Is subtype "learned behavior" ??

[JuJu]

(happy Father's Day!! I love you Dad.)

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Lately I've noticed a trend... Which leads me to ask this question:

Do you think that subtype is a "learned behavior," i.e. developed through familial/close interactions/quadra atmosphere..?

I'll use my family as an example to illustrate the hypothesis, b/c it's representative of what I've noticed in several other families:

My family is Beta/Gamma. 4 betas, 1 gamma.

Mom = Se-ESTp
Dad = Se-ISFj
Older Bro = Ti-ESTp
me = Ni-ENFj
Younger Bro = Ni-INFp



How this plays out:

My Dad's been a banker since before I was born. He works with almost all Gammas... I've noticed that the ppl he hires are almost uniformly Gammas... I've been brought up primarily in this Gamma 'banking world.' E.g. the events my family attends, the ppl who visit with us, etc.

My father's always placed a high value on--and praised me for--Ni, (his hidden agenda,) but devalued Fe to the point of discouraging it... (My Mom, on the other hand, loves Fe and encourages it.)

Thus the atmosphere in which I grew up was conflicted with regard to how to respond to Fe--sometimes it rewarded expression of it (Mom sometimes it didn't (Dad and his banking friends, who were a big part of how i formed my values.)

What I'm wondering is --your opinion: did these familial/environmental factors make my Ni subtype as strong as it is..?

Or do you suppose that subtype is native, i.e. I was born with it..? If not, what do you think contributed to this strong Ni subtype..?
(I'm hypothesizing that one is born with a distinct Sociotype, but subtype--I'm not sure.)

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Perhaps needless to remind you, this question is much broader than the specific case, b/c it speaks to how subtype is 'made.' That's what I'm interested in... Not a debate about other bs.

[Gilly]

My family:

Mom - LSE-Si
Dad - EII-Fi
Sister - SEI-Fe
Me - EIE-Ni

So, in my case, not really, at least not for the same reasons...however my best friends growing up were predominantly Ni/Se quadra types, so perhaps there's something there.

[ArchonAlarion]

Dad - Si ISTp
Mom - Fe ESFj
Me - Ti ENTp
Sister - Fe INFp


I think people are born with a temperament (energy level, stability, static vs dynamic) and quadra elements and then grow into a subtype.

Another possibility is that people are born with a quadra, and grow into a temperament based on early childhood experiences/family needs. Then they later grow into a subtype.

Or maybe You start with temperament and sub temperament (Ji Ep, Xe Ij, Xe Ej, etc.) and then grow into a quadra.

[Mattie]

I think you're on to something, but my interpretation is this, backwards: I think what is "learned behavior," or basically environmental influences, is misinterpreted into subtype. In my opinion, I don't think the popular subtype hypothesis covers enough to really be satisfactory in showing all these different influences. I do like the way you set up your question, but let's say, for argument's sake, that your family was the only influence for this "learned behavior." If your father, the only Gamma, was Delta instead, how would you predict his subtype from this? Sorry if I'm approaching this a little scatter-brained, but I have been thinking about subtypes a lot lately.

I do think that we have an innate type and it is influenced by our environment (family, friends, school, work, etc), and this is what makes us all different instead of 16 actual personalities.

[ArchonAlarion]

ah well I approach sub types based on model x so that particular argument doesn't really affect me, Sky...

But I don't want to get my posts moved =\

[Mattie]

ah well I approach sub types based on model x so that particular argument doesn't really affect me, Sky...

But I don't want to get my posts moved =\

My post was directly to JuJu's, I was going to ask about your response because it seems like a different approach. If you're interested enough you can PM it to me, I'm just curious over all because subtypes are kinda irksome to me.

[JuJu]

This is good stuff... Keep the replies coming about your families, and if you think they helped you to develop a subtype...

Gilly, sky, archon -- what do you think made you develop subtypes..? Or do you think you were born w one?

[ArchonAlarion]

Ever since I remember I've been mainly interested with dividing things up categorically, redefining things for increased exactitude, connecting and applying one system to another... I remember in elementary school being like the only kid who cared about politics. I had an intellectual head start.

I think I was always Ti ENTp. And I've always been Ep too.

If I did develop them post birth then its from a time I cannot recall.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Mattie]

This is good stuff... Keep the replies coming about your families, and if you think they helped you to develop a subtype...

Gilly, sky, archon -- what do you think made you develop subtypes..? Or do you think you were born w one?

