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Thread: School of Associative Socionics: personality development, functions, and compatibility

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    Default School of Associative Socionics: personality development, functions, and compatibility

    I thought people have got a lot of imagination here...and no repies!
    It would be good to develop an alternative (associative) description of functions so that people could understand/feel functions better.

    I give an example:

    - abstract/fine/exact matter/materia, concentration/thinking (only possible in content and quiet/"passive" state/mode), rigid/structural/systemic......geometric form/maths...technical intellect/progress, ( I am a bit struglling to find the word from the real world of nature, may be because it is a product of mind?!) -rationality

    - quiet emotion/feeling, deep quiet waters, slow motion/river, contentment/concentration, contemplation/reflection, mirror, deep understanding, sensitivity of feelings...What else?

    - sensitivity of touch, softness of materia, clear and tidy space, lots of it, beauty and taste, coordination, conformity,indulgence (somebody mentioned it before...), pumpering, content/concentrated pleasure,colour -irrationality...anything else?

    - content/controlled, dimensional direction of fire (candle, fireplace), piercing sound, the light from the lighthouse, ray, tune,dissolve, illusion....irrationality. What else?

    - solid/material rigid structure, building, practicality and usefullness, resoursful, active mode, conformity of material forms, architecture...rationality. What else?

    - dynamic, powerful emotions/waterstream, waterfall, stormy sea, flooding or relaxing sound of waterspring in the forest.....rationality.

    -strong wind, tornado, power to move and change, action, earthquake, vibrant colours and loud sounds, hit of the sun, extreame joy/anger, optimism, abundance, distruction and the power of life, sensuality, sex, money, adrenalin -irrationality

    - explosion, uncontrolled fire, active vulcano, burning house, reaction, transformation,revival, regeneration - irrationality

    If we assume that functions are dimensions they may have include some positive and negative charateristics. I was struggling to do it on my own.
    I am sure there are mistakes in those descriptions as it is difficult (or impossible to be objective).


    My idea is to understand better the interaction of functions and compatibility of types. I argue (I don't ask you to agree with that !) that compatibility of types is different to what socionics suggest.

    1. I believe that for the "perfect" compatibility, Entroversion/Extraversion dimension is not that important and can be compensated by a second strong function. The question is what introverted types can easily appear/play extraverts and what extraverted types can appear as introverts?


    2. I also believe that the key to compatibility is in rationality/irrationality dimension of the same Extraversion / Introversion dimension. It is easy to demonstrate if you look at the first and the last function of
    INTJ - my husband
    ISFJ - me

    We do not irritate each other, we are similar in many ways: he is into builiding structures in his mind and I am into my "deep waters" -internal feelings. However, when I start to use my creative/second function excessively - he get's irritated as it stirs his second creative/function .

    I guess, a lot of things could be understood and explained if we would create an alternative langauge to symbols of socionics. May be it seems not necessary for the types with abstract thinking but for types like me everything should be grounded so that I could understand it better.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Development of the psyche and intertype relationships

    1. In this article I would like to write not just about informational metabolism but about flexibility and development of the type, which impacts on the intertype relationship. My theory/vision is in the process of development and is open for consideration and improvement. I believe that the description of intertype relationship is far from perfect and not to be trusted as real life relationship are not quite as they are predicted by the socionics’s theory. The differences within the type are not sufficiently explored and are limited to positive/ healthy and negative/unhealthy descriptions. Saying that I would like to remind you that there is not enough empirical evidence at the moment to support the interype relationship theory so, please, keep your mind open.


    I believe that the psyche has got two sides: a stable core or a base and the flexible or changing, self-adjusting part. The existing knowledge suggests that psyche has got a shape as a “moving cross“. We can assume that socionics typology taps into the stable core (as well as describes patterns of the relationships between the types), which explains to us that the human world is organised that there is a meaning in
    socion and nothing happens without a reason. I would definetly agree to that and that is how people came to believe in the existence of destiny. However, there is a contra belief that it is possible to change your destiny to a certain degree (e.g. astrology, common sense). Something does depend on our free will and choice. The dilemmas like this are many and we deal with them every day.

    I believe that functions are not stable qualities but dimensions and thus each type has got a base mode (which is better described by one of the 16 types) and supportive mode which is described by the functions of the opposite colour. For ISFJ the supportive mode will be ESFJ, for INTJ it is ENTJ, for ENTP it is INTP and etc. Shall we consider one of the types, e.g. ISFJ. What does the base mode means? It is usual self or the way you process info, your support mode means you can use it when you need to or when you want to, in some situations. The whole idea of dimensional functions is that you learn to balance them and to use it to your benefit in the relationships with others. Balance is the key to progress in any development.



    Base mode Support mode

    Fi………………………………..............................Fe

    Se………………………………...............................Si


    Ne………………………………................................Ni

    Ti………………………………..................................Te



    Another important development is about dynamics between the blocks. I have described it in one of my posts. The change within the time is applicable to quadras, to society and possibly to any process. So it is possible to suggest that we use different functions and different blocks to a different degree as we develop and grow.

