LiveandletLive
Why do people type her as an ESFj? I can recall a few people do so on wiki, Ashton, Nick, Vero, J-riddy, Archon. I don't agree with all of the typings of everyone I have just listed. Some of their opinion I highly valued, but to me I think LiveandletLive was a classic ESFp, she roams around simultaneously, Ep temperament and is so not EJ. I would really like to know why people typed her as an ESFj think she is one, because I think she is a benchtype for the ESFp.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
Originally Posted by Jarno
She was definitely SEE.
It is just like you are an EIE but since you talk a lot intellectual Socionic stuff, people mistakenly think you are an ILE. But there are a lot of differences.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
Woah, slam the breaks. How did my name get tossed into this group when I have never said I thought she was ESFj? I don't even have an opinion on her type.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
You are really the only one I have listed there where I respect your typing and Socionic skills, Blah, you did tell me on stickam, you didn't think she was an SEE I was shock. then you think she was an ESFj or wasn't sure at the very least, but not SEE.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
I really think you're imagining that or confusing something I said with someone else. I'm fairly certain I've never made an opinion on Danielle's type. And if I did I would never have said she was an ESFj.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
Lol, yes, I also think she's SEE. Her lunatic drunken antics on Stickam were priceless.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
DUDE remember when she beat up some chick, and then while she was on stickam talking about it the girl came and knocked on her door? Lmfao...
she was a stereo typical SEE. Very likely the Fi subtype.
People who type her as ESE either don't know her wel enough or aren't that experienced with SEE's and ESE's.
she is too sexy to be ESE, she is obviously SEE
Judging from the eight or so nodding posts before me, I'm probably going to get criticized for saying this. But oh well, here goes: I really don't think she's SEE. Admittedly, I did go back and forth with her type; first thinking that she was blatantly SEE and even arguing with those who thought she wasn't because it seemed so obvious to me. However, my opinion has changed since developing a better understanding of SEEs, and also based on a lot of things I'd rather not elaborate on in this thread. IMO, she's ESE. I'm not going to argue over it simply because my reasoning stems from personal experience with her, rendering any explanation essentially pointless hearsay. So agree, disagree, whatever; but I'm not going to discuss this further.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
Well thanks so much for sharing.
hehehe
i like the way that happened...
@gilly: your reaction was cool. rather hilarious switch of tones there (allie --> gilly's tone) if i'm interpreting it correctly. hehehee.
sorry, just had an urge to add my 2 cents.
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
Hey, don't worry about it... because I really would like to know why people type her this if they are not bullshitting and intrinsically think that she is an ESE.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
lol yes you did and that was my intentionFeNi ftw.
LMFAO
My typing of Liveandletlive is basically subjective and intuited at this point.
From what little I have personally seen of her, she seemed Fe mode and Ne seeking.
So w/e.
The end is nigh
Zomg really? I never noticed until this thread!I agree with everything Ashton says until Gilly points it out!Fancy that!
nope.
I read some of her posts from when I typed myself as ILI. She seemed likable and gave me more hope for my shakey ILI typing.
When I changed to Ti ENTp and also changed my perspectives on socionics I decided to bring her with me. I thought maybe ISFp, but when I saw Steve's Fe ESFj typing, it made more sense.
Also I foresaw your response Gilly because you have become as predictable as the clock on my wall.
The end is nigh
Oh and dont just repost my modified quotation, replacing ashton's name with steve's because thats so five minutes from now.
The end is nigh
It doesn't really matter what you say. You have been made a pawn and refuse to see it. Besides, Steve is an insecure nitwit too; half of his ideas are Ashton's with some frills and incoherent musings tacked on, so by glomming onto his "opinion" you make yourself not only a pawn by proxy, but a complete and total idiot to boot. At least when you agree with Ashton you can use the Nuremburg defense like a good Nazi and, to your relative credit, it just looks like you've been coerced into your stupidity; when you agree with Steve, on the other hand, you look like a crazed Shi'ite smuggling uranium into Iraq under your burkha because a voice in your head accompanied by the grizzled visage of Saddam Hussein told you to.
and yet you're the fanatical one about all this.
I could say the same about you with Rick/Expat/Niffweed.
