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Thread: Enneagram Type: 4w3 vs 4w5

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Default Enneagram Type: 4w3 vs 4w5

    tell me about them: their similarities/differences, ways to tell them apart, typical behaviors, your experiences with them, how an E4 could go about deciding which one they are, links to good descriptions, anything like that

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    I am fairly read up on the enneagram. The enneagram basically dictates your behavior. Socionics is the tool, enneagram is how the tool is used. It's separate. So don't think that the two are linked.

    This is a great site for the enneagram. The descriptions are to the point and very good. Here is the type 4 description to start off with- http://www.9types.com/descr/4/

    From there at the top you'll see that you can access other type's profiles. Also a little bit below that you will see something called "Diagrams", be sure to check those out too, those basically say what "loops" the said enneagram type can get in.

    As a 4w3 or 4w5, you will have mostly type 4 traits but also relate to some type 3 or 5 traits. They don't have to be all of the 5 or 3 traits, but just some. It's also possible to have balanced wings, but that doesn't happen too often and you usually lean toward one wing or the other.

    Good luck, ask me anything in a PM you want to about enneagram if you're confused. Cheers.

    EDIT: I also noticed you use AIM, so feel free to message me over that if you're confused as well.
    SEE-Fi 9w8 sx/sp

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    hmm well 4w5's like Starfall come across to me as sorta enigmatic. Like Bjork too. They are kinda artsy, withdrawn, and imo timid. Like supposedly its a very strange minded type. lol i think of the band Tool for some reason.

    4w3's seem more outwards. More there to make a stand and impress upon people. Like I'm different so there and everyone can suck it! (jk)

    yeah im no help lol
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    4w3s are much more outwardly and "other" directed in the way they carry themselves, while 4w5s go inward.

    Think of it this way, there's the core 4 fixation of envy and ruing over shame from abandonment. Then the wing is what they "do" with that fixation. So the 4w3 will take that envy and shame and create thie external persona that seeks validation of the image.

    Just imagine blending 4 and 3 energies, vs 4 and 5 energies.

    Enneagram 3s are "other directed" and seek to conform to an ideal image that others have deemed worthy and aggressively pursue living out this image. They have what Claudio Naranjo calls, a "marketing orientation" - picture those salesmen that try to promote hard enough at you so that you'll buy what they have. This is what the enneagram 3 does in the way it seeks to "sell" it's image to people, thus the "assertive" disposition.

    So 4w3s are 4s that have the influence of what I just described with the 3 and the focus on outward presentation and other-directed images.

    With 4w5s, there's the influence of the withdrawn 5 tendency to detach and go inward, to observe things, and be hesitant to actively engage.

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    The wings system is simple, you just decide what you relate to somewhat that's next to your main type and that's your wing. An example is that I'm an 8w9, I fully relate to the 8, and I also have some of the 9 qualities. I also relate to the 8 loop.

    As for the instincts here is another link for you that explains that- How the Enneagram Personality System Works
    SEE-Fi 9w8 sx/sp

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    I found this to be pretty good. This is taken from http://www.theenneagrambook.com

    Quote Originally Posted by theenneagrambook.com
    Four with a Three Wing: The Aristocrat

    Healthy

    Healthy 4w3’s can be both successful and inspired. They leave a personal touch in all the works they do, while maintaining some connection with the larger world. They enjoy public attention but are also committed to private self-exploration.

    Average

    Average 4w3’s can be provocative and attention-grabbing, whether through art or life. Their emotional turbulances are more on the surface than the more withdrawn 4w5’s, and it often translates to immediate and widespread interpersonal impact. They can have problems with vanity and self-indulgence, and can resemble sevens in their love of luxury and pleasure. But unlike sevens, sensations are not sought in themselves but as another accessory to their fantasy identity. They tend to “hide away” once the problems with self-image caught up with them. They can also be competitive, play emotional games, and cause “dramas” of various sorts.

