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Thread: Winston Churchill

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    Mostly i've seen Churchill typed as SLE although to me he's always felt like ILE. True he was iron-willed and persevering (usually associated with Se) but then under the circumstances it could just as easily apply to an ILE (if not more so, Ne resisting Se).

    Other traits also, his ability to inspire, understanding of his environment, tendency toward theory, reading & speculation and the fact he wrote the history of WWII all tend toward ILE rather than SLE. Furthermore his quotes tend toward this sort of thing "Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

    Compared to this Zhukov (SLE) who wrote almost nothing on theory, and quotes attributed to him tended toward this sort of thing "There are things in Russia which are not as they seem" ...... When you look further you see what real Se is in war time, again Zhukov "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." On a similar subject Churchill tended toward the abstract "If you are going through hell, keep going."

    Anyone make a convincing case Churchill was SLE rather than ILE?
    ILE

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    EIE(?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    EIE(?)

    Another one of his quotes (selective i know) but somehow his overall demeanor doesn't seem Beta.

    "Really I feel less keen about the Army every day. I think the Church would suit me better." - Winston Churchill
    ILE

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    ti sle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Compared to this Zhukov (SLE) who wrote almost nothing on theory, and quotes attributed to him tended toward this sort of thing "There are things in Russia which are not as they seem"
    Well Lenin was SLE and he wrote alot on theory.

    I still think Chruchill was Se SLE

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    Look at these pics, I'd say he was SLE





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    Ti ESTp

    I've read a bit out of his personal diaries. Clear Ni agenda, wild-dog ideology like Teddy Roosevelt. Epicly awesome.

    and omg was he an irrational.
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    Sure those photos strike a formal pose ..... but not enough to be convincing SLE in my opinion.

    In the photos above the manner is gentle/thoughtful more than harsh, the head slightly tilted and the eyes are a little glazed over.

    [For some reason i can't post images at this time]..... but in military photos i've seen ....SLEs (eg Zhukov & Lenin - esp in youth) tend to pose ramrod straight, the manner explicitly purposeful and "mobilized" with their eyes giving the impression of boring through something a little off in the distance.
    ILE

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    Some Se-seeming quotes of his. Sorry about lack of context..

    "I am certainly not one of those who need to be prodded. In fact, if anything, I am the prod."

    "If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack."

    "It is no use saying, 'We are doing our best.' You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary."

    "I was only the servant of my country and had I, at any moment, failed to express her unflinching resolve to fight and conquer, I should at once have been rightly cast aside."

    "One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from anything. Never!"

    "Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential."

    "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

    "Never give. Never give in, never, never, never. In nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense."

    "I never worry about action, but only inaction."

    "I have had, in the last four years, the advantage, if it be an advantage, of many strange and varied experiences, from which the student of realities might draw profit and instruction. But nothing was so thrilling as this: to wait and struggle among these clanging, rending iron boxes, with the repeated explosions of the shells and the artillery, the noise of the projectiles striking the cars, the hiss as they passed in the air, the grunting and puffing of the engine--poor, tortured thing, hammered by at least a dozen shells, any one of which, by penetrating the boiler, might have made an end of all--the expectation of destruction as a matter of course, the realization of powerlessness, and the alternations of hope and despair--all this for seventy minutes by the clock with only four inches of twisted iron work to make the difference between danger, captivity, and shame on the one hand--safety, freedom, and triumph on the other."
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Well, Jem. Those quotes support, at least, E*Tp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Well, Jem. Those quotes support, at least, E*Tp.
    You don't think they're Se?

    Could you see yourself subscribing to this philosophy?
    If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Perhaps. ESFps can be subtle, so that quote may be related to ET "minds"
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Perhaps. ESFps can be subtle, so that quote may be related to ET "minds"
    But it seems odd advice coming from an Si-valuer.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    I misunderstood the question, I thought we were talking about WC.

