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Thread: describing irrationality vs rationality

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    Default describing irrationality vs. rationality

    How would you describe the difference in a succinct way, to someone who knows nothing about socionics? Like in one or two sentences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    How would you describe the difference in a succinct way, to someone who knows nothing about socionics? Like in one or two sentences.
    Rationals --> Planning, rules, certainty, purpose...
    Irrationals --> Improvise, uncertainty, let it go...
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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Another point of view: rationality vs irrationality



    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Rationals --> Planning, rules, certainty, purpose...
    Irrationals --> Improvise, uncertainty, let it go...
    okay, that's good!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I like planning and purpose, but not really rules
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    Rationals are inclined to principles and ethics first before even considering making any kind of perception.
    Irationals prefer look at situations from their own leverage point of view, before making any kind of judgement.

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    I don't actually know. This is probably going to sound horrible, but my concept of rationality/irrationality hasn't changed terribly since I looked at Meyers-Briggs stuff (in the Days Before Socionics). Basically, in the MB j/p thing, I could see what it was perhaps getting at and just adapted it to things I had actually noticed in life, though with some emphasis on how it made the difference overly distinct (like j=schedules; p=go with the flow). In other words it was already in my head before running into MB or Socionics, and that's what I adapted theories to rather than adapting to theories (but also trying to make sure I'm not butchering the theory itself along the way). Anyway, since M-B didn't make sense to me in a lot of ways, and I never took it very seriously, the j/p thing sort of flowed into a rational/irrational understanding, reconnecting various dots along the way and dropping some of the overly distinct black-and-white things it seemed to indicate. This is mostly because in my mind what had determined my understanding in the first place, was where I could actually apply it irl and then have a feeling about what it was getting at. And I still don't know how to explain it, because any attempt to makes it too black and white and removes context dependence from it, so without writing a treatise on it or something, I don't know if it works very well.

    But I do find that it's easy to point out in interactions themselves. (I'm mentioning this, because maybe it's easier to point it out in an interaction, because the other person probably feels some sort of "difference" or "sameness" intuitively themselves.) For instance, my sister and I often experience these sorts of rational/irrational conflicts, where from my point of view she's being too anal and nit-picky and particular, and from her point of view, I'm being too "go with the flow." We both recognize this when it arises, and it's mainly just acknowledged, and I still think of it as her "j-ness" and my "p-ness." There are of course other things that can create a similar feeling (which is why I would even need to write a treatise trying to describe this), for instance I percieve Fi and Ti as being the two IM elements that really produce this feeling. Sometimes Si in EJs as well. But it's possible for interaction with another irrational type to produce this feeling if they're focusing overly on Fi or Ti (it's just that when taking all interactions together with them over time, it won't be as constant or as prominent)... and it's also possible for interactions with an EJ to sometimes produce the feeling less when they're sort of flying along with their dynamic leading function (but again, over time considering all interactions, the feeling will be there as a prominent characteristic of interactions). Mainly the feeling is experienced in that everything has to be put into their order (whatever kind of order it is, how ever they are being "nitpicky"), and my more sporaticness where sometimes I care about it and sometimes I don't and it's completely "unreliable" and I can go either way really, and if it changes, I'll adapt with it as it's moving... this "leaf in the wind" nature doesn't conform to any consistent or ordered approach. And it works best with others who are equally sporatic, while hitting snags with people who are less so. And to reiterate, these snags can be hit with other irrational types sometimes, but it happens far less. I might imagine that they would be hit less with people in one's own quadra as well, etc. I'm afraid people might not understand what I'm trying to say, but oh well, I'm posting it anyway.

    *note, by "produce the feeling" I mean it as a subjective feeling I experience inside

    Another thing, and I'm not sure how related it is yet, is that I only like to go with what I feel like doing usually, so I rearrange everything constantly all the time, so that it is arranged by what I feel like or don't feel like doing... this I've noticed can sometimes concern more "rational" people because it can look like things aren't going to be accomplished at all... and there's also the cycle of periods on inaction, and then spurts of accomplishing something, etc. Anyway, but this alone cannot be taken as a sole determining factor (for instance, my ESE mother has no problem with this particular kind of sporaticness). I guess my point is that a whole lot of things need to be considered, and per the individual almost, and interactions.

