A explanation on "childish" and "mature" views in the Socion

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[ArchonAlarion]

When one's initial assumption and conclusion do not match, it is said that the person is "naive", a trait specific to children. They have to experiment a situation and interact with another person to make a judgment. Judicious (Reasonable) people have this trait. They easier overlook flaws in themselves and others.
When one's initial purpose and result do not match, it is said that they are "not serious", irresponsible, improvisers. Again, this is another common view on children. Merry (Subjectivist) people have this trait. They are often involved in activities which do not require precision but creativity and experimentation is needed: arts, research, troubleshooting.

- Judgment:
- - Merry: "I have no guarantee that the instructions are good, I have to check them myself", "I'm intending to obtain a result with these properties, but if I find another one with better properties is better", "if we can't find a better one, we'll create something better"
- - Serious: "I will follow the required instructions, the result will be good", "I'm intending to obtain a result with these exact properties, I'm not interested in another result", "if we can't find a better one, we'll stay with this one"

Updated: 14 May 2009

Yes. This is basically how I feel about most of my interests, including socionics.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[ArchonAlarion]

it does put you in Delta, but because this stuff becomes indirect and "built upon" as a system I wouldn't personally base my judgements of your type off of that.

Well unless I could see a clear line of connection and you were adamantly "judicious".

[ArchonAlarion]

what is left and right?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

Hmmm, definitely decisive, but by these definitions I am split on merry/serious.

[ArchonAlarion]

@Hkkmr: okay. I think I remember you talking about that and quadra prgression.

Is there anything specifically written on that?

[ragnar]

When one's initial assumption and conclusion do not match, it is said that the person is "naive", a trait specific to children. They have to experiment a situation and interact with another person to make a judgment. Judicious (Reasonable) people have this trait.

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but this seems to be a description of the people who populate the loony left. Some people call them "Collectivists". I have less polite words for them. Many of them are INFps. Full of social skills, good social climbers, brains full of mush.

[DirectorAbbie]

That's good. I'm gonna print it out and show it around.

[krieger]

Very good. Everything said in the article matches my experience on the topic.

Notice also that this confirms my views on how the "definite, self-confident" type in the Myers-Briggs (INTJ) is not described as a typical Alpha.

[xerx]

I'm merry/judicious

but I have one issue with the judicious/decisive description...

I'm sure she will be understanding, this hopefully will not change her opinion about me. If this happens, she's not worth it, to misjudge me for this incident only."

I can't judge someone as "not worth it." I would treat any judgment from her (good or bad) as natural, then blame myself for not anticipating it.

"I kinda stink and have no time to go home for a shower, I'll find an excuse to delay the date for tomorrow because this incident could change her opinion about me."

I would delay the date if I stunk very badly.

[anndelise]

When one's initial assumption and conclusion do not match, it is said that the person is "naive", a trait specific to children. They have to experiment a situation and interact with another person to make a judgment. Judicious (Reasonable) people have this trait. They easier overlook flaws in themselves and others.

This is actually one of the things that I find bothers the beejeebies out of me.
When I come across a person who has a history of assumptions not matching their conclusions...or not matching 'reality', yet they continue to form seemingly firm opinions on whatever it is at the moment. Then down the road their perception changes...the 'facts' change...and they'll be just as firm in this new opinion as they were in the old one. Repeat enough times and surely this person would figure out that maybe...just maybe...they should step back and not form such strong opinions until, at least, there's a pretty good chance that the 'facts' or perceptions won't change much.

I've a few socionics friends that I chat with off forum. Some of them will ask me what type I think someone else is. Usually I can't offer any answer because I haven't formed an actual opinion yet. Like things are being held in suspension (purgatory??) until I get enough information in to form even an inkling of an opinion. Often I'll say that I haven't interacted with the person long enough to have even gotten an idea of their type.

I think that something like this could also be at the heart of those typing arguments of 'you don't have to interact with the person nor get to know them to be able to type them' vs 'you can't accurately type someone unless you interact with them for a while and/or get to know them'. I'm a firm believer that in order to accurately type someone...or at least to verify if you typed them correctly...that you need to interact with them in varying situations and in varying topics to get a better feel of what the person is like...(and that you're not deluding yourself, heh).

