Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: A Brief Summary of Model A and the Functions

  1. #1
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default A Brief Summary of Model A and the Functions

    Here is a brief summary of Model A and the socionics functions:

    Function Descriptions:

    Te: is about practicality, efficiency, empirical logic, factual information, etc. Therefore, is about logic. However, unlike , is concerned not with an elegant, speculative, or valid solution on purely theoretical grounds, but a logical solution that "works." In this sense, the nature of is practical logic.

    Ti: is about analysis, clarity, logical relationships, systematic thinking, etc. Consider a mathematical formula. I would argue that understanding a mathematical formula is a matter of Ti. The reason is that a mathematical formula is a clear, concise specification that requires an understanding of the logical relationships amongst its parts. The formula might describe something in the real world, but trying to understand it is a matter of pure logic (it could be a manifestation of Te if understanding the formula is serving some kind of practical purpose, but that's a separate issue).

    Ni: is about forecasting, having long range vision, thinking in the future, daydreaming, having an idiosyncratic world view, appreciating the meaningful and "deep", etc. There are really two aspects to Ni. The first has to do with time. In this sense, people who use like to live in the past and/or future. The other aspect of Ni has to do with having a deep or poetic nature. For example, INFps (and INTps to a lesser extent) might express this through a preference for some type of spirituality.

    Ne: is about seeing possibilities, novelty, ingenuity, inventiveness, seeing the "big picture", seeing and developing the potential in yourself and others, etc. Like , there can be two aspects to . The first is essentially about generating ideas. Many Ne types like to speculate about what is possible more than what is actually the case, and this can take the form of generating ideas. Also, when one has to show ingenuity they usually do so through some sort of creative idea, and this would be an expression of . The other expression of Ne is being able to see the potential in situations, people, etc. This means that Ne types are able to help people develop their potential. (it also helps them to find situations that have potential).

    Fi: is about sentimentality, moral sensitivity, integrity, and depth of feeling. In this sense, there are two types of . The first is about moral integrity, the second is about having deep, hidden emotions. (I suppose another illustration of Fi is having a good understanding of human relations. For example, Fi types are very good at choosing friends and forming deep bonds with others.)

    Fe: is about emotional expression, enthusiasm, excitement, etc. Really, Fe involves all of the external manifestations of emotions. Therefore, Fe types are really good at being able to sense the moods and emotions of others, and by the same token, they are able to act in such a way as to elevate other people's moods.

    Si: is about comfort, aesthetics, being in touch with your senses and your body, etc. Really, is about anything sensory. types are really good at noticing things that involve their senses, whether it be art, their state of health, their environment, etc. Also, Si egos are able to create enjoyable sensory experiences, such as good food, a comfortable environment, etc.

    Se: is about strength, power, self-confidence, status, etc. Basically, view themselves as having a strong sense of reality, and, as such, they aren't afraid to tell others what they think. They usually have strong personalities, and are capable of getting others to accomplish what they want.


    Model A:

    Now that we've seen the nature of the functions, here is how they would fit into one's psyche based on Model A:

    Ego: functions that you value, are talented in, and are confident in.

    Super-Ego: functions that you are weak in and dislike in others.

    Super-Id: functions that you are weak in and like in others.

    Id: functions that you could be strong in but basically ignore and that you dislike in others.

    Functions 1, 4, 5, and 7, are more pronounced (i.e., they fit the descriptions of each block more than functions 2, 3, 6, and 8).

    If you can't tell what functions you value, then take a look at this vocabulary project: Vocabulary - Wikisocion.

    How you "feel" about the expressions of the functions might give you some insight into how they work for your type.

    Jason
    Last edited by jason_m; 06-12-2009 at 11:30 AM.
    LII

  2. #2
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    overall very good.

    but the phrase 'you dislike in others' that I see a couple of times...

    What about starting conflict relationships or supervisors. People are attracted to their functions since they seem strong where you are weak. That's not disliking, but liking. So I would simply delete that phrase. 'not value' is good enough already.

  3. #3
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8,337
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I liked it, but the only problem I saw was when you started talking about Fe as purely external, even though it is an internal function. I don't think that's the case, especially from an INFps point of view, who is internally emotional just like an ENFj, where as when you're talking about Fi you give note to emotions, which wouldn't really clarify the difference either, since in my opinion Fi is a fight for what's right more than some source of emotion. Fi emphasis of emotion is specifically directed to another person at a significant moment. So somehow fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Ego: functions that you value, are talented in, and are confident in.
    In my understanding, confidence is more about functions 1, 4, 5, and 8, since the other ones naturally waver in thought and give uncertainty to the user, these ones stay consistent and sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    That's not disliking, but liking. So I would simply delete that phrase. 'not value' is good enough already.
    Or "not put emphasis on," because I happen to like the term subdued more than nonvalued.
    Last edited by 717495; 06-12-2009 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #4
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ni
    having an idiosyncratic world view
    As far as I'm aware, this is diametrically opposed to the truth where INTps are concerned. Their Ni is focussed on realism and actuality. Their worldview is usually devoid of any local, ideosyncratic trimmings. This doesn't mean that they aren't in any way weird, but their worldviews tend to be rather square.