    I think it's generally easy to feel the difference rather quickly, and I can especially notice it in Ijs. Ejs are perhaps more "tricky" as they can behave in ways that seem "irrational" because they're dynamic. Though with Ejs I'm often adverse to their steady, constant freight-train energy (not to say they all have that energy).
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-18-2009 at 06:17 PM.

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    Rationals are more likely to carefully plan things out, applying structure and acting to shape contexts; irrationals prefer to improvise as they go along, tailoring their re/actions as contexts arise and shift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    I was looking on the wiki about this, because I've been wondering about this dichotomy recently, and when talking about the Rational/Irrational divide between the information elements, there is something that says that Irrational elements deal with "raw, unfiltered information" and Rational elements deal with "interpreted information." the way I understand it now is: Rational types are mainly looking at the world through information that has been judged and "categorized" first, hence they have formed expectations and will come across as more stable, and even "rigid", since interpreted information is not as flexible as uninterpreted information ("this is the way it should be."). Irrational types are mainly looking at the world through "as is" information first, hence they have not formed expectations and will come across as more go with the flow and adaptable, even more unstable and unpredictable because unfiltered information has no "boundaries" or judgments placed upon it yet ("this is the way it is.")
    I can agree with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Another point of view: rationality vs irrationality



    Hey, when I look at the years I play chess, I think most of them are J, I can't even recalled a P player.

    Edit: oh actually there are 2 INTp player.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I know about three people who played chess, and all of them are irrationals.... (SLE, ILE and IEI)
    Do they play professionally? Not offending their skills but, I know people who play chess just for fun and not into it, at the amateur level, I have seen a lot of types who played.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Don't take the pics seriously!

    As far as I know, ILEs Ti hate chess and players are either p or j, so the j/p switch is useless when it comes to it
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Not anymore, but they used to, of course, if not I wouldn't have mentionned them, hahaa.. I mean, even I play chess, but I don't play professionally. lol.

    (The SLE was ranked no. 8 in my country for a while. And the IEI was a national champion in another European country when he was younger.)
    Oh wow, mind if I ask you play regularly? since you have the chance to know these top ranking players.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Rational things are those that behave lawfully. Their behavior is capable of being explained by a common principle. Irrational things are those that have to be taken as a given, without explanation or underlying principle.

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    I don't like most rational/irrational descriptions. They don't characterise either rationals or irrationals too well, or they abide by the MBTI distinction of Judging and Perceiving.

    Nor do I think there's any easy "one line" way of describing them.

    The way I've understood everything in socionics is to read as much material as I can (from many different viewpoints (although I personally prefer to stick to classical socionics viewpoints)) and get a "general picture" of the types. It's the only way to learn IMO. You'll soon find that you're in just as good a position - if not better - to describe the functions than most of the writers of whom you've read the material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Rationals --> Planning, rules, certainty, purpose...
    Irrationals --> Improvise, uncertainty, let it go...
    Very misleading to go by these descriptions... These work for MBTI but not for Socionics.

    By this description, one could characterize some Socionics INTps as rationals and ENFjs as irrationals, etc... It's just not this cut and dry, folks. (Unfortunately.)

    Irrationality vs. rationality is probably the last thing one learns in understanding Socionics... It's HARD to understand.

    After you've typed a few people correctly you will begin to feel the difference between rationality and irrationality... If I was to describe, I'd say rationals have a tendency, in conversation, to bounce back immediately (again, it's a feeling more than anything I can describe well whereas irrationals in conversation tend to let things lie a bit.

    In sum, in Socionics these simplistic descriptions do not work. You just need to learn the types and eventually you will feel the difference between irrationality and rationality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    After you've typed a few people correctly you will begin to feel the difference between rationality and irrationality...

    In sum, in Socionics these simplistic descriptions do not work. You just need to learn the types and eventually you will feel the difference between irrationality and rationality.
    Yep. That's the best way to learn the difference, and then memorize it in your own words.

    Often those words will work for you perfectly, but once you post them here, people have their own interpretations and will say you are totally wrong, which only adds confusing to your own effective words...