    2 . These is from my previous posts:

    It well could be that:

    1. As children we are using more creative function than the base function?

    2. When we are adults we get into the base function mode?

    3 When we are mature adults we use a lot of the third function (or both of the functions) from the superego block?

    4. Why can not we suggest that through life we strive to improve our weak functions as a simple matter of survival?

    5. At the differnt periods of life we may be attracted to different partners which are more suited to our developmental level at that time and that is why relationships can last or not last, because we change, we learn about ourselves and others and make decisions. Hence nothing is without the reason and is a matter of a learning process.

    I will show it for example on INFJ type (I can only assume what I am saying): When he/she is a child it is more in a extraverted Ne mode ( I don't know the expression of this mode exactly, please, help....).
    When it is adult it is more of a base mode Fi. While he may find Ti as facinating he/she still uses a lot of Fi+ Ne to get where he wants to. At this time he has not got power yet (power to push things, to give a direct advise on what to do, how to do and is reluctant to act without careful thought about consequences). But if he/she works on Ti and accumulates a lot of ethical+ theoretical knowledge about the world of people (not math!) through hard work he will become more confident and will be more involved in actually giving direct advice what to do and how to do and possibly in action. If he will not accumulate enough knowledge than he will stay rather an intuitive subtype (more reflective than active
    mode). Not all INFJ have to be that way (thinking subtypes), it depends on many different factors and purpose of your life, I guess. I considered only two first blocks but circumstances may bring changes into the type and he/she may develop qualities which are not supposed to be there. The last thing I would like to mention, when we talk about Ti in association with Fi we actually talk about a qualitatively different thinking which can be called ethical thinking or moral reasoning.

    I also believe that through life we develop in the direction from EGO block ( I know) to Superego block (I need). And may be from Superid (I want) to Id block (I can)? Because I need and I can suppose to give us confidence or sort of a freedom. Just to know that you are right or to know something and just to want something is not enough to get where we have to be nd where is the best for us.

    3. Now, I would like to consider the question which no one yet on this forum have answered sensibly. I have got a perfect relationship with my husband (ISFJ +INTJ). From the point of socionics it is simply impossible. I argue that it is possible as it is a reality for us. I believe that there are many happy couples out there with the intertype relationships which would be not “approved” by socionics’ theory simply because the theory:

    1. It considers the function as a stable characteristic and not as a dimension.
    2.It is too rigid and can not account for all possible combinations of real life relationships.
    3. It is not sufficient in the description of dynamics within the psyche.

    One of the possible explanations would be:

    If I consider myself as a balanced ISFJ that means I am clever enough to use all my strong dimensions Fi---Fe and Se---Si. That means I can equally fit to two different types ENTJ and INTJ. If I myself as a balanced individual who achieved a sertain degree od development of my weak function (SUPEREGO block Ne + Ti) than I would probably be more interested in the INTJ type of a partner than ENTJ type.
    However, if you consider that the ENTJ or INTJ types could be balanced types as well: on their dimensional functions (Te ----Ti and Ne----Ni) as well as on their blocks (Ego----Superego), then we shall have more flexibility in the intertype relationships and it would fit more to the reality than the rigid structure of Socionics.

    I did not mention anything about other blocks or negative psychological conditions which could impact on the development of the psyche and thus will add more detail to the intertype relationships. For example, two dual types may have a bad relationship due to the one of the person having a psychological condition and etc.

    Your comments are welcome!
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default

    To Smilingeyes!

    Please comment it. Olga is your dual and I would like to know what do you think of her theorys.
    Semiotical process

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    i actually started a post similar to this awhile back but it seemed like i would be harping on something no one would "get" so i didn't post it. it had pictures and everything. here it is w/o the pics and cut off at the end:

    I don't know why this is bothering me but it is so I will waste some time talking about it so that some of the shit I've seen on this forum will stop irritating me.

    What if we stopped thinking about functions in terms of Ne vs. Ni or Ni vs. Si or whatever and viewed them all as gradients on a graph. For example if we wanted to see the difference between and we could view them as at opposite ends of the Ji spectrum like so:

    <----------|---------->

    Under conventional socionics an inxj would be -1 and an ixfj would be +1.

    Now we apply magnitudes to functional development. Not all people of type xxxx use their functions to their fullest extent right? Some of them have more "developed" capabilities. So let us say that person A has x and person B has 2x . We would show that as:

    |
    | o
    | o
    | o o
    | o o
    ------------
    A B

    Ok simple. Now we look at two people of the same type and two of their functions simultaneously. Instead of creating a different graph for each function we can show both on the same plane.

    Two infps:

    [img][/img]

    infp one has 2 Ni and 1 Fe and the other has 4 Ni and 3 Fe.

    Note that the same diagram can be used to explain enfjs if you take having more Fe than Ni to equal being enfj and having more Ni than Fe to equal infp.

    [img][/img]

    Now what about the rest of the functions? The problem is in what you see as the "opposite" of property x (if anything). If we want to describe a person in terms of all 8 of their functions problems arise. For example is the "opposite" of an intj (TiNe) an esfp (SeFi) when an intj supposedly has access to "esfp space" in their consciousness (though in a weak format)? Is the greater distinction one of conscious vs. unconscious (functions 1-4 vs. 5-8) or pleasure vs. pain (1-2 vs. 3-4)? Also does one "oppose"" you more if they actively seek that which is not of interest you or if they place the information upside down? Eg. Does an intj irritate an isfp more or does an esfp irritate an isfp more? One lacks any sort of of common ground (1-2 by 6-5 [intj]) the other uses their functional preferences in the other direction. In visual terms:

    [img][/img]

    or

    [img][/img].