    True answer: sometimes I am blunt (the more) and sometimes (the less) I am diplomatic

    Am I the Si valuer?
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    I'm not sure what his type is, I don't know much about his wife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    I misunderstood the question, I thought we were talking about WC.
    Yeah, I was. We were? I referred to him as an Si-valuer because you were saying that he could be ILE.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    True answer: sometimes I am blunt (the more) and sometimes (the less) I am diplomatic

    Am I the Si valuer?
    Idk.. But I don't think a lack of diplomacy implies force. I would have thought that an ILE would take a more strategic approach to accomplishing something important.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    lol..

    Lady Astor: "Mr. Churchill, you're drunk!"

    Winston Churchill: "Yes, and you, Madam, are ugly. But tomorrow, I shall be sober."
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Who knows?

    I remember some Peter Griffin quote:

    (Chris falls in love with his female teacher)

    Lois: we have a little problem, miss whoever

    Peter: Let me speak, Lois. Ms.Whoever, my son wants to.....FUCK YOU
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    lol..

    Lady Astor: "Mr. Churchill, you're drunk!"

    Winston Churchill: "Yes, and you, Madam, are ugly. But tomorrow, I shall be sober."
    A genius
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    Most of the quotes above that appear valuing are in my view resistance to or in other words defence of priniciples. Most ILEs will do this as a matter of course. SLEs will if able tend to initiate aggression/conquest (eg. Alexander, Napoleon) but Churchill was in essence stubbornly defensive, not valuing in itself.

    Quotes attributed to Churchill that IMO are very unlikely to have come from an SLE -

    "A joke is a very serious thing."
    "Great and good are seldom the same man."
    "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."
    "I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals"
    "I am never going to have anything more to do with politics or politicians. When this war is over I shall confine myself entirely to writing and painting."
    "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."
    "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
    "It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations."
    "No idea is so outlandish that it should not be considered with a searching but at the same time a steady eye."
    "There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true."
    "We are all worms. But I believe that I am a glow-worm."
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Most of the quotes above that appear valuing are in my view resistance to or in other words defence of priniciples. Most ILEs will do this as a matter of course. SLEs will if able tend to initiate aggression/conquest (eg. Alexander, Napoleon) but Churchill was in essence stubbornly defensive, not valuing in itself.

    Quotes attributed to Churchill that IMO are very unlikely to have come from an SLE -
    Why? Se-egos can't or don't have principles? I'm sure you mean well, but Se isn't about being an "aggressor" on the world stage, in terms of initiating military conflict etc., please get rid of these overly-simplistic descriptions and stop giving Ezra ideas.

    Almost all of Churchill's quotes express keen interest in , , and . Churchill was Ti-ESTp.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    A lot of you pointed to in which case a 3 Dimensional function in ILE and 1 Dimensional in SLE .... For ILE its the seventh function, it is strong and can be expected to be active in times of stress or personal reflection as when writing [refer definition]. I wouldn't expect an SLE would be capable of showing the degree of sophistication in the use of evident in Churchills writing.

    When under pressure or "fighting for a bigger cause" or principle then ILE can and do demonstrate and often in a severe manner....its just of a different flavour to that evident in an SLE which is more deliberate, controlled, self serving and fully grounded in reality (ie not abstract). As in ILE myself i find no aesthetic problems with Churchills use of while i do find aesthetic differences with its use in quotes of individuals who are clearly SLE (eg Zhukov & Napoleon)

    Its true that SLE are capable of fighting for principle, and many focus experientially on the "highs" of life not just on territorial expansion but if you look at history you will find that great SLE leaders will fight for "the people" under "their leadership" not for democracy per se.(they are not labelled "conquerors" for nothing)....on the other hand ILEs do not always act like Weird Al Yankovic regardless of circumstance .... under pressure they can and do often look like SLE... these are not called "Look-alike" relations for nothing.

    Comments that my views are "well intentioned" but "simplistic" is standard fare and unfriendly in light of the discussion at hand but offers nothing new.

    Apart from thoughtful contributions by any type here, I would find interesting any opinion by another ILE here that Churchills quotes (and there are very many of them) could not be (or are unlikely to be) those of an ILE under pressure to save his homeland and way of life.
    ILE

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    The difference between our views is that I think an Ni-super id will be "stronger" or more "refined" in use of that function than someone who doesn't value it at all. No ILE is likely to have the consistant interest in and that Churchill displays, because they simply don't value them. Even under the circumstances of "fighting" WWII.