I also think that something like this could also be involved in situations where a person doesn't seem to be willing to change their type. For example, if someone they haven't interacted with (person B) tries to retype them (person A), and person A fits your description of judicious (reasonable), then person A isn't going to seriously consider what person B has to say, unless person A has experienced person B's typing success abilities. Especially if person A refrained from making an opinion as to their own type until after they've felt that they've studied the theory or played with the theory enough to know how it fits into their own lives, and their own perceptions of other people. If person B suddenly pops in, without any interaction with A, and without finding out how A sees the theory fitting into their own lives and their own understandings, and perceptions, etc....then person B isn't likely to have much of an influence on person A.

Ok, so that paragraph is kind of mixed up a bit. I probably shouldn't post it due to its messy nature, but I'll leave it there. The idea is there....if not a better wording.

- Perception:
- - Judicious: "I have to behave naturally, I am who I am and I can't change it", "I may have problems in the future if I'm over-estimated", "if I know how to to that job, I am ready to for it", "damn! I need a qualification for that job!", "he's a doctor, if he fails it means he's incompetent", "I kinda stink and have no time to go home for a shower, I'm sure she will be understanding, this hopefully will not change her opinion about me. If this happens, she's not worth it, to misjudge me for this incident only."

This is something else that I tend to do when trying to help someone with a problem, particularly a relationship issue. My thoughts are that we are who we are, good parts of us..and not so great parts of us. (Yeah, we can change, improvement is something I also encourage IF the person themselves feel they should improve...for themselves...not for someone else.) But often I try get a person to understand that just because a relationship didn't work out, that that doesn't mean either one of them are bad people. Their nature's just weren't compatible. If person A needs to hear certain things that person B doesn't say, or doesn't like to say, then it's not going to work. That doesn't make person A bad for wanting to hear those things...nor does it make person B bad for not saying those things...it just makes them incompatible in that regards.

The other description, about having to create and maintain a good image, and "I am who I want to be", etc...that stuff drives me nuts. It's like placing a bunch of 'shoulds' onto yourself. I 'should' be that way, I 'should' do these things, etc. That just seems like so much pressure to place on yourself...and worse, to place onto other people. Just be yourself. If you don't like yourself, then make some changes. Just try to make sure that those changes can still be natural behavior for you and not always forced. And if you don't succeed at making those changes...then so be it. That suggests to me that they weren't going to be natural behavior for you. Aim a little lower maybe...or change something different.

- - Decisive: "I have to create and maintain a good image, I am who I want to be", "the higher I am estimated, the better", "I will not do that job because I'm not qualified for it", "damn! I need a job for my qualification!", "he's a doctor, if he fails it means the situation is really grave", "I kinda stink and have no time to go home for a shower, I'll find an excuse to delay the date for tomorrow because this incident could change her opinion about me. If this does not happen it means she has no self-esteem, I'll find out in the future."

This description actually makes me cringe inside.

- Judgment:
- - Merry: "I have no guarantee that the instructions are good, I have to check them myself", "I'm intending to obtain a result with these properties, but if I find another one with better properties is better", "if we can't find a better one, we'll have to make something better ourselves"
- - Serious: "I will follow the required instructions, the result will be good", "I'm intending to obtain a result with these exact properties, I'm not interested in another result", "if we can't find a better one, we'll stay with this one, at least it works"

I'm a little torn between these too. Especially when taking into consideration whether or not the intended purpose matches the result.