    It is obvious that you could overlay them all and average them in different ways but unfortunately in areas such as this PEOPLE MIMIC THE MODEL (once they are aware of it) rather than trying to "find" their "true" interaction with other people (if such a state is).

    To solve such problems I suggest polarizing all aspects of the model against itself. As such:

    [img][/img]

    {i meant for that to be a cube btw}

    where the intersections of the model stand for certain values while the connections between intersections stand for interaction between those values.

    For example if 1 = Fe, 2 = Si, 3 = Ni, and 4 = Te

    then [1,2,4,3] = esfj, [2,1,3,4] = isfp, [1,3,4,2] = enfj, etc etc. In other words the informational flow for an esfj would be a 1 > 2 > 4 > 3.

    Now let us see the sum of the interactions that our language base will allow. For that let us place the functions in any position that we choose until we arrive at a formulation that closely approximates our actual behavior.

    In the above example I juxtaposed consciousness with unconsciousness in model a (JePi/PiJe = functions 1-4 while 5-8 were left blank but which will now represent JiPe/PeJi). Let us have 5-8 be Ti Ne Se Fi.

    In that scenario:

    left/right = consciousness/unconsciousness
    top/bottom = beta/delta
    front/back = alpha/gamma
    3-5-6-4/7-1-2-8 = NT/SF
    5-4-1-8/6-3-2-7 = J/P

    etc etc

    Note that you can order the dimensions in any manner that you wish such as classic Jung:

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    Default Interesting

    It is all very interesting. I did not see your theory. If you would put it into article section, then I probably would. We both are talking about the changes within the type. I talk in a more general terms and Pedro-The -Lion in a systemic, structural way. Somewher our thoughts may cross and somewhere they may differ - I do not see it as a problem, |I will need time to grasp the whole idea in detail of the Pedro's theory anyway.

    What is good that we realize the need of a better concept/understanding about the changes within the psychic structure as if we look at it from different perspectives. I am in particular interested at the moment in changes over time. ther is a lot of common sense facts which can be interpreted with the help of the socionic thoery and the knowldege about function. I will be writng my thoughts in a rather general terms as I naturally lack the exactnes and perfection of abstract logical thought . I am driven from the knowldege about people , patterns, common sense, intuitive knowledge which already exists and i have observed, then I use my weackest function to analyse it and produce some sort of theoretical explanation by using my Role function . At the moment I am focused on the role of the role/third function and I hope soon the second part of my article will appear.

    By the way we need to clarify what we call as the third or fourth function, because it can be mixed up. Shall we name it as it is in the model A, for ISFJ Fi -1, Se- 2, Ne - 4 and Ti -3 ?

    @Male21 : My ex ENTJ was real tired of me talking about psychology and staff . I don't say INTJ hubby is not tired, but he seems to be more tolerant in general, he understands me because he is pretty much the same - absorbed in his thinking and work. My ex ENTJ did really want to see me different, dynamic, more cheerful, more active....so I doubt that socionic's intertype relationships may be relaevant to this sort of prediction? On the other hand it may be some sense in that. Gamma quadra may be more positive to change and dynamics and could be more positive in response. It will depend though on how balanced the person is,
    at what developmental level he is at the moment, personal experiences, lyfe history... |I don't think rmcnew would like it... although I believe he belongs to Gamma.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Default Re: Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I will need time to grasp the whole idea in detail of the Pedro's theory anyway.
    the main point is quite easy. i think type can be interpolated along any axis of delineation (ie i/e j/p nt/sf etc etc etc) and bajillions of others that have not been pointed out yet. also i think the "this vs. that" type delineations are quite limited and non-contrary interaction hierarchies must be constructed to explain phenomena such as "getting used to" negative stimuli so that it no longer affects you as it once did. for example the whole "T suppresses F" mentality found in jung i find completely false. expansion of areas of interest seem to stimulate growth all around rather than stifle it.

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    Default Re: Compatibility- my perception

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    1. I believe that for the "perfect" compatibility, Entroversion/Extraversion dimension is not that important and can be compensated by a second strong function.
    From my experience introverted and extroverted people fits perfect. Of course, both partners can be intro- or extraverted, but a heterogeneous relationship is much better. The second important dimension is F/T. They also fits perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    The question is what introverted types can easily appear/play extraverts and what extraverted types can appear as introverts?
    An dominating irrational function causes that the person feels and act different from the dispositioned trait. For example an INTj always feels and behave like an introverted and an INTp often feels and appear extraverted although he is introverted. See also http://www.geocities.com/tommylove9000/groups.html (the last table). => J/P bias
    "Wenn der Deutsche in einen Satz taucht, dann hat man ihn die längste Zeit gesehen, bis er auf der anderen Seite des Ozeans wieder auftaucht mit seinem Verb im Mund." - Mark Twain

