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Thread: Contrasting the quadras

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    Default Contrasting the quadras

    So I was just thinking about how SF differs from NT and how ST differs from NF, not really analyzing specific functions but rather the clubs as a whole, and I noticed that the SF/NT comparison seemed to reflect a difference in attitudes (SFs being warm, people-oriented; NTs being cool, detached, theoretical) while the ST/NF comparison reflected a difference in methods (like the difference between practicality and idealism). And then I related this idea to the quadras:

    Alpha/Gamma: What should we be achieving?
    Beta/Delta: How should we be achieving it?

    Or I guess this could be expressed like

    Alpha/Gamma: will
    Beta/Delta: way

    or

    Alpha/Gamma: end?
    Beta/Delta: means?

    Well, I think they're all fairly accurate and concise ways of explaining the difference between democracy and autocracy...anyone care to disagree? Is this common knowledge? Nonsensical crap? (I can't tell. It's the weak Te I think.)
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    That makes sense in a way. I think opposing quadras have a lot of similarities (like the ones you've expressed), except that they go about it in ways that fundamentally oppose each other...

    It doesn't really create animosity, but it creates a lot of misunderstanding!

    But we already know that

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    Okay. Well I was pondering some more on the quadras today and their social roles instead of just thinking about behavioral characteristics and here's what I came up with:

    Alpha: conservative
    Beta: reformative
    Gamma: reformative
    Delta: conservative

    It's seems odd to call the Alpha quadra "conservative," especially with those ENTps in there, but then again, while the NTs come up with brilliant ideas (What should we be achieving?), Beta actually tries to implement the ideas into reality (How should we be achieving it?).

    Also, it seems that Gammas and Deltas are more socially-oriented while Alphas and Betas are more ego-asserting.

    So to tie this all together:

    Alphas are ego-asserting conservatives who question what they should be achieving.
    Betas are ego-asserting reformists who question how they should be achieving things.
    Gammas are socially-oriented reformists who question what we should be achieving.
    Deltas are socially-oriented conservatives who question how we should be achieving things.

    Does this make sense?
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Default Re: Contrasting the quadras

    =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    However, I really disagree with the theroy of: Alpha creates ideas, passes them to Beta, Gamma takes over, Delta perfects, etc., etc. It is way too goofy and "new age", and I don't think it is applicable to anything in real life. Save for a few isolated incidents.
    I think that comes from trying to serialize a parallel phenomenon. If we assume that Alpha creates more new ideas in a given lapse of time than any other quadra, Beta is the most receptive of new trends, Gamma is slower than Alpha and thus reduced to mainly criticism and reform, and Delta is about concretizing an idea (which I think is more accurate of their spirit than "perfecting"), then one can see how each quadra is somewhat forced to follow a linear pattern. However, it's all parallel; e.g. Delta will attempt to concretize an Alpha idea immediately, but it won't get far, considering that an Alpha idea lacks adequate information to allow accurate perfectioning. On the large scale, one would see these massive parallel processes forming a general serial path, following the A->B->G->D formula. However, I'm sure there are other possible paths.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Yeah, but doesn't it seem silly to overgeneralize an incomplete idea, Cone?

    I dunno, I could be wrong.
    You've picked a type Transigent? Our one and only resident estj! Cool. :-)
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    Somehow, that both makes sense and nonsense at the same time.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.
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    I mean, it would explain your profuseness and breadth of knowledge. But you describe yourself as being quite contrarian and highly independent. While that could be possible for an ESTj, the common view of ESTjs is that they are much more interested in finding the straightest path to a goal, so it wouldn't make sense for them to want to do things differently than everyone else, at least as a core value.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.
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    It makes sense to me. Alpha generates, Beta processes, Gamma impliments, and Delta utilizes.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Edited for gayness.
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    LOL NO
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I think of IM in quadras like this, the producer creates some object that has a number of related functional components relative to the creator's functional development. So for example entp thought is overwhelmingly . The thought goes out from it's producer to those capable of metabolizing it's products. So Entp thought would go to entps, intjs/enfps, and infjs primarily (for ) then intjs, entps/istjs, and estps second and so on. So it is not alpha, beta, gamma, delta, it is delta/alpha (Ne generates a lot of shit) and beta/gamma (Se distributes... I don't know how to phrase this... learned social behavior? like when you hear someone use slang and you perpetuate it) and it spreads out from there.

    so it goes

    alpha -> beta/delta -> gamma

    delta -> alpha/gamma -> beta

    etc etc

    Depending on what the im element is and the functional development of those around the direction of transfer can vary widely.