Once again, your arguments mean nothing because they're all association fallacies. The whole point of declaring the mulitude of fallacies is to prevent meaningless arguments like yours.
So you are the only one making yourself out to be an idiot. You can tag me with *ashton* and *steve* as much as you want. Its not going to change the fact that its absolutely false that I am blindly loyal to them, and that you don't have any real arguments at all.
The end is nigh
Actually I think Archon knows what he's talking about more than most people on here.
Honestly I can possibly consider ESFj-Fe. But if that is her type, then it really surprises me how well I can get along with my conflictor on first interaction. I mean.. it felt alot like duality. For what it's worth though, our first interaction ended in me pissing her off through a misunderstanding about my wording something. Then again she was high as fuck and drunk as fuck. So... maybe she is ESFj.. thinking about it more. At the same time, she seemed alot less stupid and annoying to me than someone like Cracka.. who's just a nightmare right off the bat. So I am still not sure about it. Apparently she grew up with her conflictor, INTj ..(according to her). That can alter your personality ..
I've also met ISFps who I've been really attracted to initially.. until later I realize we dont get along. There was this one ISFp girl when I was younger who I was completely obsessed with. So Archon, don't discount your potential for attraction to certain types of ESFps.
I Would need to interact with her more to be sure about things.
Pretty sure her and niffweed are duals. Niffweed being LII is.. something I am also not sure of.
><
i think she was more like a SEE than an ESE. why would she be a caregiver?
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
LIVE AND LET DIE
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp
DCNH: Dominant
--> perhaps Normalizing
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
I dont have an f'in clue. I'm in the process of making a type list. I just fall on the Alpha side as of now for her. The only reason I even posted in this thread was because numbers mentioned that I typed her as such and I wanted to explain why.
If I ended up typing her as ESFp in the future it will really not be a big deal for me because its based on subjectivity as of now.
The end is nigh
lol jake, I wish you were privy to the plethora of threads on the old workshop where I disagreed with expat and rick. Richard dawkins, FDG, joy and discojoe, George H.W. Bush if I remember correctly, a few of the celebrities on Rick's site, I thought Expat might be ILI-Te for a while, my OWN type for a long time...I could go on. As for niffweed, we actually disagree as often as we agree, and Im sure he will be glad to confirm if you have the balls to confirm. We all place substantially different emphasis on typing methods. The only thing I agree with them on implicitly are the basics of the theory theory, which is necessary to ensure that, unlike YOU, we are actually talking about the same thing: Socionics.
As for my so called "fallacies," well, lets just say that I base my conclusions on what I see (you using Ashton's system and citing other people's opinions), and you have yet to show anything to the contrary.
Im split between LSI slightly over ESI, with LSE as a third option, but I do believe Expat had him as LSE last time I checked.
There are major typings we agree on, some we don't, some I just dont care enough about to promote either way, and there are a few of his typings i flat out disagree with. For instance he is under the impression sarinana is Alpha and currently I disagree.
That being said, I do agree with most of his typings (same with Steve). I don't feel I should be ashamed about this because I'm not basing it off anything, but my own intellectual opinion, not social reasons. Why the fuck would I even have social reasons for siding with ashton? If I see merit in his typings, wtf am I going to do? Lie to myself just so you won't rant and rave at me? Isn't that more like a follower than what I do now?
Basically you're saying this:
1) Niffweed and you don't agree about everything, but you're fine because you know socionics basics
2) I agree with Ashton and therefore am barred from even the slightest intellectual respect because I share a similar system with him.
As has been spelled out numerous times, I still agree with the basic premises of the theory, most of what I promote being relatively small changes to the model, tweaks in temperament, and clarification on what terms mean and how to apply behavioral traits from the elements.
