot of info, instead of having to think about everything that can happen.
    I can relate to this. In many respects, I crave certainty. I can sense the connections and directions of things and all the millions of possibilities, but it's comforting when the connection is explicit and steady, so I don't have to keep track of it and redefine it all the time, and it's refreshing when I can zero in on three or four possibilities instead of millions. Or, better yet, it's nice when I know all I need to know in order to act, that way I can play with variety at my leisure without having to figure out which possibility is actually the likeliest, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    I find it hard not to expect certain things from people, namely respect, honoring a commitment, honestly, and so on. In a way, for me to not expect these things is like looking down on someone, which just might just be a subjective point of view. However, with experience and time I'm able to watch out for warning signs that let me know something is up, before it actually happens. Sometimes it just doesn't happen, and I can't help but feel surprised, especially when I let my guard down. Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger . It's logical for me to not expect things from people, but I find it hard for some reason.
    I find it natural to go into situations and relationships expecting things to just go well and for people to be nice and kindly and good. It's kind of like that's the way it should be, so that's my default. Of course, once my trust is really broken, once that connection has been seriously damaged between us, the same thing happens but in opposite - where I find myself expecting and trying to avoid bad, even if it might not be there. Although, heh, even then my natural tendency of expecting (or wanting?) good will take over occasionally, making my caution erratic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    From my experience, like 100% of the time I have a bad feeling about something, there's definitely something that's off. Trust your gut, that's why it's there. Instincts. But of course, you need closure of knowing what you felt was wrong.
    I think sometimes it's that need for closure, for knowing what was really going on, that can lead me to over-analyze and miss even more or get it wrong or misinterpret. Which actually just makes things more confusing. And makes the reality checks all that more important, as well as startling and unbalancing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    I rarely if ever put expectations on people and thats how I go about with my life. I depend on myself and I prefer it that way. I am prone to idolise my loved ones but if I am disappointed its not due to what I expect from them, but rather for something I did not expect from them and that happens rarely.
    I agree with this. I don't give much away so it's hard to be let down by someone. Sometimes my hopes were higher than reality but I know that in the back of my mind. So it's not a feeling of being let down or disappointed.

    I never expect anything of anyone. I give what I can to the people I love and try not to hold them to fulfilling any expectations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I can't say this happens to me too often with relationships, but every where else. Anything that has mundane details to upkeep on, I assume for the most part things will work out, and then all of a sudden whatever situation pops up that I should have saw coming. I typically have an inkling of everything going on in my social life, I'm almost never out of the know, unless people have been deliberately hiding things from me. Even then, I can tell, but it tends to be lost in the realms of possibilities that I keep in my mind but don't dwell on. I think I'm less resolute in that sense than FiNe, and I have many possibilities in mind that I always am tentative until I find out for sure what the situation is.
    This is spot on!

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    I guess the answer to my question is like an EII/IEE divider. Wouldn't it be open to potential abuse to not expect things from people? Let me see if I can explain what I mean...

    The way I go about any sort of relationship, be it friendship, is that I have certain requirements that need to be met, which I consider to be "understood" already. As a friend, I expect someone not to act a certain way, otherwise, it makes it hard for me to consider that person as a friend. I put a lot of importance in how I'm treated. If I were to list all of the problems I've had with friends, they would all come down to this. I'm very easy going and I joke around all the time, but when I'm treated in a way that I don't expect to be treated, it turns me off. This definitely puts a strain sometimes in the "go with the flow"/"let it go" factor of a relationship.

    On the other hand there are some people I've known who don't expect things, and are of the "I'll take what I can get" mentality, that sometimes end up abused without them being aware of it, and seem to not really care about it. Of course, what I consider potentially disrespectful might just be "ok" with someone else. (I do have high standards ). For example, I had a friend tell me that "if I write to someone asking for help and they don't get back to me, I'm ok with it because I can't expect them to leave what their doing to write back." I see the honorable factor in thinking this way, but it just doesn't compute for me that if a friend asks for genuine help they do not respond.

    What kills me about having friends that don't expect much in general is that regardless of how much I might bust my ass to obtain a kind of "friendship promotion," to somehow earn a better place, it just goes unnoticed, and seems like they don't care. It's like "it's the same to me," and they'll treat you the same way as before, no special treatment whatsoever. I can't help but get pissed off at this, and just go on ignore mode . I'm an ambitious guy, I can't help it.

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    General commentary so far:
    (it may not be directly related to the thread, but inspired by it)
    (it includes some realism and critique, so be warned)


    What's lovely about Fi dominants is that when they are really into 'you' (or me), then they stay that way. That is really nice and rewarding and comforting.