    Rational and Irrational behaviour is one of the most easy to spot.

    My own words (like 'm or not) would be:

    J: controlling, stress, demanding, rigidity
    P: go with the flow, relax, adapting, flexibility

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Yep. That's the best way to learn the difference, and then memorize it in your own words.

    Often those words will work for you perfectly, but once you post them here, people have their own interpretations and will say you are totally wrong, which only adds confusing to your own effective words...

    Rational and Irrational behaviour is one of the most easy to spot.

    My own words (like 'm or not) would be:

    J: controlling, stress, demanding, rigidity
    P: go with the flow, relax, adapting, flexibility
    This is a good post.

    Boiling it down like this I would use pretty similar words, (although not applicable in all cases of rationality vs. irrationality

    XXXj: in control; emphasis; pressing
    XXXp: more even-keeled; taking it as it comes; fluid

    even these words are too open-ended though... again, the difference is a feeling more than something I can articulate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    J: controlling, stress, demanding, rigidity
    P: go with the flow, relax, adapting, flexibility
    I fit more with your definition of P, and I'm definitely an LII. Your words sound more like the difference between Se/Ni and Ne/Si, but they probably mean something different to you. Carry on.

    Rational things are those that behave lawfully. Their behavior is capable of being explained by a common principle. Irrational things are those that have to be taken as a given, without explanation or underlying principle.
    However, when I look at it that way, I know I'm a rational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm
    I fit more with your definition of P, and I'm definitely an LII.
    Same here. LII is just about the most relaxed and undemanding type in my experience.

    Rationality and irrationality need to be viewed in light of quadra differences as described in this thread:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ws-socion.html

    Also: Ne/Si valuing is refered to as "relaxed", as opposed to "readied", in the Reinin descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Same here. LII is just about the most relaxed and undemanding type in my experience.
    Yes LII are difficult to separate from irrationals, but still, they have this inner strictness (or selfcontrol / discipline), I cannot explain it better, but they aren't that relaxed.

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    It would make sense that rationals are more readied, if the case were that an event happens and an irrational would wait upon their "biorhythms" for action, or that say a rational ignores the biorhythms and proceeds with whatever ruling he has. That could be trying to say that rationals are more consistent, since in theory one's leading function is inert upon information gathering, as well as evaluatory.
    Last edited by 717495; 05-20-2009 at 12:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Rationals will get more irritated if they have to change their plans, and can react too late in such conditions. This means that rationals typically prefer order, predictability, to know what to expect, because then they perform better and get more done, while irrationals typically like the opposite, as they learn more and perform at their best in chaotic conditions.
    I think this is a very accurate description of how rationality and irrationality play out irl. I don't feel the need to plan out everything but once plans are made it irritates me when they change. I also find it very helpful to have a general idea of how my day is going to go so I can get everything accomplished that I would like to accomplish. For example, if there is something i really want to do in the evening I will do my homework in the day and skip other day plans. The annoyance then comes if the event is cancelled and I could have at least had fun in the day and done my homework later instead of doing it in the day and having nothing to do at night.

    I remember when I was hanging out with my INFp and ESFp friends the ESFp mentioned 5 different things he wanted to do later that evening over the course of an hour. He obviously could not do all of them so I guess he liked being unpredictable until later came and just pick one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    I think this is a very accurate description of how rationality and irrationality play out irl. I don't feel the need to plan out everything but once plans are made it irritates me when they change. I also find it very helpful to have a general idea of how my day is going to go so I can get everything accomplished that I would like to accomplish. For example, if there is something i really want to do in the evening I will do my homework in the day and skip other day plans. The annoyance then comes if the event is cancelled and I could have at least had fun in the day and done my homework later instead of doing it in the day and having nothing to do at night.

    I remember when I was hanging out with my INFp and ESFp friends the ESFp mentioned 5 different things he wanted to do later that evening over the course of an hour. He obviously could not do all of them so I guess he liked being unpredictable until later came and just pick one.
    yeah, the ESFP like to do several things at one time if possible.

    Anyways, the description you refer to, is MBTI, and very good. I get stress when I know that things are already planned and that I'm stuck with it. I feel trapped.

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