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    Default Time

    I do agree.
    The progress of thought goes from something simple to more complex structures. It also depends on how you put it in words. If Young was INTJ or rational type it is quite normal for rationals to talk in statements like that: Ti supressess Fe. It is strait forward and judging. If we shall find different words it will sound different at the end. The same with socionics, model A is simple and not that difficult to understand compare to math or exact science. It is time, however, critically to review the theory in order to adjust it to reality, to make it more flexible.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Extraversion and introversion

    I just has explained on another thread this about INTP and INTJ. Irrationality and rationality is something which you defiently need to take into account when you talk about compatibility but not extraversion and introversion. I believe that some introverted types (e.g.ISFP, ISFJ) can easily play extraverts and can be compatible to the types who are introverted and do not have this ability. But you can not switch yoursefl from being rational to irrational ...or I would rather say you can adjust yourself to more rational or irrational environment but not without an effort. On the other hand it will be more difficult to do "edge or polar" types (see my article on irrationality), for rational logical types and for irrational feeling types this adjustment will be the hardest, but not for rational feelers (e.g ISFJ) or irrational thinkers (e.g INTP)

    but not on the large scale For example, you said about extraversion of INTP and introversion of INTJ. Shall we assume that if it is true it should be reflected somewhere in the interactons of functions and in behavour. That it simple: INTPs like to debate for the sake of debate - it makes fun for them, they feel they can predict somehow what you will say next, they will get you into logical trap and show you how, softly saying, illogically you reason! INTJ will not get involved into the "waste time" debate and the answer to the question "why?" is "clearly" hidden in his Id block where Ni is about time "dont waste it!" and " be or do something constructive!". The Id block of INTP is the opposite: abstract introverted thinking and analysing . INTP are loose or irrational in
    this sence, they are not bothered about time wasting and they will indulge themselves in debates without counshiesly knowing why they actually enjoy it. INTJ will only know that he does not enjoy lengthy debates without being fully conshiously aware of the mechanism of interaction of functions.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default School of Associative Socionics: Theory of personality development Parts 1,2

    This is just the copy of my article from the "General discussion" forum.


    People learn their abilities, strong points and weaknesses through their living experiences and interactions.
    Many different influences impact on feelings and thinking and the person tries to make sense of them and is searching for his/her identity. This line of the development can be associated with Model A and is responsible for “vertical” line of development or identity line: from top to the bottom; strong blocks to weaker blocks.
    For example: INTJ and the blocks as they known in socionics:

    Ti Ne - Ego - I know
    Se Fi - Superego - I can
    Si Fe - Superid -I want
    Te Ni - Id - I need

    The development of the blocks could be from Ego to Superego:

    - from what I know Ti and able to do Ne well to the development of the potential knowledge Fi and abilities Se.


    From Id to Superid: - what I need is what I want.

    This is a very general direction and more detailed consideration can be given to interactions of function ine every block.

    Horizontal line of development or balancing line can be explained with “butterfly model” of dimensions.

    For INTJ:

    Ti…………l………..Te
    Ne…………l ……….Ni
    Se…………l………..Si
    Fi………….l………..Fe

    The whole idea of balancing on dimensions is simple: to be a happy person you need to be balanced. We can not be balanced on all functions with the same degree of strength due to the inherited abilities of psychic structure. That is why the need for the support/balance is more experienced on some dimensions than on the others.

    According to socionic intertype relationships theory people need support on their suggestive functions which are in then Superid block. So for INTJ the dual would be FeSi. ( This works on the not conscious levels. This levels hide the secrets of many odd behaviours which people can not yet explain and I hope we hsall get into it later. ) This is the major principle of duality in socionics and I would argue that this is a not a mistake but an obvious limitation to the socionic theory of intertype relationships. I discussed it in the article: Development of the psyche and intertype relationships

    The principle of duality is based on the position that the functions located in Superid are actually the most weakest within the psychic structure in a way the fourth function is the weakest point of personality. Between the blocks Superid is the weakest one, but does it mean that we all need a dual to support us on the functions located in Superid?
    Does it mean that we all follow exactly the same degree and location of our needs?

    How about a pair of socks as a gift for a Christmas present? If your socks have got holes and you have not got ability to repair and no money to buy them - surely you should be happy with socks to keep you warm through your life.

    I would suggest that the need of balance is more experienced on the dimensions of competitive knowledge which is associated with the first two functions: base and creative. This two functions which we use the most in our conscious life. We may be not aware of the need to balance them as it is hidden in our Id block … but it is what suppose to make us happier. This qualities are within us and await their on time when the become a part of our conscious life.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Theory of personality development, Part 2

    This part of my article is for insane only . It does not bring more light on the model B (butterfly). Here I would like to talk about the blocks and their impact on the development of personality.

    Part 2. Revelations


    Before I start to write some of my recent thoughts I would like to say that I dedicate my work to the positive power of Life, Guidance, and Love which can be found within us and all around and this is the only power I serve.

    The Id represents a positive power of Life, it rules an animal world, is an irrational force and is located in unconscious. The Id can be conflicting with the Ego at times (e.g. teenage rebellion) and express itself in unusual harmless behaviour like: risk taking, swinging club at later age, clothing (e.g. rubber clothes of “happy hedonists” or “metal ” or “vampire” style) and etc. The outward expression of Id is a search or confirmation of chosen Identity. It can be a temporarily expression, how long - depends on the person and his path of development. I associate the Id with Life.