    But I think they don't realize how impractical it is to apply Fi as a way of thinking to areas outside of relationships... and even then, being aware of your tendencies interpersonally. It seems like EIIs tend to be either too positive or too negative in their feelings of some people (or Fi dominants in general), particularly if things are not really settled yet, or there are fluctuations. It's like trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters... it's just not really functional.

    Fi people are very .... uneasy in situations like that, where things arne't crystal clear, and I get that. But you have to just deal with it sometimes... and not get too depressed because a lot of bad stuff happened, or too optimistic because no one has ever 'done you wrong before' , in your eyes.

    For EIIs in particularly, I really like the idea of getting to know people and having really solid relationships with them that do stay the same way. That's comforting for me, too. But you do have to deal with reality at times in that things aren't always going to be that way, however unpleasant it might be. I think EIIs have trouble realizing when to not let their expectations damage their mood or feelings about other people -- yes, they may know something is wrong or not right, but they aren't aware of what it is, or how to deal with it themselves, in an active, volitional way.

    They aren't really very good at showing ambition or implementing changes. In fact, you guys seem prone to just watching things happen and sometimes just lamenting about things, or getting depressed, or even just commenting on how bad things are going and showing little real ability or know-how in changing things.

    Particularly if EIIs think something is going bad, sometimes they just seem to complain about it and passive aggressively let it continue being bad, almost so that they can have a sense of rightness or blamelessness. This may be a subconscious mechanism, or simply their own firm belief that they cannot really do anything to actually change the situation, other than express discontent with it. Really, it's just a general lack of assertiveness. It's sort of an illusionary justification that if the EII doesn't get involved or try to be assertive, then it can safely just sit there and wait for things to happen on their own. (ETA The nice side of this is that an EII is really happy and positively receptive when EII thinks things are going well; it's a general sense of trust in their understanding of the overall direction things are going in. It's fabulous when things are going well in actuality and also in the EII's understanding. But big upsets happen when the EII believes something is working a certain way but in reality it is not).

    This (before ETA, 'unassertive') isn't really out of character for an EII, but it is an unhealthy possibility to be wary about. That sort of action is not going to help or benefit relationships, it's just going to protect the EII and their own ego. It's where EIIs can improve and develop their gumption, assertiveness, and willpower.

    If EIIs are lucky they're be around people who don't put them in those situations.

    I don't expect EIIs to exert themselves in terms of relationship development, really; I sort of like that I'm in charge of that stuff, the forward energy, as their dual. But sometimes this passivity seems to both stagnate or thwart any room for progress; and it also can lead to a sort of delusional attitude towards things - particularly avoiding or just rejecting things the don't want to feel or deal with, or that fit into their moral framework of how things are supposed to be. So in such situations, it seems that EIIs either dwell on their own thoughts and feelings or need someone, with an opinion that they trust, to explain to them what to do . If the EII things you are currently untrustworthy or incredible, then your influence over them is minimalized, even if what you say is correct or would be beneficial (I say some of these things as tips for people dealing with EIIs).

    Finally, I think EIIs are relatively poor at understanding how the instantaneous actions and events affect things. They tend to just refer to their general big picture view of the direction things are going in. But when they try to discern the here and now, it's back to that analogy: trying to measure millimeters with a meterstick. I suggest they refer to other trusted people to get input on those things, preferably unidealistic ST types... even if only so as to balance out their own tendencies.

    This is the case when it comes to flirting or any other sort of direct action. Many times EIIs I know say things like "well I don't know how it happened but all of a sudden... (he kissed me), (he asked me for my phone number) (whatever)". You guys seem clueless in terms of how your actions (or inactions) actually lead people on or deter people. And then even if you're told what they imply, there is a tendency to not want to believe it... either because of some moral reasoning, or some perceived "I don't know" feeling, or that same passive nature of feeling like you actually don't have any say in being assertive -- that the assertiveness of the other person is solely what dictates things. This is also somewhat unrealistic and it gets EIIs into trouble at times.

    ...EIIs need friends to help them understand stuff like this, imo. Some consequences to not having friends to point out this stuff seem to be things like: a general numbness or ambivalence to relationships (E9s, especially); or a retreat into some sort of protective barrier or framework or ideology (E1s, especially).