Like, there are things that I want to learn how to do. But I can't seem to find some simple how-tos for doing them. I'll find a bunch of theory and such, but nothing that just gives me the basics and allows me to just follow a next step kind of process. But I really want to learn how to do this thing. Here is where I think that I fit the Serious description easily. Better result is good, but I'll often settle for good enough. (though once in a while the perfectionistic tendencies will pop up...grrrr)

But since I can't find step-by-step methods for some of the things I want to do/learn, then I'll set about trying to figure out how to take the information that IS available to me...and try to figure out how to create my own step-by-step process. But it's so freaking hard. I mean, if I had knowledge of the topics, then I could create one. But I don't have knowledge of the topic....and to get even some of that knowledge I need the step-by-step...but I've got to create my own step-by-step. And the frustration just keeps building until I want to rip my hair out. Really, I'd settle for 'good enough'...for now. And improve on it as my experience and knowledge and understanding of it grows.

So in this sense...I feel that in some ways...like the above two paragraphs..that both Serious and Merry fit me. But that if given the choice, I'd probably choose to follow a given process...for now...and then improve on it as I progress. So...uh...I guess mixed.

We may conclude that types in the Socionics...:
- Beta quadra have mature perception and childish judgment (Decisive and Merry);
- Delta quadra have childish perception and mature judgment (Judicious and Serious);
- Alpha quadra have childish perception and judgment (Judicious and Merry);
- Gamma quadra have mature perception and judgment (Decisive and Serious);
Therefore Alpha is the most childish-like quadra, while Gamma is the most mature-like one.

- Alpha and Delta are both more doubtful, while Beta and Gamma are both more confident.
- Alpha and Beta are both more creative, while Gamma and Delta are both more productive;
Doubt implies further experiments and discovery, confidence implies complete trust in previous knowledge.

Confidence is good...if there's something to actually support it.
Otherwise I find it distasteful. Especially, as I've mentioned, if what one is 'confident' in keeps changing. Far better to remain in a state of suspension than submit myself to one path or one thought.

Creativity is admirable. I don't consider myself creative. Never have. My NiFe brother and SiFe companion both tell me that I AM creative. But I don't see it. I view what I do do as being something akin to 'editing' and accidental, lol. Discovery is a good word..though I can't remember if that applies to this part or not.

Productivity is admirable as well...as long as there's more to life than just being productive. Unfortunately, I don't consider myself as very productive either. I don't seem to have the follow through required to be 'productive'. Although, I get very excited when I accomplish even small tasks. I think this is why I make lists of things to do. I'm always writing lists..mostly to help remind of the things I need to do, or to remind myself of things I wanted to get done. (Since I get sidetracked and distracted so easily.)

But if given the choice of what makes me feel better about myself...I'd pick productivity. I mean, the sense of pride, and happiness, and 'lightness' (as if a load has been removed from my shoulders), those three things combined totally make my day...and I get them the easiest when I feel that I've accomplished even one small thing for the day.


I'm going to print a copy of the OP, and if I find my socionics notes (if I haven't already tossed them), then I'll add this to them. I like it, I think it was written well, not convoluted (like my attempts, lol). This will probably be something I'll refer to a few times. Thank you for posting this.

Oh, and if I totally misunderstood something, then please let me know.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[anndelise]

@anndelise: Lol, I agree with your anger about the judgments on you, the same happens to me. But as you can see, it's just... fundamental, natural! I got used to accept it and make my best to enforce this acceptance on the other "side". Edit: I use the word "productive" in the positive degree of comparison, not comparative. I used "more" to compare it with "creative" in the same person. I'll reformulate.

I'm not quite sure what the first is referring to. "my anger about the judgments on me"?
And, uh... ...I'm not quite sure what the second is referring to either.

Just a few notes of mine regarding the example statements. Remember, this is just me, I'm just trying to figure out where I am on this...how it fits in with me, personally. And not necessarily a reflection on your writing nor efforts. Basically, what I mean is, don't feel that I'm asking you to alter anything.

Note, I placed the statements and my descriptions of myself into the button text to reduce overwhelming the reader too much. Read only if you want the details, heh.