    Unhealthy

    When 4w3’s are unhealthy, they are prone to hysteria and shallow/melodramatic emotional displays. They can have pronounced issue with self-image and shame. They feel justified to act selfishly because of their suffering. Narcissism and jealousy is also common.

    Famous 4w3’s

    Prince, Michael Jackson, Judy Garland, “Blanche DuBois”, “Madame Bovary”, Oscar Wilde, Marcel Proust, Gamart, Crov

    Four with a Five Wing: The Bohemian

    Healthy

    Healthy 4w5’s brings profound creativity and insights of the intrapsychic sort. Their emotions are more under-the-surface than 4w3’s, and more private modes of communication (such as writing) are preferred. They have intellectual as well as emotional insights and can often synthesize experiences into something intensely personal yet timeless.

    Average

    Average 4w5’s are devoted to cultivation of a personal worldview, often by philosophical or artistic means. They are more likely than the 4w3’s to be reclusive and out-of-touch with the greater social world, and to compensate they adopt unconventional/eccentric ways of life. They can be purposefully obscure and enigmatic in their expressions, then have an elitist and contemptuous view of those who failed to understand them. They tend to withdraw for prolonged periods under stress which can leave them further isolated. As a result, they are prone to hallucinatory states and total alienation.

    Unhealthy

    Unhealthy 4w5’s inhabit a terrifying fantasy-world of their own creation. Their emotional torments are turned inward, causing severe depression and self-destructive thoughts. While average 4w5’s can romanticize death, unhealthy 4w5’s plunge into it.

    Famous 4w5’s

    Johnny Depp, Kurt Cobain, Bob Dylan, Virginia Woolf, “Lin Daiyu”, Søren Kierkegaard, John Keats, Sylvia Plath, Jack Kerouac

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    thanks a lot for all that, Steve, it was helpful!
    You're welcome

    Btw, you're sure you're a 4? I don't have much of an opinion on your enneatype but I've seen some INFp 6s mistype as 4s. Have you ruled out 6?

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    aww.

    Oceanmoonshine is good stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    yes, I'm pretty sure that I'm not a 6. the next best thing would be E9, imo.
    Ah yeah, you're prolly right. 9>6.

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    The Only thing it stands out the most of glam is that I think she is Social instinct first, I don't know about the wings, I see you as very So/Sx and I see you and me have a lot of common similarities in that area.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    tell me about them: their similarities/differences, ways to tell them apart, typical behaviors, your experiences with them, how an E4 could go about deciding which one they are, links to good descriptions, anything like that
    Whether this method is right or wrong (most likely a gradient in between but at least 25% closer to right) I've always seen 4w5 as being related to INFp-Ni subtype - and likewise 4w3 to INFp-Fe subtype
    INFp-Ni

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    Both 4s are elitist and proud of being such because they have special insight into people and things that the "common man" doesn't...and so aren't disgustingly ordinary like they are.

    4w3 is called the "aristocrat" by riso and hudson and due to the w3 are better at masking their inferiority complex.

    4w5 is more like a "stigmata 4"...more of a mythologizing of their personal tragedy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MellowMarcello View Post
    Both 4s are elitist and proud of being such because they have special insight into people and things that the "common man" doesn't...and so aren't disgustingly ordinary like they are.

    4w3 is called the "aristocrat" by riso and hudson and due to the w3 are better at masking their inferiority complex.

    4w5 is more like a "stigmata 4"...more of a mythologizing of their personal tragedy.
    no, you idiot: 4w3s are basically like 5w6 sp/sx; the problem solver.

    4w5s, by contrast, are basically like 5w6 sp/sx.