    INFps and ISFps do tend to have ideosyncratic lifestyles and views.

  5. #5
    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    TIM
    NeFi
    Posts
    1,108
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    For a beginner this would be useful, to help get the basic gist of a function before going in depth with them. I like that you included the function blocks as well because I think a lot of newcomers skip understanding anything outside of the ego. I do feel like the descriptions of the functions were too generalized and relied on stereotypes rather than specific information a little too much for me, especially the description. Just by looking at the length of each description, it seems kinda obvious what your skilled functions are

  6. #6
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Your "second" interpretation of "Fi" is essentially what MBTI calls "Introverted Feeling." Also, your description of Fe as being related to "external manifestations of emotion" is more specifically related to Fe blocked with Si.

    In addition, your descriptions are rather a bit too concrete to be satisfactorily encompassing from a Socionics standpoint.

    Generally it is obvious that your descriptions are MBTI influenced, at least from the perspective of what the concept of a function is meant encompass, but also from the content of your descriptions to a degree.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  7. #7
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Here is a brief summary of Model A and the socionics functions:

    Function Descriptions:

    etc etc
    I don't think your descriptions are of what those IM elements are "about" -- rather, they are of common manifestations of them (even as such I don't necessarily agree, but they're not too bad overall).

    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Super-Ego: functions that you are weak in and dislike in others.
    I'd say, rather, that you dislike it when others give them more priority than your ego functions; even more so, when others expect you to do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Id: functions that you could be strong in but basically ignore and that you dislike in others.
    I don't think that's correct. It's not that you "dislike" them as such, in others - for instance, you are attracted to your benefactor, who has your 8th function as 1st. Again, what you dislike about the id functions is when others value them over your ego functions and expect you to do the same.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  8. #8
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8,337
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Your "second" interpretation of "Fi" is essentially what MBTI calls "Introverted Feeling." Also, your description of Fe as being related to "external manifestations of emotion" is more specifically related to Fe blocked with Si.

    In addition, your descriptions are rather a bit too concrete to be satisfactorily encompassing from a Socionics standpoint.

    Generally it is obvious that your descriptions are MBTI influenced, at least from the perspective of what the concept of a function is meant encompass, but also from the content of your descriptions to a degree.
    I agree. It's not that we don't like them, it's just that they're too MBTIy, especially the feeling ones. I wouldn't recommend these to beginners just yet.

  9. #9
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Your "second" interpretation of "Fi" is essentially what MBTI calls "Introverted Feeling." Also, your description of Fe as being related to "external manifestations of emotion" is more specifically related to Fe blocked with Si.

    In addition, your descriptions are rather a bit too concrete to be satisfactorily encompassing from a Socionics standpoint.

    Generally it is obvious that your descriptions are MBTI influenced, at least from the perspective of what the concept of a function is meant encompass, but also from the content of your descriptions to a degree.
    Actually, there was no MBTI influence in my descriptions; they are based purely on factual knowledge of socionics and what I've observed in others.

    Jason

    Jason
    LII

  10. #10
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    For a beginner this would be useful, to help get the basic gist of a function before going in depth with them. I like that you included the function blocks as well because I think a lot of newcomers skip understanding anything outside of the ego. I do feel like the descriptions of the functions were too generalized and relied on stereotypes rather than specific information a little too much for me, especially the description. Just by looking at the length of each description, it seems kinda obvious what your skilled functions are
    Well, I wanted to give concrete examples to allow people (especially beginners) to understand how the functions manifest themselves. I think that if the descriptions become too abstract, they become difficult to apply in real life. As for , I have to admit that it's not a function that I have a strong grasp of, so I just tried my best.

    Jason
    LII

  11. #11
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I don't think your descriptions are of what those IM elements are "about" -- rather, they are of common manifestations of them (even as such I don't necessarily agree, but they're not too bad overall).



    I'd say, rather, that you dislike it when others give them more priority than your ego functions; even more so, when others expect you to do the same.



    I don't think that's correct. It's not that you "dislike" them as such, in others - for instance, you are attracted to your benefactor, who has your 8th function as 1st. Again, what you dislike about the id functions is when others value them over your ego functions and expect you to do the same.
    I have no qualms with any of your disagreements.