    That said, I go back to the start, and I say that it sure is nice when an Fi dominant has a particularly good opinion of you. Te dominant people really crave that, it gives us the sense of balance, an anchor, a home base, something to depend on. But in the context of EIIs in particularly (I think ESIs are different as they can tell, in S/Se terms, more instantaneously what's happening... somewhat), I suppose I'd just be cautious about the interpretation of and dealing with the more instantaneous events. From a caretaker standpoint, it definitely makes you guys seem vulnerable.
    Last edited by UDP; 06-25-2009 at 07:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    I put a lot of importance in how I'm treated. If I were to list all of the problems I've had with friends, they would all come down to this. I'm very easy going and I joke around all the time, but when I'm treated in a way that I don't expect to be treated, it turns me off. This definitely puts a strain sometimes in the "go with the flow"/"let it go" factor of a relationship.

    On the other hand there are some people I've known who don't expect things, and are of the "I'll take what I can get" mentality, that sometimes end up abused without them being aware of it, and seem to not really care about it. Of course, what I consider potentially disrespectful might just be "ok" with someone else. (I do have high standards ). For example, I had a friend tell me that "if I write to someone asking for help and they don't get back to me, I'm ok with it because I can't expect them to leave what their doing to write back." I see the honorable factor in thinking this way, but it just doesn't compute for me that if a friend asks for genuine help they do not respond
    This is definately the post of an EII. My EII friend has said exactly the same things to me in the past. I also expect quite a lot from people. Especially from people who are in the fringes of being my friend or not. It seems like my core group of friends barely ever annoy me or make a huge mistake. They have over time, reached the highest eschelon of people i care about and i love them and forgive them all unconditionally. I am not sure if i picked a great group of people, or if i taught them exactly how to deal with me. I think its probablly a little bit of both.

    Ive moved out recently and there are a new group of people im friends with. I admit they actually all piss me off quite a lot. The ESTj is too rude and always forgets to invite me out, the INFj always calls me "bitch" which is highly annoying to me, and the ISTp is just not quite there emotionally with the things he says in conversation and also in his actions. So i will not deny i do have high expectations. I hide them fairly well but they annoy me.

    Still, i do not expect anyone to help me. I take full responsibility for my life. I am also very aware of jumping to conclusions. I am back in my home town, and a day or so ago an INFj friend smsed me out of the blue. I replied back and also said that i am back in town and that we should catch up and i told him the days which i am free. I haven't heard from him for 3 days now and i wont end up seeing him. I know what hes thinking. He is angry that i didn't tell him i was back. This is somewhat unfounded as i was probablly going to sms him that very same day (honest!!). Still, because i know him and whats probablly going through his mind i am not that angry that he hasn't replied to me lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    But I think they don't realize how impractical it is to apply Fi as a way of thinking to areas outside of relationships... and even then, being aware of your tendencies interpersonally. It seems like EIIs tend to be either too positive or too negative in their feelings of some people (or Fi dominants in general), particularly if things are not really settled yet, or there are fluctuations. It's like trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters... it's just not really functional.
    I don't understand what you mean. The first part I see true for any person, in that they try to apply their way of thinking to everything. The second parts sounds subjective, so I don't know what to make of it. Ironically, it seems like an Fi argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Fi people are very .... uneasy in situations like that, where things arne't crystal clear, and I get that. But you have to just deal with it sometimes... and not get too depressed because a lot of bad stuff happened, or too optimistic because no one has ever 'done you wrong before' , in your eyes.
    It's true that for me I get uneasy when things aren't crystal clear. Obviously, things won't always be crystal clear. In general though, what good is it to say "you just deal with it sometimes"? or "don't get too depressed or optimistic"? I'd rather know some kind of action to take in order to not do it, rather than just being told something that, quite frankly, is kind of obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    For EIIs in particularly, I really like the idea of getting to know people and having really solid relationships with them that do stay the same way. That's comforting for me, too. But you do have to deal with reality at times in that things aren't always going to be that way, however unpleasant it might be. I think EIIs have trouble realizing when to not let their expectations damage their mood or feelings about other people -- yes, they may know something is wrong or not right, but they aren't aware of what it is, or how to deal with it themselves, in an active, volitional way.
    Some things need to be taught, otherwise you just wing it with whatever internal resources you might have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    They aren't really very good at showing ambition or implementing changes. In fact, you guys seem prone to just watching things happen and sometimes just lamenting about things, or getting depressed, or even just commenting on how bad things are going and showing little real ability or know-how in changing things.
    Humans do this in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I don't expect EIIs to exert themselves in terms of relationship development, really; I sort of like that I'm in charge of that stuff, the forward energy, as their dual. But sometimes this passivity seems to both stagnate or thwart any room for progress
    Hmmm. At least in my case, this seems way off. But actually, I can see that happening if the other person sort of takes charge of that position more frequently. I see this dynamic of back and forth happening with an SLI friend of mine. For example, if I make contact frequently, he steps back, and vice-versa. But really, if you are constantly providing the forward energy all of the time, then you're just developing complacency. Without knowing it you're bringing that upon yourself. If someone cleans your house, fixes the yard, makes your food, gives you money, and does this all the time and you get used to it, can you really expect them to just do these things out of the blue?