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- - - "when I work for myself, the results of my work are usually better or worse than what I wanted" (merry)
- - - "when I work for myself, the results of my work are usually what I wanted" (serious)

(I would think that the first would be typical...that our works don't tend to come out exactly like how we wanted them. Then there's the issues with perfectionistic tendencies that could be interfering with our perception of our work. However, I'm not so focused on the accuracy of my work…unless I'm dealing with trying to understand someone's situation…where I want to be able to say something that I think might apply to their own understanding, and have them say 'yes, that's it'..and feel understood by me. But I'm not sure how/if this applies to what's written above. Also, usually 'what I wanted' from my work is for it to..you know…work. So as long as it works, I'm happy. Though if it didn't work as well as I'd hope, I may or may not put in effort to figure out how to do it better next time….this part depends on how interested I am and how much effort/energy I'm willing to put into it.

In some ways, I think this might have to do with the accuracy statement. But yet the first statement could just as easily apply to accuracy, imo.)

- - - "I prefer avoiding redundancy to including as many options as possible" (merry)
- - - "I prefer including as many options as possible to avoiding redundancy" (serious)

First of all, I like mix and match. Mix and match usually allows me to choose between options so that I can pick the options that suit various things that are involved….such as my mood or energy level, my personal abilities, and the situation itself. This provides me with options and doesn't hem me in to any one specific way. So, my choice isn't options > redundancy…but more like options > boxing me in.

With that said, they both seem to be choosing options > redundancy. The difference seems to be in which is the motivating factor…to include options…or to avoid redundancy.

My experiences with infps has been that they avoid redundancy. Particularly infps who are focused on their hidden agenda. Or when they are trying to explain something to others….or me. Whereas I think a little redundancy during an explanation can actually help, as you're putting the same information in varying contexts in the hopes that at least one of those contexts will hit home with the person you're explaining something to. (I think explaining is the wrong word for me to use. Describing might be a better term, but it can come off as explaining as well.)

Anyways, basically, I don't know which one applies to me.

- - - "check twice for possible errors, even if you follow the correct procedure" (merry)
- - - "it is unlikely you'll fail, if you follow the correct procedure" (serious)

I think on this one I lean more towards the merry side than the serious side.

- - - "your mistake is unfortunate. be as careful as possible to avoid it next time." (merry)
- - - "your mistake is unfortunate. take all possible measures to avoid it next time." (serious)

Aren't these saying the same thing?

- - - "just tell me what you want, I might have a different way to do it" (merry)
- - - "just tell me how to do it, step-by-step, and I will do it" (serious)

Lol, this one actually reminds me of some common interactions between Richard and I.
I want something done…but it's generally a vague idea of what I want done. I don't know how to do it, so I turn to Richard to ask him for ideas. The more accurate I am in telling him what I want, the easier it is for him to find a way of getting it done. Alas, I'm not very accurate in telling him what it is I want. But I'll try to describe to him the information I have, so that he can get an idea of what I want/need.

For example, yesterday, I was trying to figure out how to set up a container for planting some zucchini in. These would grow into bush zucchini, so the vining aspects would be minimalized in comparison. However, I still needed some kind of support system for the plant, as well as a way of tying up the fruit so that it didn't lay on the ground where the slugs could get to it, etc. So I needed something sturdy enough to be able to hold fruit being tied to it. The items we had were designed to be set up a different way, and a way that wasn't going to work. So I'm standing there, holding the items, and explaining to him what I needed. And sure enough, he takes the two items and shows me a possibility and asks me if that would work. Yep, it was perfect for what I needed.

With that said…I'm not quite sure where I fit again.
I mean, I want the step-by-step. I need that. So that I don’t have to focus on everything at once and can just focus on one step at a time…focus on getting just the next action done before moving on to the action after that. So that part fits.
However, I also tend to modify a step to suit variables in the situation. And I get real…itchy…(a cross between pissy and irritable but the strength of the feeling is dependent upon the strength of the pressure to 'have to do it this way'). I get itchy if I feel as if I have to do it a specific way, and I can't alter anything to suit the variables of the situation, etc. I feel boxed in. And that feeling makes me want to fight who/whatever is boxing me in.