    Jason
    LII

  12. #12
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8,337
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well wouldn't you agree that the ethical function descriptions are a bit off? They do sound more like MBTI, in which yeah, I would have Fi. If I took account your descriptions then I would think I valued Fi. I like how you divided each one up though. You might even want to divide them up into positivist and negativist.

  13. #13
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I think that if the descriptions become too abstract, they become difficult to apply in real life.
    Indeed. I wish more people would think like that.

  14. #14
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Well wouldn't you agree that the ethical function descriptions are a bit off? They do sound more like MBTI, in which yeah, I would have Fi. If I took account your descriptions then I would think I valued Fi. I like how you divided each one up though. You might even want to divide them up into positivist and negativist.
    I think you're right - to an extent. My problem with Fi is that, like Ni, it is not a function I have a very strong grasp of. (Maybe some Fi types could give me their input to describe how they view it.) As for Fe, it's not MBTI-influenced. The problem, I think, is that my description might be too subjective. I think that each type might use their functions in a slightly different way, making the Fe of, say, an ESFj quite different from that of an INFp. I tried to describe what I experience with respect to Fe, but this might result in a description that is too much like that of an ESFj. I think that the bottom line is that it is hard to abstract the characteristics of a function in a way that can be easily observed and applied, because each function can be used in different ways.

    Jason
    LII

  15. #15
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8,337
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah I always picture the functions as the same basic form for every type, but wherever they're placed in that 8 spot positioning, they are forced into a new form, a different shape or color so to speak. Even though the goal is to capture the essence of that one function by what everyone does in human nature, that won't necessarily make the best description because of translation. People will ask, what do you mean? Can you be more specific? And of course things come down to subjective terms, and hopefully you can display these "examples" effectively enough. The best way is to merge that essense with every placement of the function model, or atleast the valued ones, and that can be quite difficult to do for just one person having a subjective perspective on it all.

  16. #16
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    As far as I'm aware, this is diametrically opposed to the truth where INTps are concerned. Their Ni is focussed on realism and actuality. Their worldview is usually devoid of any local, ideosyncratic trimmings. This doesn't mean that they aren't in any way weird, but their worldviews tend to be rather square.

    INFps and ISFps do tend to have ideosyncratic lifestyles and views.
    It's hard to explain some of the aspects of the functions using words - sometimes things get lost in translation - but, at a socionics conference, I asked Rick to describe Ni, because I didn't have a very good grasp of it. He gave me an example. He told me that he once asked Niffweed what his worldview was. Niffweed told him that his worldview is "like a sphere." Do you not think that this is an example of an idiosyncratic worldview?

    Jason
    LII

  17. #17
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Yeah I always picture the functions as the same basic form for every type, but wherever they're placed in that 8 spot positioning, they are forced into a new form, a different shape or color so to speak. Even though the goal is to capture the essence of that one function by what everyone does in human nature, that won't necessarily make the best description because of translation. People will ask, what do you mean? Can you be more specific? And of course things come down to subjective terms, and hopefully you can display these "examples" effectively enough. The best way is to merge that essense with every placement of the function model, or atleast the valued ones, and that can be quite difficult to do for just one person having a subjective perspective on it all.
    I agree with you, and think that your metaphor about the functions being similar but taking on different "shapes" based on their positions in Model A is interesting.

    Jason
    LII

  18. #18
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason_m
    It's hard to explain some of the aspects of the functions using words - sometimes things get lost in translation - but, at a socionics conference, I asked Rick to describe Ni, because I didn't have a very good grasp of it. He gave me an example. He told me that he once asked Niffweed what his worldview was. Niffweed told him that his worldview is "like a sphere." Do you not think that this is an example of an idiosyncratic worldview?
    Niffweed is a bit of a case apart.

    I'm mostly talking about INTps like Charles Darwin. There isn't a hint of ideosyncracy in the work of that man.

  19. #19
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    He told me that he once asked Niffweed what his worldview was. Niffweed told him that his worldview is "like a sphere." Do you not think that this is an example of an idiosyncratic worldview?
    To me that sounds like a niffweedian joke, which either Rick didn't grasp, or you did not grasp that Rick was quoting it as a joke.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  20. #20
    MysticSonic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,993
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    To me that sounds like a niffweedian joke, which either Rick didn't grasp, or you did not grasp that Rick was quoting it as a joke.
    It wasn't a joke.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

  21. #21
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    It wasn't a joke.
    Ok. But I wish it had been.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  22. #22
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    8,337
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings, always darker, emptier and simpler.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •