Soft vs Harsh (Fe vs Fi)

[717495]

Is is just me, or does Fi with Se come off a lot more harsh (to some people, alphas)? Primarily Fi Se egos on this forum seem to make somewhat harsh and impulsive comments, often perceived as rude, and the response in my head is usually "what am I supposed to say to that?" or "did she really just say that?" I perceive a troubled soul. It often seems as though they just want an ongoing fight, or a bloody word bath, often of a quite sexual and violent tone. Likely Fi and Se ego, that's what I want your opinion of.

Fe users around here however do seem warmer and softer, much more friendly and polite, playful, but not in a impulsive or negative demeanor, and their words seem more carefully chosen. I somehow think Introverted Ethics egos have a hard time perceiving interpersonal ethics, although that is simply a figure of speech.

It's not the ethical part that seems ugly, but the outward display of Se that worries me with people. However of ethical types possibly expressing their Se, these kind of impulsive comments can come to me quite unexpectedly. I value Fe so much that Fi seems like a harsh contrast, especially manifested through my POLR.

[Bardia]

I think it appears very harsh because we don't always necessarily care about hurting others feelings as much as stating what we see as an accurate evaluation of a person or situation. Combine that with the fact that we are often very certain about our evaluation of others and their morals and I could see why people see us as harsh. I guess that sort of harshness doesn't really bother me at all though. Sometimes I even find it funny.

Obviously we don't always let out harsh judgements, some do more than others. I know when not to say stuff to upset people but sometimes the situation calls for something to be said or done. My disinclination for holding my tounge increases if i don't like the other person or I am in a bad mood.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[717495]

I understand where you coming from. Nowhere did I intend to say Fi egos didn't know what they were talking about when it comes to ethics, rather from my point of view, the form they use to express it is very cold, only because the emotions attached to them seem to end once given speech. One would have to encrypt the meaning into their own emotion instead of transferring emotion directly. Thus someone with weak ethics like me would not be able to catch onto the emotional vibe of the discussion.

[krieger]

Makes sense.

I think this generalizes to all Fi/Te valuing types, gammas being far more extreme at it than deltas.

It could be completely dependent on us alphas' viewpoint, though.

[717495]

To someone like me with weak and unvaluing Fi, it comes across as cold truth without emotion, yet the emotion is supposed to be there in my book, and any bit of information has potential to react with my hidden emotion. This is why I'm trying to understand Fi vs Fe in terms of Ti vs Te.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Lobo]

I have had this experience (shock) observing my good INFj friend attacking someone she's upset with. It almost seems cruel. But I know she feels very sure she is right. She's a very sweet, caring person, possibly my best friend outside of my relationship, at the moment. She isn't mean to me. But a couple of times I have felt it coming on (in the course of several years) and it scared me!

Hmm, I would be interested to know why she was upset.

Concerning the thread, I acknowledge that Fi can make people's lives unnecessarily hard. However, there is a reason which I do believe is well-intentioned for the harshness.

[krieger]

Repost of the post Polikujm responded to:

I personally also believe Irrationals are generally more harsh, direct and impolite about expressing their views than Rationals are.

I don't run into particularly much trouble with INFjs, ISFjs or ENTj, for instance.

Addendum:
Again, it's hard for me to say wether I'm talking about something that "I personally don't like" or something objectively harsh and impolite. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Bardia]

To someone like me with weak and unvaluing Fi, it comes across as cold truth without emotion, yet the emotion is supposed to be there in my book, and any bit of information has potential to react with my hidden emotion. This is why I'm trying to understand Fi vs Fe in terms of Ti vs Te.

Eh well when it comes to one liner comments I usually don't show emotion. I just don't see how it is necessary (It makes me uncomfortable to express emotions). Sometimes even when I am having an argument I can remain emotionless. Other times when I get very angry you can tell. I'm yelling and screaming lol. Now you want to see a scary angry person you get an ENFp mad. I did that once before and she nearly burned a hole through me with her eyes and still managed to keep poised.

[717495]

How would Ne be harsh?

By that I really meant a "similar" complaint like the harshness of Se paired with Fi. Instead of Ne seeming harsh, perhaps a better word is useless, stupid, etc. Harshness is rather the after affect those types of comments have on me, by what Fi egos produce, not directly of Fi. So whatever behaviors that Ne egos induce might cause one ESI to overthink, but your emotions or thoughts via behavior of your POLR are better defined by your experience and not my knowledge of ESIs.

[Azeroffs]

I still haven't met an ESI. They sound feisty

[Mattie]

This "harshness" is most likely type related, in a sense which "harshness" you do or do not mind. When I was reading this, I was thinking it was a more valuing thing, because the majority of "harshness" that I view here comes from Beta and Gamma. I don't find in itself harsh, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that would describe me as harsh, and this might extend to all the valuing ethical egos. I don't think on its own makes for a more pleasant atmosphere, but most of the people on the board seem to be valuing.

[Azeroffs]

Yeah I would imagine is thinking 'that's not right', and then is like "Wtf you just say!?!" rather than being like "You could have handled it like this."

keeping it simple.

[Lobo]

This "harshness" is most likely type related, in a sense which "harshness" you do or do not mind. When I was reading this, I was thinking it was a more valuing thing, because the majority of "harshness" that I view here comes from Beta and Gamma. I don't find in itself harsh, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that would describe me as harsh, and this might extend to all the valuing ethical egos. I don't think on its own makes for a more pleasant atmosphere, but most of the people on the board seem to be valuing.

Actually, I see Fi and Se and matters dealing with an absence or intense amount of these two elements as what is considered "cruel" and "harsh." Fi can hurt people really badly emotionally, and like I mentioned before, make life difficult. Imagine being infatuated with someone for example, only to receive with a dead pan expression that the person does not like you. Knowing how someone feels about you can be really painful, and it might not want to be heard. For Fi types, however, there is a tendency to value this type of knowledge. To people who don't value Fi, they might think that it's evil.

[717495]

Actually, I see Fi and Se and matters dealing with an absence or intense amount of these two elements as what is considered "cruel" and "harsh." Fi can hurt people really badly emotionally, and like I mentioned before, make life difficult. Imagine being infatuated with someone for example, only to receive with a dead pan expression that the person does not like you. Knowing how someone feels about you can be really painful, and it might not want to be heard. For Fi types, however, there is a tendency to value this type of knowledge. To people who don't value Fi, they might think that it's evil.

That's a good way of almost contrasting the two Fi and Fe in this circumstance, and I can relate to Fi in the nonethical truth-seeking sense of Ti, which makes me think that Te egos perceive a sort of non-emotional harshness from Ti. The introverted function thinks that the extroverted version is not truthful enough, where as the extroverted function thinks the introverted version is not useful enough, even if both can be quite useful and truthful.

It might even be a safe bet to say the introverted function thinks the extroverted is not truthful enough, thus is not useful enough, and the extroverted function thinks the introverted is not useful enough, thus is not truthful enough.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Azeroffs]

The introverted function thinks that the extroverted version is not truthful enough, where as the extroverted function thinks the introverted version is not useful enough, even if both can be quite useful and truthful.

Wow, I think that just about sums it up. Makes perfect sense for both F and T, and actually in part, S and N as well. Extroverted is looking for use and introverted is looking for truth. Genius :tongue:

[717495]

Wow, I think that just about sums it up. Makes perfect sense for both F and T, and actually in part, S and N as well. Extroverted is looking for use and introverted is looking for truth. Genius :tongue:

I think this could also manifest the perception of ego, seeking both, one dependent of the other:

Originally posted by polikujm
It might even be a safe bet to say the introverted function thinks the extroverted is not truthful enough, thus is not useful enough, and the extroverted function thinks the introverted is not useful enough, thus is not truthful enough.

or more likely "extensively detailed," "too extreme," "unneeded."

[717495]

Ah okay.

On this:

I'm not intentionally harsh, but I often don't filter my words, or soften them. And it's because they lose too much meaning when you do. I also press for direct communication with me. For instance, it's come up a few times that someone says something that sounds kind of vague, so I'll ask another, more direct question. If they again evade answering the question by making it sort of hazy or a half-answer, I'll ask an even more direct question, until I get a straight answer to what I was asking about.

The softening of communication is hard for me, and makes me feel sort of slimey afterwards, even if I know in some cases it's needed. But, I even have a hard time with compliments sometimes, because when I give them, they sometimes come out sounding weird, or fake, even though they're sincere. For instance, I complimented strrrng's writing, and thought afterwards, "ugh, I hope he doesn't think I'm trying to ingratiate myself to him."

The type of person who can and does cozy up to people through flattery, or gets things through complimentary persuasion is the opposite of who I am. It feels, I don't know, fraudulent or something. But even the lesser degree of just purposely gentleifying speech too much can feel that way. I really don't think I come across as unduly harsh though. I mean, I'm obviously seeing from my own perspective, but I think I'm usually fairly kind to people.

This makes me wonder what happens in duality, say the Fi directed upon the Fe ego instead.

Between an LII and ESE, if the LII activates his role function (Fi) in place of Ti, how uncomfortable could that be for the ESE? The answer is bound to be along the lines of the "illusionary relation," however I could imagine it worse if the ESE doesn't expect such a transition. This could go both ways in this relation, the merry alpha partner suddenly becoming serious via an unvalued function in annoyance to his dual.

[Rubicon]

I have the same feeling with Fi. Possibly not Delta Fi.. But especially with an SEE I know. The way she passes judgment on other people makes me nervous - like eh.. why not you and I too? I'm more inclined to laugh at the sort of things she condemns .. which possibly bothers her a bit .. but I think she just thinks I have a dark sense of humour. lol Our main difference in thinking is that I can't understand how you can condemn someone's actions without knowing the logic or feelings behind them .. while she thinks that actions and the results of them speak for themselves.

[Warlord]

Is is just me, or does Fi with Se come off a lot more harsh (to some people, alphas)? Primarily Fi Se egos on this forum seem to make somewhat harsh and impulsive comments, often perceived as rude, and the response in my head is usually "what am I supposed to say to that?" or "did she really just say that?" I perceive a troubled soul. It often seems as though they just want an ongoing fight, or a bloody word bath, often of a quite sexual and violent tone. Likely Fi and Se ego, that's what I want your opinion of.

It's not the ethical part that seems ugly, but the outward display of Se that worries me with people. However of ethical types possibly expressing their Se, these kind of impulsive comments can come to me quite unexpectedly. I value Fe so much that Fi seems like a harsh contrast, especially manifested through my POLR.

Hehe, you would really "love" my FiSe sister.

I somehow think Introverted Ethics egos have a hard time perceiving interpersonal ethics, although that is simply a figure of speech.

I would say it's the opposite, Fe-egos don't keep the proper psychological distance, while Fi-egos are excellent at that. But this might be about Fi/Fe preference.

[Warlord]

Glam, you deleted your message. My answer, yeah I think both can. It just can come wrongly to those people who don't value the information element, especially if they have it as their PoLR.

Actually the thing often with Fe-egos is that they come too strongly in a "warm" way and there's a mismatch to how it's supposed to be.

[crazedrat]

Fi & Se egos will not stroke your cock until you earn it first. But Fe & Si egos are the cocksuckers of the socion. Since you like to have your cock sucked both mentally and physically in real life .. (I'd even say this is one of your primary interests in sex), Fi & Se annoys you. You don't want to have to earn cock strokes. You want them to be given out freely. That's what getting your dick sucked is all about. And you love Fe & Si. They are such masters of cocksucking the boss at work. Why do you think that cliche about secretaries sucking the boss's dick exists? Because secretaries are ISFps. The other day this ISFp girl was telling me she really wants a tongue ring. I was like 'why..?'. She said it was cuz tongue rings will help her suck dicks better. ESFjs are cocksuckers too.

[Creepy-male]

The softening of communication is hard for me, and makes me feel sort of slimey afterwards, even if I know in some cases it's needed. But, I even have a hard time with compliments sometimes, because when I give them, they sometimes come out sounding weird, or fake, even though they're sincere. For instance, I complimented strrrng's writing, and thought afterwards, "ugh, I hope he doesn't think I'm trying to ingratiate myself to him."

Interesting. I wonder if there are shades of Si in that?

At least for me, personal honesty is not overthinking or planning my actions.

I really don't think I come across as unduly harsh though. I mean, I'm obviously seeing from my own perspective, but I think I'm usually fairly kind to people.

I'd have to agree with you on this. You're definitely one of the more reasonable posters on these forums.

I'd be interested to see which types in particular see you as harsh, though.

[redbaron]

even tho I'm Fe, I appreciate up-front honesty such as Diana's. And although I do enjoy basking in an Fe atmosphere from time to time, I dislike it when people lie to be "nice" or make fake compliments. I dunno. I like it when people are straightforward about who they are and what they want.

[Lobo]

Hmm... I'm trying to recall a specific instance. Let's see... she didn't think her ex. was giving her enough attention when she came for a visit so she fiercely told him exactly what he was doing wrong. Of course, he didn't take this very well and got hurt feelings (not knowing he had been doing anything wrong). There's lots of other instances.

Also I see it when she states opinions about morality (her viewpoint on her subjective morality, saying something like, "if SOandSO does BLANK then that means they are BLANK and deserve BLANK!" and then I ask her, "But what if they're just trying to BLABLABLA and they have innocent motives? Haven't you ever done BLANK yourself?" and her response: "No. I would never do BLANK. I am (the opposite) and I would never do BLANK"). I hope my example makes sense, even without specifics, haha...

The thing is, I don't mind this in her at all. She couldn't be more supportive or kind or sweet to me, so of course I forgive her all perceived "uptightness".

Oh ok, I see .

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I typically don't find ISFj's harsh irl. They can however make harsh choices, yet seem to have the ability to do it in a way that doesn't make them look bad or ruffle the feathers of the people involved (Fi understanding interpersonal relations helps with this).

I don't particularly see it this way with all of the self-typed ESI's on the forum.

[Bardia]

"But what if they're just trying to BLABLABLA and they have innocent motives?

The pitfall with this advice is that we are either A. Very certain we know their motives (whether we really do or not) or B. Don't care about the motives just the action. We don't think about the what ifs really. We focus on what happened.

[discojoe]

If anything irritates me in the slightest, or is something I think is stupid in some way, I have a VERY hard time controlling the urge to say something harsh and mean-sounding. I understand why some people are put off by this, but the impulse is there nonetheless.

[Azeroffs]

I think what you need to remember is that we don't have discrete blocks of Fi, Ti, Se, etc., that can be interchanged -- Fi in the LII is qualitatively different to Fi in any other type.

What you would have is not an LII replacing his Ti with Fi, but an LII using his Fi role in the relationship with the ESE, which we can probably safely assume doesn't irk the ESE too much being duals are supposed to be less annoying than most other types.

Exactly what i was going to say. When an LII is using Fi, it's more superficial. For an LII, Fi is seen as political correctness. ESE will see this and ignore it because they see it as boring and unnecessary. LII will notice the ESE not responding to his business-like ways and then be able to relax back into his Ti.

Thats why for example, I love when people de-value Fe because then I can stop acting nice and upbeat and get down to the interesting Te topics.

[717495]

Exactly what i was going to say. When an LII is using Fi, it's more superficial. For an LII, Fi is seen as political correctness. ESE will see this and ignore it because they see it as boring and unnecessary. LII will notice the ESE not responding to his business-like ways and then be able to relax back into his Ti.

Thats why for example, I love when people de-value Fe because then I can stop acting nice and upbeat and get down to the interesting Te topics.