    The main thing I got from your posts is that you seem to think that Churchill is simply too intellectual and not boisterous enough to be Ti-ESTp. Reading what you stated re: SLEs being "historically" less inclined to fight for democracy, I'd say that "well intentioned" and "simplistic" are rather perfect descriptions of your understanding.

    I also recommend that you find a wider variety of SLE subjects for sake of thorough comparisons than just Zhukov and Napoleon, - whose quotes I looked up on wikiquote.org and found no signifigant depature in degrees of valuing/usage between them and the quotes by Churchill presented in this thread - especially if you are using them as benchmarks for how SLEs holding positions of leadership will behave.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    The difference between our views is that I think an Ni-super id will be "stronger" or more "refined" in use of that function than someone who doesn't value it at all. No ILE is likely to have the consistant interest in and that Churchill displays, because they simply don't value them. Even under the circumstances of "fighting" WWII.
    Yes it is a difference in views. It is a basic premise in socionics that the 7th function is inherently more capable than the 5th and will be used as necessary even when not favoured.

    Just compare ISTP to INTP (where you have direct knowledge of at least ISTP) .... lets say in a business situation ... who is more likely (or able) to exhibit as and where required (eg. in reprimanding an employee). You don't have to answer unless you want to but i have experienced both types as bosses and i can see a difference.

    The main difference between us here is that of the two of us, i am able to view one of the two types currently under consideration (ILE) directly as an identical gauging my own experience over a lifetime and under different circumstances while you must look at both these types (ILE & SLE) from a distance.

    Your suggestion that i've considered an insufficient number of SLEs again adds nothing, as you do not know. To date in this thread 4 have been referred to (Lenin, Zhukov, Alexander, Napolen) ....

    I guess easy enough for me to point to another SLE tyrant every time you deny SLE tendency for inherently aggressive action ....... Ghengis Khan.
    ILE

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    You want to believe you are the same type as Churchill. It's as simple as that. And why are you comparing him primarily to SLE tyrants and assholes, anyway?

    Churchill's quotes were not all given under extreme amounts of duress, I am sure most of them were given during periods where he was quite calm and collected and was just honestly expressing his personal viewpoints/perspectives. I highly doubt that even WWII is going to alter almost 99% of someones documented statements and written word from , valuing to , valuing, to the extent that Churchill's writtings and statements simply are.

    Winston Churchill was blatantly Ti-ESTp and it's time you accept it.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    You want to believe you are the same type as Churchill. It's as simple as that. And why are you comparing him primarily to SLE tyrants and assholes, anyway?
    Sure i do. I also want to believe i'm the same type as Alexander, Napoleon, Ghengis Khan et. al.... again you've added nothing of value.

    These SLEs were (without exception) at one time or another considered as national heroes by their people. Assholes is your word not mine. My only criteria in selecting among SLEs was that they had to have a status in world history comparable to that of Churchill ... nothing else ... and yet even by your own admission he doesn't sit comfortably in that group does he?

    No need to carry this further. My point was simply that i have interpreted Churchills actions as psychological stubbornness in defending an idea or ideal . Others interpret his manner as inherently .... and thats OK.
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Assholes is your word not mine.
    No, the fact that they are assholes is just plain evident.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    My only criteria in selecting among SLEs was that they had to have a status in world history comparable to that of Churchill ... nothing else ... and yet even by your own admission he doesn't sit comfortably in that group does he?
    How many mass murdering SLEs have you met who do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    No need to carry this further.
    Agreed, you are hopeless.

    Churchill's "ideal" was .

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    I don't think SLE makes any sense at all. My guess is SEE.

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    I find Rocket's analysis convincing. I think what some people don't realize is that while Se can be forceful in the physical arena, Ne can be forceful in the arena of abstract ideas.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Bump - vvhat do you think his type vvas? I'm also not convinced he vvas SLE. Any other suggestions?