I'm not really one for subtypes, so I haven't applied a subtype to myself nor other people. I'm also not sure about if you're born with your type or whatever, or when it develops... Though, I think I was probably NeFi ever since I was cognitive. Here are some influences I've noticed, though, that would contribute to this "environmental influences" affecting type:

My best friend of 11 years is NeTi. For the most part, our relationship resides in the area and seeking, but we do clash and every so often. In order for our relationship to function and grow, I HAVE to be more tolerant to , and she has to with . Neither of us will ever excel at it and don't exactly react naturally when using these IEs, but it's for the better of our friendship. So now, maybe at first, people might see me as valuing because it's possible I am more tolerant to it than the average NeFi, but it doesn't last very long.

Because of certain situations in my life, I haven't really dated that much or don't feel that the opportunity comes around a lot. I find that I am less likely to have the stereotypical NeFi flakiness, and actually am rather annoyed by others' flakiness. I feel like that whole non-committal aspect of NeFi doesn't really apply to me, but I think it comes from my life-experiences, because I don't feel opportunities come around often, there for I'm more patient and and thorough when dealing with commitments.

These, among other variables (maturity, whether I have it or not, for one) make me different from the mainstream NeFi, or at least, the midpoint profile of all whom are NeFi, I think are what is interpreted into subtype. I believe there needs to be either more subtypes, or none at all.

[717495]

I honestly don't think it's very family related. I think it's based on ones personal experience, or it is even just a personal experience defined by ones type and subtype. I've always been very into designing structures of thought and making up equations and fantastical ideas that have little relation to reality, but that is because it is a reflection of reality. Producing functions are mirrors of reality. You can easily tell I have been Ne subtype from that start, from old home movies, my speech doesn't really relate to anything that is going on at the moment or is seemingly difficult to connect with anything justifiable. I've always been like this, though now that I've been maturing I get more responses like "I've never thought about it that way," "I'll see what happens," or people with Ti or Ne would add on to the substance of my thought. It's hard to see such a person like me be balanced from the start and then be worked into my subtype. Maybe for you it's different.

[717495]

I'll have this piece of music explain the rest of my thought on this topic:

[JuJu]

I'll have this piece of music explain the rest of my thought on this topic:

song's money

You make a good case that ppl are their Sociotype+subtype from the jump... To be honest, as far back as I can remember, I've been this way (Ni-EIE) too...

[Jarno]

I find it odd to consider subtype as nurture while type is nature.

But here's my list:

Dad: LSI-Se
Mom: ESI-Fi
Me: ILI-Te

[Mattie]

The topic isn't totally about family, or your family member's types. It has to do with the types of life experiences you have, or, how you've reacted to the types of people around you. While I feel like I have a grasp on my personality, I doubt you have the same personality now as you did when you were a child. Children's personalities are a lot more basic, you're missing a huge part of your mindset before puberty. But, either way, I don't argue for the subtyping system we do now. I think we do fall within some sort of spectrum or such, but what is used widely doesn't seem right to me.

[JuJu]

I think we do fall within some sort of spectrum or such, but what is used widely doesn't seem right to me.

I agree with you here--and also about having changed since puberty. (In retrospect though, it's remarkable how little my 'basic' personality has changed.)

As to the point above: I agree with you. The subtype system is not "right" per se, and there's a spectrum.

The current system divides the spectrum into two halves... Describes the extremes of those halves, and essentially asks one to pick. (Like you say, this system ignores a whole host of other possibilities--caused by potentially innumerable factors--in-between.)

You're right, I believe... One could get much more specific as to one's subtype if one's inclined.

Ppl who are very knowledgeable about themselves and Socionics could go very far into investigating subtypes/personalities; however, for most ppl, I imagine that knowing only one's own type (nevermind which half of that type's subtype spectrum) will be satisfactory.

This is all to say: you're right. The current subtype system asks one to pick between extremes within a type. The truth often lies somewhere in the middle, which makes the current subtype system problematic... That said, for some of us, the subtype system goes quite a ways to explaining, e.g. how Hugh Hefner (Fe-EIE) and I can both be EIE, and yet our personalities come across so differently.

[Mattie]

This is all to say: you're right. The current subtype system asks one to pick between extremes within a type. The truth often lies somewhere in the middle, which makes the current subtype system problematic... That said, for some of us, the subtype system goes quite a ways to explaining, e.g. how Hugh Hefner (Fe-EIE) and I can both be EIE, and yet our personalities come across so differently.

Thanks, every once in a while I like to think I can put my thoughts together well My suggestion is to think of expanding subtypes! Heehee But that's a bit too experimental for most people. I'd want subtypes to be less of an "excuse." Like, why do we need subtypes for you and Hugh Hefner to rationalize you both being FeNi? So, if these subtypes were not available, would you both still be FeNi, or another type? This is what I find a little off-putting.

I pose this question to those who uses the current hypothesis for subtypes: If subtypes didn't exist, would all the people you have typed still be the same base type? Shouldn't a prerequisite of being a subtype be that you're certain of their base type first? I wonder what you'd learn if you looked back and removed subtypes, would you still stand behind these typings?