    Something I'm not sure about what you are writing here is that for one you seem to know that EII's are consistent in their feelings towards you, and yet you are saying that the passivity doesn't allow for progress and relationship development. I suspect that you are talking about the initial part of a relationship when you "get the ball rolling." But even then, if I'm interested enough, I will do it. If someone is too forward though, I'll let them do it.

    I'll get back to the other things later and meatburger's post. Right now I'm tired. But really, I think the issue in all of this is a problem with attachment. Learning how to detach myself from things/people/situations, and being confident in letting things happen naturally.

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    Something I'm not sure about what you are writing here is that for one you seem to know that EII's are consistent in their feelings towards you, and yet you are saying that the passivity doesn't allow for progress and relationship development.
    The passivity that I described (which I spoke upon in a negative way) is a sort of "unhealthy" situation, or where Fi+Ne (and Se polr) can be a problem. It's more a general commentary on the pros and cons of EII nature.

    I suspect that you are talking about the initial part of a relationship when you "get the ball rolling." But even then, if I'm interested enough, I will do it. If someone is too forward though, I'll let them do it.
    Sure.
    And for what it's worth, people like Ritella are very 'forward' for EIIs, and engaging. And the guys are also that way, more so.


    I'll get back to the other things later and meatburger's post. Right now I'm tired. But really, I think the issue in all of this is a problem with attachment. Learning how to detach myself from things/people/situations, and being confident in letting things happen naturally.
    I can see that being a substantial part of things.
    Last edited by UDP; 06-26-2009 at 12:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    I don't understand what you mean. The first part I see true for any person, in that they try to apply their way of thinking to everything. The second parts sounds subjective, so I don't know what to make of it. Ironically, it seems like an Fi argument.
    The whole nature of my post is commenting on what's happening. What I mean there is that how some EIIs interpret things is like "trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters", that is, their mechanism for understanding things like that are slow and clunky, like a huge galleon in the ocean trying to turn around. This is even much more so if it is directed AT the EII in particular - I think they are slightly better at dealing with it, outside of themselves. I'm not sure if that helps you any, as I'm not sure what you don't understand about it/what I said there.



    I'm not sure if this will help or not, but here's what I said to Minde, concerning my post...
    minde: I might reply to your post
    minde: there are some things that I... don't quite completely agree with
    R: I'm not surprised
    R: It's the type of post that I don't think people will react well too, really.
    R: "based on past results", you could say.
    minde: what do you expect people to react badly to?
    R: Because of the way I say things.
    R: And the overall "negative' nature of my post
    R: it seems to strike a certain chord of "well things really aren't that way and here's why"
    minde: did you read Sereno's response?
    R: Just now
    R: His response is fine
    R: what I'm addressing are some very mechanical things.
    R: A lot of what I spoke about there are things that I would see as somewhat unpalatable to EIIs
    minde: why do you think that would be?
    R: I think it is much easier for an EII to explain how it's not quite right that things happen that way
    R: rather than
    R: looking at flaws in the mechanics of what's going on.
    R: Why would that be?
    R: because it puts responsibility on them that they don't like, for one thing.
    R: Or that it's addressed in a way that is unappealing.
    R: it's too 'harsh'.
    R: Sereno ended up by saying that he thinks it's related to attachment
    R: and yes, that is kind of what's happening
    R: but
    R: I'm explaining the nature of the 'attachment feeling'
    R: and doing it in a way that doesn't sound particularly how Fi sees itself, imo.
    R: It's a post that goes against the grain.
    minde: was that intentional on your part?
    R: My intention was to present things in as uncontrived a manner as possible. So while I wasn't trying to unnerve EIIs, or you, --- nor was I being bitey or upset or bitter
    R: I wasn't trying to make you happy or feel good about how you operate, either.
    R: I was calling it straight.
    R: what I actually saw going on in various situations.
    R: And especially because I commented on a lot of 'negative aspects', it's more likely to be unappealing.
    R: But I am not interested in being appealing to you or other EIIs, nor am I trying to create annoyance.
    R: I could do the same thing for how "I" or "LSEs" may approach something, and I could also find it unnerving because what I would say goes against the nature of what I'm really trying to do and how I view myself and my intentions.
    R: but it would nonetheless be one take on things.
    R: do you think if I posted our aim conversation, it would help people understand what i wrote more so?
    ...
    R: why [does it bother you?]
    minde: perhaps it's because it's like you're trying to change things that don't really need to be changed, either because it's fine the way it its or because it doesn't exist in the first place
    R: Not at all
    R: I'm not trying to change anything
    R: I said that I appreciate EIIs being how they are
    R: just that sometimes
    R: what they do is somewhat ineffective.
    R: I don't seek to change anything.
    minde: then why are you bringing it up?
    minde: or complaining about it?
    R: The point was commenting on and giving a raw look at what is happening, not me suggesting what people should do to 'correct the problem'. I give advice on how to deal with it, (having other people to give input), but I don't see it as something 'to be corrected'
    R: bringing what up?
    [19:20] luineminde: any of it
    R: as I said:
    R: General commentary so far:
    (it may not be directly related to the thread, but inspired by it)
    (it includes some realism and critique, so be warned)