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    ok, i'm pretty sure i'm a 4w3, but lately i've been really brushing up on my 5 wing i think... reading all sorts of shit, trying to learn more about my history and becoming self-educated and what-not. i've considered that maybe i just don't have a dominant wing... or perhaps i'm just developing.

    but anyway, the differences i have seen... are 1) that, yes, in comparison to my 4w5 wing pal, i am much more outwardly focused... but only in the sense that i care more what people think of me, and care a lot more about the impressions i make on people when interacting with them. also, 2) i think i'm a lot more idealistic... he seems to really take things the way they are... which i can't really stand lol. i even thought he might be 5w4, but i think that he isn't because even though he takes somewhat of a cynical and logical perspective on life, he still is... quite a dreamer like myself. in this i mean, that even though we come to some sort of "philosophical" conclusions about life, and even though we've been a very depressive, analytical, detached road in our lives... (a phase so to speak)... we still choose to believe in things that dont logically make sense. we're still both passionately inclined, and like to imagine the wondrous things in life are truly real... all the time... and that they can't be taken apart or broken down in to meaningless bits of reason. so in this way, i'm sure we're both 4s. but... i have much more trouble accepting the "truths" that he does.

    For example, (not to bring up another topic...but...) he thinks the idea of believing in a god is extremely extremely foolish, and delusional, and wrong... degrading to yourself i suppose. i have my own views on that.. (which i won't get into here..) and am not so.. "black or white" on the issue. i choose to be more open-minded in that area. i also enjoy studying things that are not really proven... the unreal...the strange, the fantastical... and instead of looking at them cynically and objectively and logically... i embrace them with high hopes. these things i talk of are basically anything metaphysical or fantastical.

    he sort of... laughs at these things. he distracts him self with video games, and puzzle games...while i love puzzle games and mind games as well, i don't have nearly as much patience for them. i'd much rather call an old friend up, or get to know a guy and see if he's flirt-worthy. i'd much rather go out and party or something... or just go have fun.

    so, overall... he's basically more practical and sort of...subjective than i. he just accepts ideas such as human beings just in truth being cold hard robotic stones if you "think hard enough about it"... but decides to set this aside in his mind and just... live. me... well... i consider this view, but i still chase high hopes of other philosophical truths... putting pieces to gether... possibly even deluding myself in the process of putting the pieces together of how the world works, and how people think and act and really truly are... i put the pieces together in an idealistic way that makes it so that the way people want things to be... can be rationalized so that it really is the way things are.

    my 4w5 pal just takes the facts, takes the logic, takes what he sees as it is, and doesn't stress himself out trying to make the ideals be true in his mind.

    i think in a way that is sort of like a 3... because a 3 would be more inclined to make things seem the way they *want* them to be... more idealistically...more emotionally. while a 5 sort of is like the "scientist". of course this isn't exactly what they are, but to me-- it's a good symbol.

    i hope that made some sense. just sort of went on and on, trying to clarify what i mean.
    "If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann

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    Default 4-5 wing?

    I just took an enneagram test and it said I'm most likely a 4-5 wing...in socionics, I'm apparently an fe-iei. Is this strange? What I mean is, it seems to me that, at a glance, 4-3 is probably closer to an fe-iei...am I wrong to think this? Do the two (socionics and enneagram) just measure totally different things? Am I just a weirdo? Thanks in advance guys.

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    4 is very common for IEI, and you, specifically, absolutely must have 5 somewhere as far as I'm concerned

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    haha

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    I actually took another more in depth test and it said I had "balanced wings"...whatever that means...I thought you had to have wings?! eh...all this stuff is confusing

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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    I actually took another more in depth test and it said I had "balanced wings"...whatever that means...I thought you had to have wings?! eh...all this stuff is confusing
    Wings aren't mandatory. You are your type and the wings are just ways of describing how your type may be affected by its neighbours. If you have balanced wings then the neighbours have equal affect, whatever its strength.
    Reason is a whore.