    The power struggle between the Ego and the ID can be compared to the power struggle between the base (1) and the role function (3) function (e.g. for INTJ: Ti and Fi). Ego represents conscious and is more powerful but Id has got a huge potential and is able to compete. This is a healthy competition which brings relief, relaxation and enjoyment to life like the water to the dry soil.

    The Superego represents conscience is located in conscious and can be hard to take. I associate the Superego with Guidance. It is a direction for growth and maturity. The door to your soul. It is a rational part.

    The Superid is a sleepy monster, the window for demonic powers, the weakest point of your psychic structure and thus, the home for fears, worries and destructive powers, death. This part is totally opposite to Superego, it is irrational force. I am talking here about self harm, violence towards others and intent to destroy.

    The Ego is your conscious, neither good or bad, reflective and rational part of psychic structure which represents autonomy or free will and is a gift of Life.


    I argue that the relationship between Ego and Id is harmless and it’s temporarily tension is harmless in nature. The Superid is to blame for harmful, destructive or criminal behaviour either to yourself or to others. The pressure on Superid is intolerable and can result in psychological sickness. I am not talking here about mental illness but the pressure on the Superid can be a trigger if prolonged. For example, INTJ explode when there is a lot of negative Fe which puts pressure in turn on his weak Si. INTJ can be violent in this circumstances. Did he mean it or wanted to be violent? No, it is an irrational reaction.

    Some types can express the destructive force towards others like INTJ and some will go and cut themselves. Which types doing what? The answer for you to find. May be it is hidden somewhere in Reinin’s dichotomies or may be it is a dichotomy in itself? I would assume it is connected to your base function one way or the other. What are you darkest fears about - ask yourself!

    The mechanism is simple. Once you punched somebody or cut yourself, it feels like a relief and it is rewarding in itself, you don’t need to look hard for excuses anymore. It becomes addiction and works on irrational, not conscious level.


    The Id and Superid , both needs to express themselves but in a different direction. The Id is about being different and not ashamed of it. The Superid also about acceptance of you darker part but is not for others to see. People can live double lifes, being a family man and killing prostitutes, or being a “decent” citizen and having sex with children somewhere in Thailand.

    The most interesting part is about location in the brain or how exorcism works.

    I hope you watched the recent film based on true story about the demonic possession of Emily Rose. This film rung the bell for me. For example, the lawyer who found a gold pendant with her initials on the path. The gold is God’s metal, finding it or getting as a bargain/present or inheritance of it - can be considered as blessing or a gift.

    The exorcism represents a direct intervention of collective Superego or God’s power onto the person’s Superid which is possessed by demons. In the film it has been stated that the exorcism failed due to the fact that the girl was on drug GAMBUTROL which made the girl unable to teke in the spiritual treatment. The drug has been described by a doctor and it for treatment of epileptics. The doctor said that the test has shown the activity in the left temporal lobe similar to those who suffer from epileptic seizures and that is why the drug has been prescribed.

    Now, we can explain it from the point of the blocks. Ego is neutral and reflective, it can observe and register what happens to the person. Emily rose was in her mind and knew that she is possessed/mad, so she was not really suffering from psychosis or other mental illness. She perceived her state as possession and was choosing by her free will to stay in life, not to undergo another exorcism and even have chosen the fhraises of the bibles to be carved on her gravestone.

    Her Ego was intact but her free will which we associate with the Ego did not work.
    She tried to fight the devil within herself, she wanted to eat and could not. Possibly because the Id, the positive irrational force was blocked, the instincts which drive life were switched off and thus could not support the Ego to exercise the free will.

    In the film, the witness, the academic who conducted the research around the world and wrote books about his phenomenon, stated that the medical treatment is the direct cause of death. How does it work and why?

    If the Id was blocked, all what was left is her Superego. However, the Superego has to be clear, not to be seductive. How easy you can reach the person who has drunk an alcohol? I am not sure how Gambutrol works but it surely did the job not in the girl’s favour. Emily also stated that she felt that the demonic forces got into possession of her (mind?) when she was in the Hospital. That means the first appearance of demonic experiences scared her but her free will was inspired to fight.

    I do not know how brains or gambutrol works but the location of the problem was somewhere in the left temporal lobe. If you know anything about it or have some ideas to share, please let me know.


    Please, feel free to say what you think! Any ideas what type could be Emily Rose?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default School of Associative socionics: Ego split, Part 3

    Ego split and brain functioning

    This article is aimed to describe the Ego block in more detail.

    It seems to me that the Ego consists of two parts: Reflective Self (RS) and Executive Self (ES).
    Both parts are conscious and therefore rational but serve different purpose. In a normal/psychologically healthy person two Selfs work together in harmony, so that the person knows what he/she is doing. The RS is registering everything what happens “inside and outside” and is connected to the memory, possibly long term memory and autobiographical memory. I assume that RS is that part of self which remains after the death. In mentally healthy individuals this part remains intact. In mentally ill people, it must be damaged.

    ES represents a free will, makes decision and is responsible for fulfilment of the actions. This part is responsible for the body functioning and may be lost with the end of life. I believe that in psychologically sick/disturbed or simply addicted individuals, there is a problem with ES. That is why they understand what they are doing but have got no power over their ES.