For example, cooking…and learning to play a musical instrument.
I hate recipes. I always feel as if someone is standing over my shoulder with a ruler ready to slap me if I don't do it exactly right. I also want to know what the ingredients for..what do they do? Why that much? Why do I have to include that ingredient? What happens if I don’t have that ingredient (usually the seasonings)? It's just….a lot of pressure..coming from a piece of paper!!! Lol. It's taken me years to find a couple of books that a) starts out with vary basic food prep methods, and then b) are set up to allow for freedom to mix-and-match what kinds of ingredients to include. Though I'm still having problems with the actual follow through of cooking. I mean, just because I have the step-by-step doesn't guarantee that I'll do it. It just means that I feel a lot of release of pressure from feeling as if *I*'ve got to be the one to come up with figuring out how to do something that I know nothing about.

Learning to play a musical instrument is similar to following a recipe. (for me) And carries with it a similar pressured feeling. I want to learn how to make my own music…not how to replicate someone else's. And yes, theoretically I know that after enough repetitions of different musics, then one develops an ear…possibly enough to start experimenting with making their own music. But I don't see why we can't do as children do and explore the instrument, explore the sounds, and discover what we like or don't like in the process of…playing around with the instrument. I'd rather do it in a guided way though. I'd like someone who knows and understands music to set up a guided system for learning how to play an instrument through the process of playing and exploring musical principles.

- - - "in a complex task, I'd rather prefer to be asked for originality than accuracy" (merry)
- - - "in a complex task, I'd rather prefer to be asked for accuracy than originality" (serious)

Both sounds like too much pressure for me to handle…but that's probably me.
I suck at details…expectations of accuracy would kill me.
I don't consider myself creative….expectations of originality would bug me.

- - - "under extreme time pressure, the first thing I do is to remove what is uncertain" (merry)
- - - "under extreme time pressure, the first thing I do is to use what is certain" (serious)

Hmmm, under extreme time pressure…why does it have to be time??...
Under extreme pressure…the first thing I do…is…panic??? Lol
Uh…I can't remove what is uncertain. I can only focus on the things that I do know…and try to do something that would cover various uncertainties. Often it's a trial and error approach until I'm familiar enough with how the uncertainties might effect what I'm trying to do.
So..uh..I guess I fit into the serious here.

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You know, after going through this…I'm wondering if some of the difficulties I'm having has more to do with not being on the Decisive side. Like,…mmm…like I'm taking the described judicial approach… ie doubtful instead of confident, as in:

Doubt implies further experiments and discovery, confidence implies complete trust in previous knowledge.

Such that even my approach to step-by-step, accuracy/originality, certainty/uncertainty, error avoidance, options > redundancy, and judgments on the results of my work…are all influenced by the preference of experiment and discovering for myself. No…because even though I want to experiment and discover for myself…I still need someone who has experience and knowledge of the topic to guide my experiments so that they can help keep me on focus instead of wandering all over the damned place. But then I also don't necessarily have complete trust in their knowledge...as I want to discover things for myself…just…maybe in a guided way, lol.

Ok, so, feel free to ignore what I've written. Basically, I guess, I'm still confused as to which one would describe me best. I think that the Experimenting & Discovery aspects are influencing what parts of merry I feel fit me…yet the need for guidance by someone with experience/knowledge and my lack of 'originality' influences what parts of serious I feel fit me. *sigh*

However, I still think that the OP was written well, and the new formatting helps reduce mental clutter (avoids confusion), though I think that the rewritten examples might be too similar to each other now. Like I said…don't adjust it because of my inability to figure it out. It's more likely a reflection on me rather than on the actual writing/ideas.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-male]

I'd be Delta by this.

[Warlord]

- Perception:

- - - "I have to behave naturally, I am who I am and I can't change it"
- - - "I have to create and maintain a good image, I am who I want to be"

Both apply to me, depends on what it's about. Maybe I'm more of the latter.

- - - "I may have problems in the future if I'm over-estimated"
- - - "the higher I am estimated, the better"

- - - "if I know how to do that job, I am ready to for it"
- - - "I will not do that job because I'm not qualified for it"

First one would apply for me. But if I made the decicision of hiring someone, I would definetly hire based on the second one.

- - - "damn! I need a better qualification for that job!"
- - - "damn! I need a better job for my qualification!"

