"You're so passive-aggressive"

[Expat]

I have noticed for some time that a few people here - dolphin certainly, I think ArchonAlarion, and I guess Allie (at least - I don't recall other precise examples now) - seem to have the most dislike for people being what they call "passive-aggressive".

So, what do you think that means - if anything - in socionics terms? What is it that those "passive-agressive" individuals have - or lack - that puts those individuals above (and certainly some others) off so much?

[Cheesy]

Maybe it's a lack of Se and not valuing it.. It could be a little simplistic but maybe Se polrs have difficulty in saying straight up what they're annoyed with in the fear of having an open conflict with people.

I think passive aggressiveness has mostly to do with a lack of assertiveness, I also think that assertiveness could be a manifestation of Se at its best, meaning that people say things in a straightforward open manner. They believe in what they say and are not afraid to express it.
Passive aggressive people are not confident enough to express their feelings openly. It could be linked with Se but to be honest it probably has a lot more to do with a person's behavioral patterns and developing bad coping strategies more than anything else.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Ezra]

I think you're wasting your time analyzing it. Might as well ask, "Why do some people like to say 'grow up'?" Around here, it's usually just something people like to say in an argument to try to put down the other person. It doesn't mean anything. Most of the time people aren't even being 'passive-aggressive' when accused of it, nor is there much similarity between those who get called such. Just another generic insult.

+1

[ArchonAlarion]

Well I was saying "grow up" to someone who just called me an idiot, attacked me without reason, and had refused to discuss a celeb typing with me based on where I got my information from using an argument from association, which is a widely known logical fallacy.

So +1in Diana's post is kind of immature, and shows your lack of consistently applied forum ethics.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Good question. I've typically seen it manifest in ENTj's as sixth function seeking/valueing. That is, they are seeking/valueing a form of assertiveness in themselves but as they don't really possess the skills to assert themselves by their own means, that is, standing on their own feet so to speak, in a typical Se manner, that they look to compensate by going about it in different ways.

This can be passive aggressiveness, aligning with those who may be regarded as powerful people to try to create a network of authority for themselves, attempts to sow the seeds of discontent towards those they see could be rivals to their own position, or desire of a position.

On the whole I view it as an illusion of power, authority, assertiveness when perhaps the illusion is created because in reality they know they don't have it. But it's a good job of creating power, but, and perhaps I digress, they're aware the 'bubble' could burst, so they focus on it more.

In contrast, I know an LIE who I see as someone who doesn't exhibit the traits I mention (which some others either rightly or wrongly posit to you). This one I know comes across as rather 'humble'. (possibly a poor choice of word without my further elaboration).

I would say it's a form of Se valueing, to be honest I don't think it's a healthy form of it's manifestation.

Hmm, i'll try and think about this later and possibly make another post in addition to this one. It's possible i'm not doing what's in my head on the subject justice in comparison to what I write in this post.

[ragnar]

So, what do you think that means - if anything - in socionics terms? What is it that those "passive-agressive" individuals have - or lack - that puts those individuals above (and certainly some others) off so much?

Concerning the term "passive aggressive": Guess we're talking a trichotomy here between individuals who're
1. aggressive
2. passive aggressive
3. passive.

I'd guess 1 correlates with socionics Se, 2 with Fi and 3 with Ni? This would correspond to stereotypes of aggressive male ESTp vs passive or passive aggressive female INFp.

But how this plays out socially may perhaps relate to conversational positioning more than anything else, as Diana hinted at. This positioning may still correlate with the combination of socionic types of the conversationalists , I guess.

[implied]

I have noticed for some time that a few people here - dolphin certainly, I think ArchonAlarion, and I guess Allie (at least - I don't recall other precise examples now) - seem to have the most dislike for people being what they call "passive-aggressive".

So, what do you think that means - if anything - in socionics terms? What is it that those "passive-agressive" individuals have - or lack - that puts those individuals above (and certainly some others) off so much?

i'm not really sure, but i dislike passive aggression as well. what i really dislike is when people attempt to insult you or dislike you, but can't come right out and say, "screw you, i can't stand you." instead they hide it behind the guise of "what, i didn't mean anything!"

[marooned]

I think based on forum history, that dolphin and Allie's past behavior could be called passive aggressive...

I've thought this as well. And I think that sometimes the people who complain the most about others being passive-aggressive struggle with it themselves.

The passive aggressiveness seems to mostly come from the Ne sub Se polr people. They slither away from conflict, indirectly attack you, make biting remarks hiding behind some sort of "wit", etc. It puts me off when its constant, tedious, and obviously reactionary.

I've sometimes thought when people accuse others of being "passive-aggressive" on the forum they seem to be 'passive-aggressively' accusing them of not being Se valuing (and I don't think it's necessarily related... for instance I work with someone who I think is probably LSI, and who is also in my opinion passive-aggressive). Passive-aggressivity is sometimes type-relevant I think, but sometimes it's just the standard "being assertive" thing that a lot of people struggle with (which i struggle with as well). Not to mention, there are a lot of different sorts of behaviors that can be construed as "passive-aggressive" and perhaps it even has some quadra relevance, but it just ends up being context dependent a lot. For instance, sometimes I think the person making the accusation is being passive-aggressive while the one they're accusing wasn't being so at all.

Edit: Well, actually I think that passive-aggressivity can probably annoy Se DS the most. And character assassinations of the sort "omg, you're so passive-aggressive!" meant as some insult to defame the other person seem largely Beta. Now I feel I've painted the white elephant white.

i'm not really sure, but i dislike passive aggression as well. what i really dislike is when people attempt to insult you or dislike you, but can't come right out and say, "screw you, i can't stand you." instead they hide it behind the guise of "what, i didn't mean anything!"