So just by the definition of the role, are you implying that the role acts as a natural shield for its leading function, one so heavy in the midst of social undertaking, that the disposition to let it go would be relieving? In that case, an adjacent function like so would be rather adequate as a shield I imagine, simply based on its available symmetry to the leading, its capability for interaction with the creative, and its subdued condition.

[Azeroffs]

So just by the definition of the role, are you implying that the role acts as a natural shield for its leading function, one so heavy in the midst of social undertaking, that the disposition to let it go would be relieving? In that case, an adjacent function like so would be rather adequate as a shield I imagine, simply based on its available symmetry to the leading, its capability for interaction with the creative, and its subdued condition.

Yeah, exactly. The Role can act as a shield, but I'd say it's more for those you interact with and not a shield for yourself. We use it so that we don't come down too hard on people with our base function. We do it to stay diplomatic, but as you get to a closer psychological distance you drop that shield and let yourself loose.

[717495]

Yeah, exactly. The Role can act as a shield, but I'd say it's more for those you interact with and not a shield for yourself. We use it so that we don't come down too hard on people with our base function. We do it to stay diplomatic, but as you get to a closer psychological distance you drop that shield and let yourself loose.

Oddly enough, when I'm around people I'm uncomfortable with, the Fi seems rather natural, even though technically it's not something I tune into all the time. It seems like something that could be part of my value system, but I can see how that could seem like that seeing as that Fi deals with repulsion and attraction. A note on that as well is that I don't tend to express the role, though I couldn't see a reason to automatically express it in the first place. Fi also turns on when I'm around those, maybe analyzing one person, I am actually comfortable with, to where I identify with why I'm attracted to their words or behaviors. It reminds me of the dream state, to which one remembers their thoughts or reality of situation only once coming to it again, thus the situation of the role function is an ongoing "social" state where the big picture of that state within one's self can be fully recognized once again, however only while it's being used.

[Azeroffs]

Oddly enough, when I'm around people I'm uncomfortable with, the Fi seems rather natural, even though technically it's not something I tune into all the time. It seems like something that could be part of my value system, but I can see how that could seem like that seeing as that Fi deals with repulsion and attraction. A note on that as well is that I don't tend to express the role, though I couldn't see a reason to automatically express it in the first place. Fi also turns on when I'm around those, maybe analyzing one person, I am actually comfortable with, to where I identify with why I'm attracted to their words or behaviors. It reminds me of the dream state, to which one remembers their thoughts or reality of situation only once coming to it again, thus the situation of the role function is an ongoing "social" state where the big picture of that state within one's self can be fully recognized once again, however only while it's being used.

Dimensionality of functions - Wikisocion

The role function is quite capable of being natural, but it is undervalued and not the strongest interpreter. Everyone values interpersonal connection, but the way we value it is different. Valued Fi tends to prefer cold understanding of interpersonal connection, and valued Fe tends to feel like knowing doesn't mean anything unless it is expressed.

My understanding of Fi is that it focuses on tact. Fi egos will not appreciate someone being rude even if it is in a joking way. Fe is about keeping that warm and positive atmosphere and is more likely to take a joke, but at the same time it expects you to know things without clear statement.

I've noticed Fe egos want you to read between the lines. They'll say one thing and expect you to interpret it as something else. Fi egos believe more in honesty and clear expression especially when blocked with Se.

[The Exception]

I understand where you coming from. Nowhere did I intend to say Fi egos didn't know what they were talking about when it comes to ethics, rather from my point of view, the form they use to express it is very cold, only because the emotions attached to them seem to end once given speech. One would have to encrypt the meaning into their own emotion instead of transferring emotion directly. Thus someone with weak ethics like me would not be able to catch onto the emotional vibe of the discussion.

Maybe this applies more to the gamma Fi types. The delta Fi types I know, seem to go to great lengths to present warmth and not to hurt anyone's feelings.

[MysticSonic]

Maybe this applies more to the gamma Fi types. The delta Fi types I know, seem to go to great lengths to present warmth and not to hurt anyone's feelings.

I wonder if it's more because they are incapable of being harsh due to weak Se?