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    Average 4w5’s are devoted to cultivation of a personal worldview, often by philosophical or artistic means. They are more likely than the 4w3’s to be reclusive and out-of-touch with the greater social world, and to compensate they adopt unconventional/eccentric ways of life. They can be purposefully obscure and enigmatic in their expressions, then have an elitist and contemptuous view of those who failed to understand them. They tend to withdraw for prolonged periods under stress which can leave them further isolated. As a result, they are prone to hallucinatory states and total alienation...............Fe-iei... Loves to be in the centre of attention and dramatize proceedings, possesses a sense of humour. They easily manipulate by intonation and voice; can work successfully as a journalist --- They easily succeed in enticing the person they talk to. Outwardly they can appear extravagant; frequently takes a bohemian and bright form....this all seems so contradictory!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    Average 4w5’s are devoted to cultivation of a personal worldview, often by philosophical or artistic means. They are more likely than the 4w3’s to be reclusive and out-of-touch with the greater social world, and to compensate they adopt unconventional/eccentric ways of life. They can be purposefully obscure and enigmatic in their expressions, then have an elitist and contemptuous view of those who failed to understand them. They tend to withdraw for prolonged periods under stress which can leave them further isolated. As a result, they are prone to hallucinatory states and total alienation...............Fe-iei... Loves to be in the centre of attention and dramatize proceedings, possesses a sense of humour. They easily manipulate by intonation and voice; can work successfully as a journalist --- They easily succeed in enticing the person they talk to. Outwardly they can appear extravagant; frequently takes a bohemian and bright form....this all seems so contradictory!
    It isnt. There are many Fe- IEIs out there, there used to be some more on this forum but they disappeared.

    Let me ask you this: If the descriptions are contradictory then why do you idenify with both of them?

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    "It isnt. There are many Fe- IEIs out there, there used to be some more on this forum but they disappeared. " were any of them 4w5? ... and to your second question...solid point. definitely made me think

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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    were any of them 4w5? ...
    Yea thats what I meant, sorry, they were 4W5 and Fe-IEI.

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    oh. awesome possum. that makes me feel a lot better. thanks

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    I think 4w3s are more...I don't want to say volatile because we the connotation, but that's it. They're less stable, more willing to take risks. It's like they have the 4s need for individuality and self-identity, but the three wing gives them a bite; like they have something to prove to the world about themselves.
    A 4w5 would be more content doing their own thing, whatever.

    <3 4w3. But both the 4w3s I got this impression from were sx, so ymmv

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    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    4w5 makes sense for me. Though, I'd prefer to be 4w3. Withdrawing from the world is depressing.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
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    In my experience, 4w3s seem much more refined and controlled, whereas 4w5s tend to be crazy wild men like Nietzsche and crazedrat. 4w3s are much more aware of social dynamics, whereas 4w5s are wary of them. 4w3s tend to have a kind of classy Gatsby feeling to them, like models with sad eyes or something, whereas 4w5s are much more kind of noticeably brooding.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    I think 4w3s are more...I don't want to say volatile because we the connotation, but that's it. They're less stable, more willing to take risks. It's like they have the 4s need for individuality and self-identity, but the three wing gives them a bite; like they have something to prove to the world about themselves.
    A 4w5 would be more content doing their own thing, whatever.
    I like this description; the thing that carries over from 3 the most in 4w3s is the whole "proving" thing; with the sx and sp ones it tends to manifest in that kind of pedal-to-the-metal intensity way, testing their thresholds for intensity and experience, whereas the social ones poutily puff out their chests...lol. Either way there is a noticeably more refined touch to 4w3s.

    4w5s are the Nietzsches of the world. The lone voice in the wild, etc. They are kind of their own islands by default.

    Starfall IMO you are 4w3 sp/sx. Nobody admits their 3ness to themselves until they can be embarrassed into doing so
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    I think 4w3s are more...I don't want to say volatile because we the connotation, but that's it. They're less stable, more willing to take risks. It's like they have the 4s need for individuality and self-identity, but the three wing gives them a bite; like they have something to prove to the world about themselves.
    A 4w5 would be more content doing their own thing, whatever.

    <3 4w3. But both the 4w3s I got this impression from were sx, so ymmv
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    In my experience, 4w3s seem much more refined and controlled, whereas 4w5s tend to be crazy wild men like Nietzsche and crazedrat. 4w3s are much more aware of social dynamics, whereas 4w5s are wary of them. 4w3s tend to have a kind of classy Gatsby feeling to them, like models with sad eyes or something, whereas 4w5s are much more kind of noticeably brooding.
    These seem like they kind of contradict each other. 4w3 being "volatile, less stable, more willing to take risks" vs "refined and controlled".