I can probably see myself doing that kind of thing, while simultaneously not liking it when others are passive-aggressive. I would much rather people just say they hate my guts openly because then at least I'll know. But at the same time, I seem to not be able to make such remarks myself, and my feelings of "like" and "dislike" in regards to people can be very fuzzy... When they are strong and clear I'm may be afraid to tell people I like them, or to say I don't like them because I'm mostly concerned with how this will affect things later, but sometimes secondarily because I don't want to hurt people. This perception inflates my importance in the universe, of course (otherwise it wouldn't hold up so well).

[ArchonAlarion]

Tbh I don't even care about this, lol. I don't actually mind the people I call passive aggressive, and irl largely prefer it over "overt" aggression. It was more an "obective" state I was referring to, not neccessarily that I actually had a big deal problem with it (with the exception of SubT, who really was annoying me)

In fact, people might even call me passive aggressive.

So, to anyone who I called passive aggressive: I apologize. Sincerely.

[implied]

I can probably see myself doing that kind of thing, while simultaneously not liking it when others are passive-aggressive. I would much rather people just say they hate my guts openly because then at least I'll know. But at the same time, I seem to not be able to make such remarks myself, and my feelings of "like" and "dislike" in regards to people can be very fuzzy... When they are strong and clear I'm may be afraid to tell people I like them, or to say I don't like them because I'm mostly concerned with how this will affect things later, but sometimes secondarily because I don't want to hurt people. This perception inflates my importance in the universe, of course (otherwise it wouldn't hold up so well).

oh, i probably do it, too. fwiw i'm the same way about not being able to tell people i like them overtly. maybe our own strategies enforce us wanting someone else to be clear about how they feel about us, whatever that is.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[FDG]

I'd like better passive aggression rather than direct aggression. At least I can just safely ignore the person (in the frist case), whereas the second type can much more easily end up with fist-fighting or something similar.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[FDG]

It's kind of hard to get into a fist fight over the internet

Oh, I didn't think it was meant to refer exclusively to the internet. In that case, I'm afraid I can't even recognize passive aggression, lol

[Lotus]

I don't know about "reactionary" or what you mean by that, but yeah, that kind of crap is extremely annoying. It's all insinuations, little sideways remarks, nothing that anyone just comes right out and says. They do it, imo, to suggest without having to defend themselves. They give you nothing to attack, nothing to counter, just little hints here and there. Maybe you find that the people who do it to you are Se polr, but the people who have done it to me at some point or another have been Allie, dolphin and Steve, none of which are Se polr.

So, how many “little sideways remarks” have I made to you? Whenever I have a problem with someone I tend to not be able to hold myself back from saying everything that comes to mind. And this has been no different with you. Honestly, every time we've clashed I've practically written essay-length replies to you detailing everything that I feel you're doing complete with my reactions to it. I cannot recall a single time I've said nothing but a “little sideways remark” without elaborating further than necessary to get my point across.

And anyone who's conflicted with me knows this is true. I don't make little hints unless it's supposed to be a joke—but even then, it is obvious what I mean by it. My style of humor isn't blatant-in-your-face-obvious, so maybe someone will misinterpret it as passive-aggression. I don't know, but I consider myself to be pretty clear about what I think and feel. And if I'm not, I would certainly clarify if asked.



@ OP: I would think most people dislike passive-aggression when it is used in arguments. The reasons for this, Maria summed up perfectly.

i'm not really sure, but i dislike passive aggression as well. what i really dislike is when people attempt to insult you or dislike you, but can't come right out and say, "screw you, i can't stand you." instead they hide it behind the guise of "what, i didn't mean anything!"

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Lotus]

Allie: Things like calling me "unrealistic and abstract" without any kind of basis whatsoever because you think that will make me seem less ESI. Never giving any backing to accusations of the sort, just dropping them as though they mean something.

I've never said anything about you to make you “seem less ESI,” okay? I couldn't care less about whether you seem ESI to people or not. And I can't believe how hypocritical that statement is. Just now, you group me into people you believe are passive-aggressive without even giving a second thought over whether I am or not. Also, quoting two words I've used to describe you outside of their original context—i.e., essay-length posts where I've cited exactly where you're being unrealistic—is incredibly misleading. And to top it off, please tell me how exactly me expressing my opinion of you is a form of passive aggression when I clearly tell you exactly what I mean by it and how I feel about you. Never have I “toned down” for fear of not being able to back up what I say. Don't pretend otherwise.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Diana]

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[ArchonAlarion]

The passive aggressiveness seems to mostly come from the Ne sub Se polr people. They slither away from conflict, indirectly attack you, make biting remarks hiding behind some sort of "wit", etc. It puts me off when its constant, tedious, and obviously reactionary.

I can say and think that someone is acting passive aggressive if I want to and I do not need your permission, buddy.

You're not proving anything Expat, beyond your own stubborness, haughtyness, and false confidence that you're the lord of the manor over this forum.

This, this thread, is an example of passive aggressiveness. You are obviously trying to discredit me and I'm sick of it.

[aestrivex]

The passive aggressiveness seems to mostly come from the Ne sub Se polr people. They slither away from conflict, indirectly attack you, make biting remarks hiding behind some sort of "wit", etc. It puts me off when its constant, tedious, and obviously reactionary.

so you would see me as passive aggressive? how do you justify that?