    How does it happen that ES becomes weakened? Is it possible that people will give away their free will for free?
    Well, everybody knows that there are some people who likes to play victims; people who likes playing babies and to be looked after; or slaves in sexual games. Some people, just need a cuddle and a kiss to feel secure. Hey, it is simply a human thing to desire! Free will is not just to do what I want - it is also a burden of responsibility. Therefore, we can assume that free will has got a connection to the Superid block and Superego block. When we are tired of the responsibility we can moan and whinge and do something what we should not really do. This is the way to sell out your souls to Devil if you will not stop at the right time. On the other hand, Superego is your conscience, is always within you or around you - it is up to you to follow or not. I guess, there must be something there to help you back on track - the Id, the wish to be, look around, relax and take it easy, there are always things to enjoy in life, find what works for you and make it last.

    Exorcism does not happen everyday day, though it is an example of intact RS and sick ES due to the demonic possession. But what about hypnotic state when your RS is blocked and your ES is possessed by a hypnotist? Or those people who are walking in their dreams? They also do not remember anything. I am confident that there are hidden centres of brain studying like Sheila Institute in Germany or the like. I was puzzled about the death of the French Jewish young man who went on the conference to Germany to Sheila Institute (not sure if I wrote the name right) and ended up throwing himself under the cars somewhere on themotorway in the early morning hours. He managed to make a phone call to his mum and girlfriend. He was scares to see people with wires attached to their heads, he was sorry to be there and just wanted out. Was he hypnotised or treated with some kind of medication?

    As for me, I experienced the working of my RS during a sleep. I could register how I actually fall into sleep, what happens before and after that. I was in a different world of my imagination where the pictures were blurred and not quite the way they are in reality and was actually registering what I saw and all unusual sensations. I did have power to go back, to exercise my ES. Long time before I had a scary dream which I or my RS perceived as reality : I also felt the duvet coming of from my bed, exactly like in the film about Emily Rose but at that time I did not feel as if I could exercise my ES. I had a few similar dreams and I realized that demons operate by fear. When you scared - you are in a trap, if you not scared - they have no power on you. What the demons fear - is Love. Where Love is there is no place for fear. The funny thing is that Lucifer or Devil does not love himself, he just feeds on hate, I suppose.

    The exorcism - the act of love, when those who love exercise their free will to save the person possessed. In Emily's case Love was helpless, Love as a rational power Ti applied against irrational power of emotions Fe. What role exactly mind plays? At the moment of exorcism her ES was actually not hers but Demon’s one. Was exorcism directed at her mind as if she was experiencing a living nightmare with the aim to wake her up? Where is that centre of turning back, conscious ES within the brain?

    It has been stated in the film that she may have bee sensitive to supernatural phenomena or in other words she had an extra sensitive Ego and she was very bright girl at the same time. What type could she be: ENTJ? ENTP?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default School of Associative Socionics: TIA-The theory if the Development of Intertype Abilities

    “And actually, if we recall Aushra‘s type, we observe a huge paradox. Shy did not suppose to do the discoveries in the field of human interrelations and did not suppose to lay the foundation for socionics. She did not suppose to do it, but she did it.”

    (Bijou, http://www.socioforum.ru/viewtopic.php?t=6271)


    I would like to invite you to think about the personal development within the limits of a type. Where are the limits of what we can and can not do and what surprise may wait for us if we pursue our own interests and disregard the limitations of our weak functions.

    You know the Theory of dimensionalities devised by Bukalov and further developed by Ermak. The theory suggests that we can fill in our functions due to experience but we can not change the qualities of parameters of the functions. That means, one way or the other it is possible to type the person on the basis of the number of dimensionalities of his functions.

    I argue that it is possible to develop the functions and blocks to the extent that we shall acquire the abilities of other types due the ability of the psyche to adapt to the changing environment ( Piaget 1977, aquilibriation and two sub- processes: assimilation and accomodation) and also due to the dynamic processes within the psychic structure (such as the need for balancing the psychic states).
    http://books.google.com/books?id=ecU...eV2iA#PPA31,M1.

    I support the idea that it is possible and necessary to develop yourself in many different ways to achieve a harmony within yourself and very often it is exactly what we observe in life. I have got my own vision of how it may happen from the point of socionics’ theory. However, not everything is clear for me yet. At the moment I believe that the psychic structure consists of the shape (which can relate to the informational metabolism and is more rigid structure) and the content (which is about the flow of psychic energies- more flexible structure).


    Part 1

    I consider the process of the development from the point of the Butterfly model which suggests that there are 4 different psychic energies associated with the 4 psychic blocks (Ego, Superego, Id and Superid). The development of the psyche occurs due to the dynamic processes of balancing between the 4 blocks which create between themselves 6 psychic dichotomies or oppositions ( Ego- Superego, Ego - Superid, Ego - Id, Id- Superego, Superego- Superid and Id - Superid where Ego - Superid and Id- Superego are leading dynamic and static oppositions).