    minde: "realism" heh
    R: I wanted to give a sort of
    R: 'what's really happening' kind of take.
    R: And a lot of what I said were negative aspects.
    minde: As Sereno said, a lot of what you're saying is subjective
    R: How would you talk about it objectively?
    minde: I'm not sure it's possible to be truly objective
    R: I don't see my subjectivity as a problem in what I'm trying to do here.
    ... I'm not trying to be truly objective or ascribe something that all EIIs should do or not do. It's more a collection of experiences I've had with various EIIs over the years and some of what is actually going on in those situations. As I said, a lot of what I wrote is commenting about some 'negative things'. It is not a wholey objective or all inclusive description of how EIIs work, and that was never my intention. Hopefully that lends to some understanding of what I wrote.
    Last edited by UDP; 06-26-2009 at 12:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    It seems like my core group of friends barely ever annoy me or make a huge mistake. They have over time, reached the highest eschelon of people i care about and i love them and forgive them all unconditionally. I am not sure if i picked a great group of people, or if i taught them exactly how to deal with me. I think its probablly a little bit of both.
    That's one of the nice things about developing long-term friendships - all the kinks are already worked out leaving basically smoothly flowing interactions.
    Last edited by Minde; 06-26-2009 at 03:28 AM. Reason: editing out pointless reply
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Hm, and I suppose that if we were doing things right, we'd have a perfect understanding of and expectations toward relationships that are beginning and/or in flux? That seems a bit unreasonable.
    Yes, obviously it's unreasonable to expect someone to have perfect understandings and accurate expectations. .... why you are feeling like that's what I want or I'm proposing, I wonder.


    Here's an instance where you are trying to change something. But, anyway, yes, people have to deal with what happens. It's just that different people deal with it differently...
    I'm offering advice on how to deal with it better. If I wanted to 'change' something I'd do more than write a post on a forum about it.

    As a matter of fact, if I'm in a situation where I care what happens and I see that something is wrong and/or needs to be fixed/changed/done, I'm perfectly capable of initiating and accomplishing what needs doing.
    So you interpreted what I said as you/EIIs are incompetent?

    It's true that if someone else is comfortable and able to take initiative and get the ball rolling, that I'm usually just fine with letting them. If you want to do all the work, more power to you. But other times things need a kick-start and I find myself doing that. For example, today I was helping a group from my church do an activity/craft for a local school's free lunch program. There was a lack of organization, so there was a period where people were sort of just standing around, not sure what to do. We were running out of time, so I basically started telling everyone what to do, to get things going. I felt kind of weird ordering the pastor about, but I knew what needed to be done so I did it.
    Do you suppose this blows my mind and is something I've never considered an EII as being able to do before?

    To be particularly specific, I wasn't talking about things in a work setting. I don't suppose EIIs are unable to implement any change that way. I was specifically talking about relationships and how they develop, and how EIIs act in them.

    So, in my view, to say that EIIs are not good at or incapable of implementing changes is somewhat an inaccurate view.
    So you believe that I think "EIIs are not good or incapable of implementing changes"? I don't.

    Although, at the same time, is that really their "job" in the socion, to implement change?
    I was never talking about EIIs' jobs in the socion.

    As for ambition, that's more often associated with Ni/Se, so of course we won't value it and I don't see why I should.
    Whatever you're addressing here is not something I was talking about in my post.