    Which one is accurate?

    Maybe I'm weird because I'm SO last, but I don't really... always feel "aware of social dynamics". People have described me as incredibly quiet and awkward upon first meeting. Maybe I'm still not quite typing myself right after all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    4w5s are the Nietzsches of the world. The lone voice in the wild, etc. They are kind of their own islands by default.
    Thats quite right, 4w3's seem to be more "in this world" if that makes sense at all. 4w3's are also more "cultured" usually very into art and music and are more comfortable expressing their pain through art or writing. 4w5's are much more pensive/ philosophical, and may have a less stable sense of identity, more inhibited with self expression.

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    oh, i was the one who started this thread. i still go back and forth between 4w3 and 4w5. i am more sure that i am sp first than i am of my wing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clumsy View Post
    These seem like they kind of contradict each other. 4w3 being "volatile, less stable, more willing to take risks" vs "refined and controlled".

    Which one is accurate?

    Maybe I'm weird because I'm SO last, but I don't really... always feel "aware of social dynamics". People have described me as incredibly quiet and awkward upon first meeting. Maybe I'm still not quite typing myself right after all?
    Well I think we are describing different aspects. I am describing how they come across physically, my immediate impression, whereas FoxOnStilts is describing more how they work on the inside. I think w3s are generally more composed and intentional about how they come off, but are also much more concerned with "proving themselves" and will potentially do more drastic things to do it than 4w5s, who kind of "don't give a fuck" by comparison.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  33. #33
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    oh, i was the one who started this thread. i still go back and forth between 4w3 and 4w5. i am more sure that i am sp first than i am of my wing.
    4w3 sp/so
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  34. #34
    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    4w3 sp/so
    i lean sp/sx

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    i lean sp/sx
    Not impossible but less likely IMO; I can't really see you as so-last.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  36. #36
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Starfall IMO you are 4w3 sp/sx. Nobody admits their 3ness to themselves until they can be embarrassed into doing so
    I actually prefer the idea of being a 4w3. Sounds a lot more sexy & glamorous.

    What's wrong with 3's? I know shit about the enneagram.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  37. #37
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Well a lot of 3s are subconsciously reluctant to self-identify as a 3 and openly admit to it because its kind of antithetical to the illusion to do so.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  38. #38
    strrrng's Avatar
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    3 wing could make some sense for starfall. she's always struck me as a bit too attuned, in the, um, 3 way lol; and especially being an sp/sx, 5 wing becomes less likely, in comparison to someone like esper, who despite having a similar low-key refinement, you can tell is still 'somewhere else' generally. 5s also have this weird delicate quality, like the watchtower could crumble; whereas 3s are more overtly vulnerable, but attack with more precision.

    not so much being aware of pop culture, but relating to it in a way that suits different aspects of oneself that are kept at a guarded distance because, the stage has to be set right, type of thing.

    for reference she reminds me of an Fe-IEI 4w3 sp/sx hostess from my old restaurant; laid-back tension, somewhat insular but not cold, occasional bitchy undertones but maintaining a proper position. and all female 4w3s (esp w/ sx) have the same hauteur lol.

    it's energy, but yeah, I don't see the blind indifference most 5/5ws have with social aspects; she stays just hidden enough.


    as for glam, I would say 4w3 > 4w5. unsure on instinct; used to think so/sx, and she does feel a bit too light for an so-last. but I hadn't ruled out 9 for some reason.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    strrrng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    What's wrong with 3's? I know shit about the enneagram.
    lol they have a prenatal obligation to tell the truth.

    it'd be interesting to see how many 3s/3ws grew up around a solid amount of them. similar theme to deltas with betas. socionics is the future.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  40. #40
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Glam definitely has at least a 9 fix, however I can't see either wing working particularly well in terms of representing a primary type's primary feature. 4w3 seems most likely for primary; 4-6-9 is most likely.

    She is definitely not so last.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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