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Isn't that actually illusionary rather than semidual for rational types like you guys?
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

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    @Pedro: While I would possibly agree with your flow-of-information diagrams, I'm not sure I agree with the functions being related to methods of information processing. I wouldn't think of an Ne idea as being not understandable by the Gamma quadra or an Ni idea the same way for the Alphas, but rather that the values that encompass those ideas work against the opposing quadras. So the opposing quadra receives the idea last, because it perceives it as being currently unimportant as opposed to ideas from adjacent quadras. Or to isolate my point:

    I believe the functions are about values, not methods of information processing.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.
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    You mean "quasi-copying" you.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    i'll draw a diagram and post it later

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    So the opposing quadra receives the idea last, because it perceives it as being currently unimportant as opposed to ideas from adjacent quadras.
    I used to think this but now I just think of them as being received in a mediated format. I don't know about values... I think of them as not necessarily in opposition to one another. Or rather the oppositional quality is circumstantial rather than inherent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I don't know about values... I think of them as not necessarily in opposition to one another. Or rather the oppositional quality is circumstantial rather than inherent.
    I think someone stated before that opposing quadras are very similar in their outlooks and values, and I am inclined to agree with both that person and you. Perhaps opposition only occurs when two opposing quadras work together on the same project? Large-scale values may be identical, but individual values are at direct opposition. I wonder if, hypothetically, the Alpha quadra were to not exist, would Gamma work identically to them? And likewise with Beta and Delta?

    And what do you mean specifically by a "mediated format"?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tempus
    So to tie this all together:

    Alphas are ego-asserting conservatives who question what they should be achieving.
    Betas are ego-asserting reformists who question how they should be achieving things.
    Gammas are socially-oriented reformists who question what we should be achieving.
    Deltas are socially-oriented conservatives who question how we should be achieving things.

    I agree roughly, though I think it's difficult to make generalizations and to separate strictly one quadra from another, according to whatever parameters you'd take in account. As a general idea, the quadras interrelate and mix gradually, type by type, so it's a continuum rather then a brusque disruption.


    It's seems odd to call the Alpha quadra "conservative," especially with those ENTps in there, but then again, while the NTs come up with brilliant ideas (What should we be achieving?), Beta actually tries to implement the ideas into reality (How should we be achieving it?).
    Like yourself remarked here, indeed, actually a single quadra is split in two, so the generalization by quadra as awhole fails from the start.
    For example Alpha conservatives we could agree are the ISFps and ESFjs, Alpha reformists are INTjs and ENTps.
    The same with Gamma: conservatives are the ESFps and ISFjs, reformists are only the INTps and the ENTjs
    The same applies to all quadras

    And not only the reformist/conservative parameter, if we think we could find a lot of differencies amidst a quadra, whichever that is
    My point is generalizations by quadra is a bad idea. Only the common values are what keeps a quadra together

    Alpha values

    Beta values

    Gamma values :

    Delta values

    I'd rather agree with the clubs, the groups ST, SF, NT, NF and their associations, ST with pragmatism, SF with sociability, NT with rationalism, NF with idealism

    And even whitin these clubs we can notice a graduality (I hope such a word exists!), for example I think INTjs are rationals with a dose of idealism, while at the other end of the spectrum, the ENTjs are rationals but they are closer to pragmatism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    And what do you mean specifically by a "mediated format"?
    Like they receive it when they see it's effects. Sometimes this happens by reflection though. It is hard to accept and respond right away but if you give them more time to absorb it they will.

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    "See its effects..." Like when an adjacent quadra adopts the idea?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    More like when you see the positive effect it has on others.

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    What about adoption of an idea for critical purposes? Like, instead of seeing the positive results that it elicits, the quadra or individual sees its ineffectivity and opts to revise it. I think possibly this still falls under seeing its positive results, as an idea has to have potential in order to be taken seriously, for either purposes.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    "So Entp thought would go to entps, intjs/enfps, and infjs primarily (for ) then intjs, entps/istjs, and estps second and so on."

    Perhaps due to the repression of information, ENTp thought could take on a completely different pattern, maybe being encountered by ESTps before ENFps for instance. Anyway, I never really thought about analyzing quadra cycles in terms of distinct types. I've always looked at things in terms of specific functions. Oh well.