    Basically, you're asking for something that is not innate to an INFj. That, especially willpower, sounds a lot like Se. Is a spirited, initiative-taking, forceful EII really an EII? Not being a complete pushover or sitting around doing absolutely nothing is one thing, but it's another to take on those qualities as a norm.
    I'm not really sure what you're talking about here - you've interpreted my comments about EIIs as applying universally to various situations?


    I think to ignore the big picture is blind oneself. As for "instantaneous actions and events" and "the here and now", that sounds suspiciously like extroverted sensing...
    It might make sense then that an EII is not good at understanding such things...


    I would agree that's a good thing to be able to do (sometimes I want to control outcomes too much), but doesn't that seem the opposite of what UDP/Ryu is wanting?
    I have no idea what you think I'm wanting.



    That's one of the nice things about developing long-term friendships - all the kinks are already worked out leaving basically smoothly flowing interactions.
    Yeah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    This is the case when it comes to flirting or any other sort of direct action. Many times EIIs I know say things like "well I don't know how it happened but all of a sudden... (he kissed me), (he asked me for my phone number) (whatever)". You guys seem clueless in terms of how your actions (or inactions) actually lead people on or deter people. And then even if you're told what they imply, there is a tendency to not want to believe it... either because of some moral reasoning, or some perceived "I don't know" feeling, or that same passive nature of feeling like you actually don't have any say in being assertive -- that the assertiveness of the other person is solely what dictates things. This is also somewhat unrealistic and it gets EIIs into trouble at times.

    This part in particular stood out to me... It makes me think that you have been hurt by an EII, which is the actual motivation for your post. I might be wrong, but that's the message I'm getting. Though I don't like talking about PoLRs much, this would be an example of a good hit. But the very interesting thing about this one, is that you're showing how having an Se PoLR can actually affect an Fi matter of acquiring a connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    ...EIIs need friends to help them understand stuff like this, imo. Some consequences to not having friends to point out this stuff seem to be things like: a general numbness or ambivalence to relationships (E9s, especially); or a retreat into some sort of protective barrier or framework or ideology (E1s, especially).
    YAY!! Protective barriers vary though. I can go from a picket fence to the Great Wall of China. It depends on the circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Still, i do not expect anyone to help me. I take full responsibility for my life. I am also very aware of jumping to conclusions. I am back in my home town, and a day or so ago an INFj friend smsed me out of the blue. I replied back and also said that i am back in town and that we should catch up and i told him the days which i am free. I haven't heard from him for 3 days now and i wont end up seeing him. I know what hes thinking. He is angry that i didn't tell him i was back. This is somewhat unfounded as i was probablly going to sms him that very same day (honest!!). Still, because i know him and whats probablly going through his mind i am not that angry that he hasn't replied to me lol.
    Try asking him if that's the reason why he hasn't gotten back to you. I bet you will get some kind of response.

    ...bitch. j/k. Sorry, I just had to. But yeah, it sucks having friends like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    The whole nature of my post is commenting on what's happening. What I mean there is that how some EIIs interpret things is like "trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters", that is, their mechanism for understanding things like that are slow and clunky, like a huge galleon in the ocean trying to turn around. This is even much more so if it is directed AT the EII in particular - I think they are slightly better at dealing with it, outside of themselves. I'm not sure if that helps you any, as I'm not sure what you don't understand about it/what I said there.

    I'm not sure if this will help or not, but here's what I said to Minde, concerning my post...

    ... I'm not trying to be truly objective or ascribe something that all EIIs should do or not do. It's more a collection of experiences I've had with various EIIs over the years and some of what is actually going on in those situations. As I said, a lot of what I wrote is commenting about some 'negative things'. It is not a wholey objective or all inclusive description of how EIIs work, and that was never my intention. Hopefully that lends to some understanding of what I wrote.
    I'm sorry Ryu but I don't get the meter stick analogy. I know that it refers to applying some kind of broad brush to things and not knowing the nuances. At least, I think that's what you mean. But I'm still not sure about how that applies to EII in particular. It would be great if you had a specific example.

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    Sereno, this is an interesting topic. I've had that happen, as far as being suprised by someone. I think very often, I do make assumptions about people and assume they are more similar to me than not (I think everyone does this). Then, if they do something offensive or whatever, it really does surprise me. I sorta update my idea of our Fi relationship based on that, which can be very sad/dissapointing for me.

    For instance, I met this ISFj who seemed very dedicated, moral, kind, etc. Then I noticed her saying some pretty mean things about people very close to her. It really bothered me, as these were important people in her life and she was saying very insulting things, like she didn't respect them. And then I saw some other actions of her's that were very selfish to the detriment of other people around her (some of these same friends she was close to). I was suprised in a bad way, as I thought she was nicer/more giving than she really was. She ended up being rather calculating and selfish, in that she'd put her needs above those of other people.