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    I am not sure about Winston's type, but I can contribute some information about his wife, Clementine Churchill. I don't know if they were duals, but they were devoted to each other throughout their long marriage. He relied greatly on her discernment. I am pretty sure that Clementine was an EII. I have her biography, written by her daughter. Here are some descriptions of Clementine:

    - perfectionist
    - heroic streak
    - good judge of people, swift instinctive judgements that were hardly ever wrong
    - very poitically savvy
    - puritanical streak
    - would completely expend herself physically, when necessary, and often had to take a little break to recover
    - could wear herself out with worry
    - charming, and a good impromptu speaker
    - introverted, had few close friends, but entertained to help advance Winston's career
    - her sense of duty dominated her exsistence to the exclusion of her personal pleasure
    - she was jarred by brashness and vulgarity. Did not care for 3 of Winston's closest associates for that reason: Lords Beaverbrook, Bracken and Birkenhead.

    She was very prudent and practical. The effort and expense involved in maintaining Chartwell, the Chuchill's home which Winston bought despite her objections, were a constant worry to her.

    If she was an EII, then she would be Winston's conflictor if he was SLE. She would have supervised him if he had been ILE. Neither of those seem right in view of the close loving relationship revealed in their letters to each other.

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    neverthesame's Avatar
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    I think Churchill was LIE.

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    VVhen I look at his photos, listen to his voice I intuitively feel he vvasn't SLE but I need more information to say sth reliable.

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    his quotes look so stereotypical SLE to me.

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    During WWI, Churchill scorned the modest comfort of the Battalion HQ and lived in the wet and mud with the men in the firing line. "My physique is such that I support these conditions without the slightest ill effect." He did send frequent letters requesting food or other comforts - brandy, chocolate, gloves, boots, towels.

    He was also very practical and minimalistic in his wardrobe. From The White House Historical Association: Prime Minister Winston Churchill arrived secretly at the White House just before Christmas in 1941. During his 24-day stay the staff had to adjust to his eccentricities. Chief Usher J.B. West recalled, "We got used to his 'jumpsuit,' the extraordinary one-piece uniform he wore every day, but the servants never quite got over seeing him naked in his room when they'd go up to serve brandy. It was the jumpsuit or nothing."

    His daughter wrote that illness in his family evoked his capacity for sympathy and understanding. When his wife was seriously ill, he would sit by her bedside for hours, reading psalms to her. He did find it hard to understand how she could be laid low by nerves or fatigue, as "The Black Dog" (his euphamism for the depression that occasionally plagued him) never undermined his power of action.

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    clementine churchill and winston.jpg

    The Churchills one week before their wedding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    "Never give. Never give in, never, never, never. In nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense."

    "I never worry about action, but only inaction."
    I also love this quote from Churchill:

    "We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
    we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
    we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
    we shall fight on the beaches,
    we shall fight on the landing grounds,
    we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
    we shall fight in the hills;
    we shall never surrender..."

    Can anything in these quotes be used to identify EP vs EJ temperament in Churchill?

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    Churchill openly supported Hitler and especially Mussolini as a matter of policy, until the late 1930s - does that mean, he is same quadra as Jung?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverthesame View Post
    I think Churchill was LIE.
    Why do you have uniden in your avatar?

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    "A joke is a very serious thing."
    Funny but neutral regarding the type. -ness
    "Great and good are seldom the same man."
    bit of status
    "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

    "I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals"

    "I am never going to have anything more to do with politics or politicians. When this war is over I shall confine myself entirely to writing and painting."
    unvalued.
    "If ****** invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."
    - valuing?
    "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
    roleish?
    "It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations."
    -
    "No idea is so outlandish that it should not be considered with a searching but at the same time a steady eye."
    role perhaps showing skepticism.
    "There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true."
    -
    "We are all worms. But I believe that I am a glow-worm."


    From me one can not demand and expect:
    • practicality of ideas;
    • punctuality and diligence;
    • consistency and completeness;
    • constant order in the home and in the workplace;
    • quality of routine work;
    • soft skills to adapt to the interlocutor.


    Anal Expulsive personality (no hyphens for you)

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