    "alpha -> beta/delta -> gamma

    delta -> alpha/gamma -> beta

    etc etc "

    This is correct although for the sake of clarity I must ask what "etc etc" implies. I would assume it means something along the lines of beta -> alpha/gamma -> delta...
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gugu_ baba
    I'd rather agree with the clubs, the groups ST, SF, NT, NF and their associations, ST with pragmatism, SF with sociability, NT with rationalism, NF with idealism
    I often wish someone would revise those labels... not just for the NF.

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    Well, I find the labels justifiable and it captures well the essence, ishy, but of course describing smth by one word can sometimes create contradictions. I do think it is a graduality involved, a mix of them can be found in types and that makes possible the circulation of information and, most importantly, the assimilation of it, just like Pedro described better than me.

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    @cone: you answered your own question

    Quote Originally Posted by tempus
    Anyway, I never really thought about analyzing quadra cycles in terms of distinct types. I've always looked at things in terms of specific functions.
    Look again because that is what I am doing . The rules are:

    *funtions 1, 3, 5, 7 take precedence over 2, 4, 6, 8 in a respective fashion

    *ego > id > super-ego > super-id

    of course there are other rules involved but I was just simplifying it to get the point across.

    Quote Originally Posted by tempus
    I would assume it means something along the lines of beta -> alpha/gamma -> delta...
    Yes you are correct but again it is not that broad that was just an oversimplification to demonstrate a point. For example imo if the above rules work Alpha would go to isfps last. Of course time spent interacting with the person etc etc would all play a role in this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion

    Yes you are correct but again it is not that broad that was just an oversimplification to demonstrate a point. For example imo if the above rules work Alpha would go to isfps last. Of course time spent interacting with the person etc etc would all play a role in this.
    Just a second, Pedro, why would the Alpha Ti would go to ISFps last? Wouldn't it be INTps (they have Ti as the 8th function)?

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    because they unknowlingly resist all encompassing structure. part of the reason they are able to do this is because they generate their own (again without realizing it). intps resist it knowingly so they inevitably stop denying it when they see the benefits.

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    hmm this is just what I think...

    Alpha's views on:
    Other Alphas: People who make sense and don't aggravate me
    On Betas: Calm down and you might accomplish more
    On Gammas: I respect you but not always your methods
    On Deltas: Yeah, yeah, your wise beyond on your years...stop telling me what to do.

    Betas:
    View on other Betas: Weeeeeeee!!!!
    Alphas: god your annoying
    On Gammas: some of you are real party poopers and those that aren't I can easily fool
    On Deltas: I like a lot of your qualities and might even try to emulate some but must you be so intense.

    Gammas:
    View on other Gammas: Finally, others who can see the dangers of the dark side
    on Alphas: You make me a little curious but I still think I'm better
    On Betas: stop sabotaging me!
    On Deltas: You make me a little curious but I still think I'm better

    Deltas:
    View on other Deltas: Finally some wisdom here in a way that doesn't hurt my feelings
    on Alphas: I really like you but you don't get me
    On Betas: sigh
    On Gammas: You have potential if you just open your eyes.
    Polly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    because they unknowlingly resist all encompassing structure. part of the reason they are able to do this is because they generate their own (again without realizing it). intps resist it knowingly so they inevitably stop denying it when they see the benefits.
    ah, ok I think I understand, it's related with them having Te as polr, so they would create their own structure and at the same time would adopt a distrustful and eluding attitude of any exterior help. It only makes sense.

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    hmm this is just what I think...

    Alpha's views on:
    Other Alphas: People who make sense and don't aggravate me
    On Betas: Calm down and you might accomplish more
    On Gammas: I respect you but not always your methods
    On Deltas: Yeah, yeah, your wise beyond on your years...stop telling me what to do.

    Betas:
    View on other Betas: Weeeeeeee!!!!
    Alphas: god your annoying
    On Gammas: some of you are real party poopers and those that aren't I can easily fool
    On Deltas: I like a lot of your qualities and might even try to emulate some but must you be so intense.

    Gammas:
    View on other Gammas: Finally, others who can see the dangers of the dark side
    on Alphas: You make me a little curious but I still think I'm better
    On Betas: stop sabotaging me!
    On Deltas: You make me a little curious but I still think I'm better

    Deltas:
    View on other Deltas: Finally some wisdom here in a way that doesn't hurt my feelings
    on Alphas: I really like you but you don't get me
    On Betas: sigh
    On Gammas: You have potential if you just open your eyes.
    That's great!
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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