    I've had other friends w/ similar situations, where maybe I started out thinking they were so good, kind, open-minded, whatever...and then I'll see them backstabbing, stealing, being selfish, etc. And that really changes how I see them.

    I think you can only go on the information you have and make a conculsion based on that. So yeah, I am frequently "updating" that Fi info. And I do get surprised often, both negatively and positively. Sometimes the "jerks" do really, really nice things and I then start to change my idea of them and our relationship. I'm constantly forming these opinions and adding more info. Then it gets sort of a sum total and that is my current Fi-status in my mind. I prefer that status to stay the same, but when these "surprises" happen, it forces me to re-evaluate.

    And I do have expectations for people. If they aren't kind, giving, and more or less equal in terms of giving/taking, then I'll find a way to end that relationship. I feel like expecting nothing of people would be sorta an easy way out to stop looking for fulfilling relationships. I may not "assume" someone will act a certain way, or do me a favor or wahtever, but I do have expectations about what kind of person I think they are, and what I expect our relationship will be. If that doesn't play out, then I seriously re-access and may end it, or reduce it to more of an aquaintance type thing. The "with friends like that, who needs enemies?" phrase comes to mind...
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    This part in particular stood out to me... It makes me think that you have been hurt by an EII, which is the actual motivation for your post. I might be wrong, but that's the message I'm getting.
    I've been in some disappointing situations relating to EIIs, sure. But that's not the motivation for the post - the motivation was to present things in a raw fashion. As I said before, I expected it to be somewhat unappealing...

    Though I don't like talking about PoLRs much, this would be an example of a good hit. But the very interesting thing about this one, is that you're showing how having an Se PoLR can actually affect an Fi matter of acquiring a connection.
    Yes.
    That is why I said I didn't expect it to go over well or be appealing.
    This also comes in in NeFis, too.


    YAY!! Protective barriers vary though. I can go from a picket fence to the Great Wall of China. It depends on the circumstance.
    I don't understand what you mean here, or how much sarcasm there is.


    I'm sorry Ryu but I don't get the meter stick analogy. I know that it refers to applying some kind of broad brush to things and not knowing the nuances. At least, I think that's what you mean. But I'm still not sure about how that applies to EII in particular. It would be great if you had a specific example.
    You're essentially right.
    It's putting a general faith in their longer term understanding of things, whatever it may be, and not knowing how to or poorly interpreting what is actually going on at the moment. The long term understanding can get in the way of, or distort, the interpretation of what's happening. I'm not really saying anything profound.

    For example, if an EII has a particularly negative point of view of somebody (and the person is actually being a good person now), then they may actually distort actions to reflect that, which are happening at the present. They may automatically assume, because of past experiences, that the motivations and intentions of someone are the same as in the past. And in doing so, they may condemn someone preemptively, by relying on their long term understanding/vision of the person, they trust their own intuition over what's happening. I say "long term" which smacks of time/temporal things, but it's related to being static - and expecting things to be static, expecting constancy.

    This isn't 'good' or 'bad', just something I've noticed. It's what they are strong in - ethics and intuition- so it's what they trust. It makes sense, in terms of socionics.

    On the other hand, if an EII has a particularly positive point of view, and the person is actually doing bad things, the EII can have a solid 'grace period' where, because they trust their intuition and vision of the person, they keep assuming the best even though what's happening in reality doesn't match up with that. But again, as with everything, I think the more aware, and the more healthy, and the more mature the EII, the less this problem develops. Nevertheless, each type has certain weaknesses or typical things they don't deal very well with. The dual pair makes sense in tihs way - an ST would be able to balance out the NF well. Particularly in this case, a dynamic ST to balance the static NF.

    It takes a while for EIIs to change their long term visions, or in some cases to even develop them. Various EIIs deal with this in different ways. Some are very reclusive and wait for a lot of data before making a grand vision about someone's ethics; some are very hopeful of people in general; some are more cynical; etc. And sometimes, EIIs personal feelings affect things, even if they don't admit it. Liking someone, being attracted to them, or conversely, disagreeing with someone or disliking certain things about them also impact this long term intuitive visions of somebody.