I ask this primarily because I see some people decide some of their typings based on a subtype, that a person couldn't be NeFi unless they were NeFi Fi subtype, for example, if not, they'd be NeTi Ne subtype, but not Ti subtype... You see where I'm going. I might have ill-placed suspicion of subtypes, but I want to see how others take this and see if I'm being reasonable.

[munenori2]

Well for me:

Dad: ISxp-Si (I've thought about ISTj since his political beliefs are extremely rigid and narrow, but that's about the only thing he's that way about so probably not)
Mom: ESFj
Myself: ISFp (or INFj-Ne for you other guys :wink: Jake)
Bro: INTj-Ne (though he's not anything like simon cowell or niffweed for anyone typing them as LII, he's some sort of medium between carla's cooky-ness and mysticsonic's focused line of thinking)
Big little sister: not positive, I've thought IxFj mostly, but basically think any IxFx is possible. HUUUUGE Stargate fan, idealizes Amanda Tapping.
Little lil sis: ESFp, though I could see ESTp maybe.

[Jarno]

The current subtype system asks one to pick between extremes within a type. The truth often lies somewhere in the middle, which makes the current subtype system problematic...

no that's simply not true.

In another subtype thread Mimosa and I had (independantly) the same experience:

accepting subtypes: occupied by their leading function, throw information in the air. Like to hear themselves talk.

producing subtypes: try to convince others of their leading function. Like to see others hear them.

These are 2 different behaviours, with nothing in between.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Expat]

I'm not sure how useful I find the concept of subtypes these days, but, anyway --

My immediate family:

- mother: Fe-ESE
- father: Fe-SEI
- brother: Ti-ILE

Whether or not that means something: no idea.

I find plausible the idea that the subtype is learned behavior, but I have no firm view on that.

[JuJu]

accepting subtypes: occupied by their leading function, throw information in the air. Like to hear themselves talk.

producing subtypes: try to convince others of their leading function. Like to see others hear them.

Jarno, I've found this to be true, and it's how I decide someone's subtype as well, (accepting vs. producing...) We need a better description for 'accepting' though, b/c I doubt a lot of ppl would want to see themselves as liking "to hear themselves talk," even though the description is right on.



to answer sky's ?, personally, I (almost always) decide the sociotype before the subtype... but in some rare cases though, the info quoted above is really glaring, and thus I'll know a subtype--that is, e.g. I'll know whomever's being typed is an "accepting" subtype rather than a "producing" subtype--before I decide the person's sociotype. (Hopefully, that answers the question..?)

I understand what you mean about subtypes being a cop-out... (In conjunction with Socionics, I think some ppl use etypes in the same way...) Hopefully, the more ppl learn about Socionics/subtypes, that'll go away.

[Expat]

I understand what you mean about subtypes being a cop-out... (In conjunction with Socionics, I think some ppl use etypes in the same way...) .

Yes, that's a very good way of putting it.

Hopefully, the more ppl learn about Socionics/subtypes, that'll go away.

Except that some will never learn.

[Mattie]

to answer sky's ?, personally, I (almost always) decide the sociotype before the subtype... but in some rare cases though, the info quoted above is really glaring, and thus I'll know a subtype--that is, e.g. I'll know whomever's being typed is an "accepting" subtype rather than a "producing" subtype--before I decide the person's sociotype. (Hopefully, that answers the question..?)

Okay, it's possible I viewed it happening only a couple times, and I'm sensitive to the subtyping issue that it stuck in my mind

I understand what you mean about subtypes being a cop-out... (In conjunction with Socionics, I think some ppl use etypes in the same way...) Hopefully, the more ppl learn about Socionics/subtypes, that'll go away.

Both bother me so much! I wish it would stop, because neither are part of the cannon hypothesis... And it's not that I'm not open to new ideas, I'm definitely open, but as I said before, this current one from Gulenko is very unsatisfying.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[The Exception]

For my family:

Me LII-Ne
Mom ESE-Fe
Dad SLI-Te
Sister EII-Fe

Also, can someone's subtype change due to life circumstances and the like?

[Jarno]

Why can't you do one most of the time, and the other the rest of the time?

That is a same sort of question like, why can't you be IEI most of the time, and SLE the rest of the time.

You can't change type. You can't change subtype.

...as I've seen so far.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Not A Communist Shill]

I think my behaviour is certainly different depending on the people I am with, or simply the mood I am in, but it's difficult to say if this is subtype related. I think it's more likely that I am I and I simply act consciously and subconsciously with the use of all the functions. I do think interactions have an effect on your future behaviour, but not significantly. If you touch a flame once, you probably won't do so again...if there is a person you dislike, you may have to avoid them, but I should think you do it in your own way!