    Imbalance between the 4 psychic powers is inborn like a sin and it is a reason for emotional conflicts which bring perfection to our soul.
    While I was typing people I noticed that the same types can differ on the oppositions. I assume that psychic oppositions are related to the 4 temperaments (sanguine, melancholic, choleric and phlegmatic). However, they can also change due to the prolonged interaction of different factors (e.g. changes in the environment). There should be correspondence between the type and the suggested opposition if the person is psychologically healthy. However, if an introvert chooses an extraverted opposition that may indicate the contradiction between the real self and the desirable self. Such contradictions could be one of the reasons why the person finds it difficult to determine his/her type.

    The opposition shows the direction of the development of the psychic structure and namely what intertype qualities and abilities are in the process of balancing. Some people have only one very clear opposition and the others may have two oppositions working at the same time. Similar to what we encounter in typing people: some people have got a very prominent type and the others stuck between the two similar types.

    For example, if the person has the opposition Ego - Superid and is an Ego type (rational extravert) that means that the Ego block is a dominant one and I is balanced by the block Superid (irrational introversion). This also means that the person develops the qualities of the Superid types - irrational introverts.

    In the Model B I associate not only temperaments with blocks but also quadras with blocks: Alfa - Id; Beta -Ego; Gamma- Superego and Delta - Superid. If we consider the value system of the person who has the opposition Ego- Superid, it will be associated with the value systems of 2 quadras: Beta and Delta.

    On the basis of the dynamic opposition it is possible to say which block is dominant and what is the direction of the development the person has. Once the type is determined it is possible to suggest what intertype qualities the person is working on at the moment.

    The development of intertype abilities can be explained through scale dichotomies and the tendency of adaptation and balancing as a natural reaction. People balance themselves on rationality-irrationality, extroversion-introversion as well on other dichotomies.

    It doers not mean necessarily that the person is changing his type for another one. He/she learns to think and to feel differently in order to see the situation from the perspective of another person/type. The development of intertype abilities will improve the understanding among the people of different types and will contribute to the development of creativity and self-expression. If we compare the type with any colour, for example, red, then the more diverse are the shades of red the more flexible is the psyche and so the person is more harmonious, adequate in his/her behaviour and attitude.

    According to Talanov, psychological type can have a subtype of any of the 16th types. I understand it as there is no limits of what masks you can wear by maintaining your type. It may be true and hopefully the future investigations will prove or disprove this assumption.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Part 2

    On the basis of my model I have my own hypotheses on how the development of the intertype abilities could be fulfilled. I assume, that the direction would be as follows:

    1 Superego block
    I call this block as the block of ambitions and “conscious” values. To what degree the values of the Superego block are realized by the person - this is a different matter. However, due to the tendency of the psyche to self-balancing, rational types will experience the drive to develop themselves either on logics (for ethical types) or for ethics (for logical types). And so irrational types will develop either on intuition
    (sensorial types) or sensorics (for intuitive types).

    2. Id Block

    This block is responsible for subconscious impulses and tendencies. The development of the Id functions is necessary for the drive to live and joy of life and feelings of happiness. Due to the location of the Id (as well as Superid) in subconscious, the person does not feel the urgency to work out the Id functions and may not realise the need to develop the subconsious blocks all in all. Or even if he does feel and realise the deficiency in functioning, the person may not know what needs to be done to get him where he wants to. The development of the Id block will make the person to feel more happier in and self-sufficient.

    3. Superid Block

    This block contains the functions of “security”. These functions are the weakest in the psyche and therefore the help on this block is more desirable and needed from the outside. I believe, that these functions are the least possible to develop compared to the functions of the other blocks. The reason lays in the limitation of self-sufficiency as the person needs to be dependent on the socion. This phenomenon can be also explained through the spiritual law described by Dan Millman in his book «The life you were born to live”.


    The foundation for my theory was layed by the socionist Tatjana Jakubovskaja, who described the swastika with the reference to socionic theory. Jakubovskaja described the direction of the moving swastikas and I directed them towards each other and made it as the basis for my theory calling it as a motion of conflicting psychic energies towards each other. The conflict provides the psyche with the imbalance and the drive to balance itself on the different levels (type-level, Group level, quadra - level and etc.).The picture shows how the moment when the “conflicting couples” meet with each other - the moment of meeting together the two swastikas.

    I compare the processes of the development of intertype abilities with those described previously by Piaget (1977): equilibration, assimilation, accommodation. As you know Piaget studied intellectual development of children and developed the theory of intellectual development. Kohlberg (1984) developed the theory of moral development using the laws of the informational metabolism described by Piaget: equilibration, assimilation, accommodation.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Part 3

    I would like to consider the possible direction of the development between the 2 “conflicting” couples: ENTP-ISFP and ENTJ- ISFJ. The functions balance each other due the free movement on the scale of a dichotomy: Ni -Ne and Ti-Te (for ENTP and ENTJ) or Fi-Fe and Se-Si (for ISFJ and ISFP) .

    The development of the Id block

    ENTP
    The information is moving in the direction from Ni to Ne and Ti toTe. ENTP will develop the qualities of ENTJ , because the Id blok of an ENTP has got the functions of the Ego block of an ENTJ. The ENTJ will develop in the same way the qualities of an ENTP. The theory of dimensionalities suggest that Ego and Id are the strongest blocks in the psyche. My theory suggests that Id block needs to be developed to its full potential or in the other words - it needs to be consciously realised as valuable for the psyche, rather than to be taken for granted or ignored.