- - - "he's a doctor, if he fails it means he's incompetent"
- - - "he's a doctor, if he fails it means the situation is really grave"

- - - "I kinda stink and have no time to go home for a shower, I'm sure she will be understanding, this hopefully will not change her opinion about me. If this happens, she's not worth it, to misjudge me for this incident only."
- - - "I kinda stink and have no time to go home for a shower, I'll find an excuse to delay the date for tomorrow because this incident could change her opinion about me. If this does not happen it means she has no self-esteem, I'll find out in the future."

I usually don't care about that type of stuff. It only becomes important when it actually matters, like that type of situation or job interview etc. So usually I look like a bum, but in every important situation I look like a whole different person.

- - - "I like to say I'm doing my studies, because saying I'm a student implies something more"
- - - "I like to say I'm a student, because this implies something more than doing my studies"

Although it annoyned me, when I said I'm student, people automatically associated me with someone who has "student-life".

- Judgment:
- - - "when I work for myself, the results of my work are usually better or worse than what I wanted"
- - - "when I work for myself, the results of my work are usually what I wanted"

- - - "I prefer avoiding redundancy to including as many options as possible"
- - - "I prefer including as many options as possible to avoiding redundancy"

- - - "check twice for possible errors, even if you follow the correct procedure"
- - - "it is unlikely you'll fail, if you follow the correct procedure"

If I'm learning, I start out as the first. But move more to the second. But there's problem with this, following strict procedures is Ti, so it's automatically merry. I do things more the way I have learned myself to be the most effective way, rather than following given rules.

- - - "your mistake is unfortunate. be as careful as possible to avoid it next time."
- - - "your mistake is unfortunate. take all possible measures to avoid it next time."

- - - "just tell me what you want, I might have a different way to do it"
- - - "just tell me how to do it, step-by-step, and I will do it"

First one is intuitive-approach, the second one is Ti-valuing, so that actually would be merry.

- - - "in a complex task, I'd rather prefer to be asked for originality than accuracy"
- - - "in a complex task, I'd rather prefer to be asked for accuracy than originality"

Same problem as with the one above. This more of intuitive vs thinking. I might do either.

- - - "under extreme time pressure, the first thing I do is to remove what is uncertain"
- - - "under extreme time pressure, the first thing I do is to use what is certain"

This is negativist vs positivist.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[ragnar]

A explanation on "childish" and "mature" views in the Socion

The article seems to be very good, from the little I understand of it. But I just don't get it.

Maybe an alpha vs gamma thing. Gammaish summary anyone?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Warlord]

I edited the text to be more clear, basically the old one was a bit confusing: you (and Diana) interpreted that one confidently removes the uncertain, meaning ignoring it because of its lack of consistence. In that interpretation both are the same thing, like she said.

There is no connection with the negativism/positivism. The glass/sum examples on Wikisocion, which I think confused you, are examples of quantities, amounts, which both are known, definite and measurable, but dealing with the uncertain is very different.
For the sum collecting case, I can give you a Merry/Serious example: the sum required for the project is unknown.
- Merry: "we first have to know the required sum to start collecting"
- Serious: "we don't need to know the required sum to start collecting. If we pass it, we will give the difference back."
This is always a reason of quarrel in societies and a good example where the Merry are considered uncooperative.

The wiksocion articles examples are bit inaccurate. I tried to find better source, but couldn't find right now. But the negativists think in negatives, in their thinking they eliminate what isn't/they don't like etc.. While positivists think the opposite way.

It's basically said in this part though: Positivists focus on the presence of something, whereas negativists focus primarily on the absence of something.

So a serious negativist would start an elimination process. But now I think I know what you were aiming at, you shouldn't remove what's uncertain, you can only remove what's certainly not.

[FDG]

Mmm. I'd totally fit Serious without further thought, but neither judicious nor decisive particularly appeal to me. Decisive seems like a picture of an excessively image-conscious yuppie, while Judicious is a bit too mild for the nature of my character.

[The Exception]

Interesting read. I identify most with judicious and serious.