    The meter stick analogy has to do with, imo, somewhat faulty interpretations of immediate, present moment, individual events. The reliance on intuition and long term (static) views can produce a clumsy analysis. I've seen this in various formats, in terms of EIIs getting hurt, or EIIs unintentionally leading other people on, or EIIs damaging relationships when there was actually not a threat, or even EIIs having hopes that are entirely unreasonable for someone, one way or the other. I'm not saying that EIIs are "wrong", or this is bad, I'm simply discussing a tendency that I've seen in EIIs - and highlighting the negative aspects of the tendency. I've not gone into the positive aspects very much.

    It's understandable that EIIs may develop a cautious nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Yes.
    That is why I said I didn't expect it to go over well or be appealing.
    This also comes in in NeFis, too.
    Ryu, it doesn't matter if it's unappealing as long as it's your perception. I like reading about possible behaviors of mine that might have gone unnoticed in my daily happenings, and I find it an interesting read. There are some things you have said that don't apply in my case, so I just consider what is applicable and that's it. I know that you probably don't want people to dislike you because of what you're saying, but if they take it personally then it's their fault (though sometimes the delivery is as important than the actual thing said). The only thing that I don't like is if someone presents information as a way to belittle or for other reasons that are not informative and useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I don't understand what you mean here, or how much sarcasm there is.
    It wasn't sarcastic, just a bad joke. I'm just saying that I'm able to build up personal barriers, that's all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    You're essentially right.
    It's putting a general faith in their longer term understanding of things, whatever it may be, and not knowing how to or poorly interpreting what is actually going on at the moment. The long term understanding can get in the way of, or distort, the interpretation of what's happening. I'm not really saying anything profound.

    For example, if an EII has a particularly negative point of view of somebody (and the person is actually being a good person now), then they may actually distort actions to reflect that, which are happening at the present. They may automatically assume, because of past experiences, that the motivations and intentions of someone are the same as in the past. And in doing so, they may condemn someone preemptively, by relying on their long term understanding/vision of the person, they trust their own intuition over what's happening. I say "long term" which smacks of time/temporal things, but it's related to being static - and expecting things to be static, expecting constancy.

    This isn't 'good' or 'bad', just something I've noticed. It's what they are strong in - ethics and intuition- so it's what they trust. It makes sense, in terms of socionics.

    On the other hand, if an EII has a particularly positive point of view, and the person is actually doing bad things, the EII can have a solid 'grace period' where, because they trust their intuition and vision of the person, they keep assuming the best even though what's happening in reality doesn't match up with that. But again, as with everything, I think the more aware, and the more healthy, and the more mature the EII, the less this problem develops. Nevertheless, each type has certain weaknesses or typical things they don't deal very well with. The dual pair makes sense in tihs way - an ST would be able to balance out the NF well. Particularly in this case, a dynamic ST to balance the static NF.

    It takes a while for EIIs to change their long term visions, or in some cases to even develop them. Various EIIs deal with this in different ways. Some are very reclusive and wait for a lot of data before making a grand vision about someone's ethics; some are very hopeful of people in general; some are more cynical; etc. And sometimes, EIIs personal feelings affect things, even if they don't admit it. Liking someone, being attracted to them, or conversely, disagreeing with someone or disliking certain things about them also impact this long term intuitive visions of somebody.


    The meter stick analogy has to do with, imo, somewhat faulty interpretations of immediate, present moment, individual events. The reliance on intuition and long term (static) views can produce a clumsy analysis. I've seen this in various formats, in terms of EIIs getting hurt, or EIIs unintentionally leading other people on, or EIIs damaging relationships when there was actually not a threat, or even EIIs having hopes that are entirely unreasonable for someone, one way or the other. I'm not saying that EIIs are "wrong", or this is bad, I'm simply discussing a tendency that I've seen in EIIs - and highlighting the negative aspects of the tendency. I've not gone into the positive aspects very much.

    It's understandable that EIIs may develop a cautious nature.
    This is very interesting, and I don't have much to say about it. I'm not really in the "present" at times. I do believe that with a long term mentality you can enjoy some of the things in the present more, but sometimes the opposite happens. It really frustrates me when some people don't realize when some periods won't last forever, and it just goes by them without really making the most of it. I'm very aware of time in that sense. It's like I know how special a moment is, as cheesy as it sounds.

    It's not so much in thinking about the long term as necessarily years from now, but always thinking one step forward, even if it is what will happen the next day. I don't like making huge long term plans, like where I want to be 10 years from now. In that sense I prefer taking things step by step, and gradually moving forward towards a direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    You Ne + Fi write a damn lot. Although I'm interested, I'm not patient enough to read all.

    Envelopes coming from your types rarely fit in the mailbox.
    haha. Hey, I've posted half as many posts as you.

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