    This shift to the Id functions will make both types stronger on their Ego block and therefore it will be easier for them to succeed, because the Ego will be supported by Id.
    What evidence do we possibly have to demonstrate this phenomenon in real life?
    According to the description of the ENTP type, they are known for creating new theories. Searchers and Inventors. However, sooner or later they will be interested to put their theories into practice and they become interested in the applied logics by creating a new systems (Te). It can be a new school of knowledge, training and etc. To make something practical ENTP will need to know how the new system will develop in time and what will be the results (Ni).

    In a similar way ENTJ will automatically collect information of Ti while working on Te and the collected knowledge will organize itself into patterns which may result in new theories and ideas. Therefore, TIA suggests that it is normal to expect the production of new theories from an ENTJ type person on the one hand and the work directed into practice from ENTPs on the other hand.

    Due to the location of the Id functions in subconscious block, the development of the Id functions is experienced as fun, children’s creativity and will result in letting the sleeping energy of Id free. On the opposite, working just with the functions of the Ego block the person will feel its limitations and subconsciously will strive for the support from elsewhere. The Ego without support of the Id is experienced as a heavy overload.


    The development of the Superego block

    Next we can consider the development of the ENTPs and ENTJs towards the Superego block. I wrote earlier that the development of the Id function are not realised consciously and therefore the person does not experience the conscious need to develop his/her Id block. Sooner or later he is forced to do so in order to survive and to off load the Ego block.

    When we compare the needs of the development from Superego and Id blocks, we notice that the person realize clearly the demands put forward from Superego, because it is located in the conscious block and the need for the development of the Superego block can not be ignored. This means the Superego block shows to the person the direction for his/her development. The development of Superego functions is experienced as a necessity. This results in the ENTP getting into the ISFJs shoes. ENTPs become interested in the world of morality and people’s relationships (Aushra), they may feel the need to serve people for the higher purpose (Asama Ben Laden or Comandante Che Guevara).

    ISFJ, on the opposite, has a diverse and rich experience of relationships. Analysing the relationships and his/her feelings an ISFJ comes to notice the patterns, which lead to conclusions and as a result to new theories. ISFJ develops the perceptions of the ENTP in the world of ethics and create ethical theories.

    This theory is a rather general hypothesis of the development of intertype abilities.
    The same principle (described above) can be applied to any of the other types. The conscious block Ego is in need for help from subconscious Id (on the model Ego is on the left and Id is opposite, on the right). The subconscious Superid block is in need for help from the conscious block Superego (on the model Superid is bottom right and Superego is on the opposite bottom left).

    The development of the Ego block

    The Ego block develops during the teenage years and continues into young adulthood as described in the Butterfly model.
    The TIA suggests that the development of this block continues as a result of the development of the other blocks in the psyche, thease are mainly blocks Id and Superego.

    The block Ego reacts first of all on the demands of the development of the block Superego, because it is a conscious block. The need for the development on other blocks is not consciously realised because Id and Superid are in subconscious.

    The theory suggests that while we develop our block Superego we come to realise our mission in life and our higher purpose. We achieve the balance of personality as we acquire the qualities of our conflictors. That also means that we acquire the balance of the values of the quadras. Not only we develop the abilities of the conflictor but also take on board the values of his/her quadra: Alfa - Gamma and Beta- Delta.

    Part 4: Shortcomings of the theory:

    1. Theory does not describe the development on the level of functions - within the block.

    For example, it is possible to suggest that the balancing (between rationality - irrationality and extraversion- introversion) occurs within each block. The more visible will be the development within the Ego block where the types resemble their mirror types: ENTJ -INTP, ISFJ-ESFP.

    At the moment I think that the balancing within one block (e.g.Ego block) is age related, because the creative function is overloaded in the childhood. If we shall observe our children we may notice that they resemble more their mirror types rather then their actual types. Although socionic theory suggests that the psychological type is inborn, I believe, it may be not settled in childhood due to the childhood being an extraverted and creative stage in the development of personality. ENTP child may show the characteristics of an INTJ type, and INTJ child may resemble an ENTP type.

    However, the opposite opinion could be also true and also could be age related: due to the differences in the strongest functions between the mirror types, it will be difficult “slide” simultaneously and quick between the 2 dichotomies (Ne-Ni and Ti -Te).

    If we shall assume that at a certain age the informational metablolism settles to its limits of a particular type, then we could assume that there will be no balancing within the block but rather balancing between the blocks as described by the TIA.

    That means while maintaining the type of informational metabolism we continue to develop on a different level - the intertype level of development.


    2. The TIA is based on the movement of the swastikas towards each other and this is why the types develop and acquire the qualities of the conflicting types. The direction of the movement of swastikas also determines the types we will resemble due to the balancing.
    For example, ENTP will resemble an ENTJ and an ENTJ will resemble an ENTP.

    However, if we suggest that the direction of the swastikas will change, then we shall get a different direction of resemblance between the types: ENTP - INTP on the balancing between blocks Ego- Id; and the development of the Superego type qualities rather than the Conflictor’s qualities: ENTP- ESFP rather than ENTP - ISFJ on the balancing Ego-Superego.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Actually this is all making a lot of sense in the context of subconscious types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Actually this is all making a lot of sense in the context of subconscious types.
    爜獭皷禧

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