The end is nigh
let's clarify this with some real numbers, which fortunately are readily available.
according to gilly's present type list (which is a bit old and probably not reflective of everything you think at the moment), he and i share a % convergence of 69% and a rating of 2.56, so it is probably not the case that we disagree on everything, or that we disagree as much as we agree. likewise, he has an (82%, 2.63) convergence with rick.
however, ashton and archonalarion agree on 56 of their 57 common typings, yielding a convergence of (98%, 4.93)
also worth noting is that ashton, jriddy, strrrng, steve, and archon all have convergence percentages of 94% or greater, except for ashton/jriddy who have 18/21 (86%) convergence (jriddy's list is very old).
only two other list pairs have higher convergences; hotelambush and rick, and hkkmr and jimbean.
even if these numbers are sometimes old and incomplete, the picture they give off is consistent and still highly representative of the situation at hand.
so, yes, in conclusion, it is absolutely correct to say that archonalarion agrees more with the ideas of ashton than it is to say that gilly follows any of my, rick, or expat's ideas (expat has not made a userlist, but skipping the bullshit it would obviously have some differences with gilly's), and indeed, that the community consisting of ashton, archon, steve, strrrng, and jriddy is very ideologically cohesive. there is not much difference really even between the "steve/ashton" list despite their purported disagreements, which so far in terms of community members consist of the typings of allie and dolphin.
whether this high degree of ideological cohesiveness is motivated by ideological fundamentalism or whether it comes across as "a crazed Shi'ite smuggling uranium into Iraq under your burkha" is beyond the realm of what i will publicly speculate about here, though i have discussed the topic of the origin of ashtonian ideology at length elsewhere.
Sure, but then again my typings I have up on wikisocion as of now are also the ones I'm more or less certain on (with the exception of a few). So yes I do have basically identical typings with the users you listed, because I'm more certain of my typings when I am able to discuss them with three people who share a similar system.
*edit: That being said i think I do the most discussion with steve, dolphin, ashton in that order. I would talk to strrrng more but hes in boot camp. I also talk to Brilliand, Gulanzon, and Vero. They do not necessarily agree with my system.
And also, if you could imagine those users were correct about socionics then it would be likely that we'd have similar typings. Many lies one truth.
So will i have less consistency as I continue my list? yeah probably. To the degree you do with Gilly? maybe not.
The end is nigh
You're confusing two different accusations, jake:
1) I am plan on relegating your typology related posts to alt theories because your and ashton's "system" is theoretically incompatible with socionics and your continued participation in socionics serves only to derail conversations in futile attempts at theoretical reconciliation and confuse/mislead newbies.
2) I personally think you are stupid and pathetic because you submit to other peoples opinions in lieu of forming your own and are too limited in your own capacities to recognize the logical dissonance in considering your ideas socionics relevant.
1) Absolutely ridiculous, because its not, and I think your typology is farther from socionics original intent. Even then its just an immature lashing out and piss poor administration.
2) Not at all. That's like saying, "Oh you think political minarchism is the best thing for society? Well then because you read up on Milton Friedman you are his follower and incapable of forming you own opinions."
"Oh you found this typological system by this lithuanian woman and find it useful? Well because you have not made your own system from scratch then you are a follower, incapable of thinking on your own."
Basically, you're being a little bitch about all this.
Last edited by ArchonAlarion; 05-13-2009 at 10:54 PM.
The end is nigh
the point is that the community of people who adhere to the viewpoint that you have adhered to almost invariably continue to agree to extremely large degrees even when they are purported to disagree (as in the case of steve and ashton, for instance). in the absence of any situation where this is not true, i fail to see why your claim that this trend does not apply to you has any basis.
so to speak, we've all been down this road before.
.
On George H.W. Bush: I type him as LSE. I have him listed as such in my LSE list page on wikisocion, and my US presidents list. I haven't yet written down the detailed case there.
On Gilly, Rick, niffweed, myself, etc:
- anyone who cares to can find plenty of discussions on typings, including disagreements that never got resolved, between Rick and myself, on the talk pages of both his and my lists of celebrities. It's all there. Those here who prefer to make assertions without bothering to check whether they're accurate are hopeless anyway.
- I have never bothered to make a formal userlist, for many reasons. Going through Gilly's, his typings I disagree most obviously with are khamelion as Beta NF, implied as IEI, dee as EII (wtf Gilly). I don't necessarily agree with all the others but these are the ones I find most off the mark.
- Going through niffweed's, I have strong disagreements on maybe 2 or 3 cases. Usually I agree on at least his second choice, or his first choices are my own second choices etc. For instance, we both type Ashton as Beta extravert, only he prefers SLE, I prefer EIE, and we both can see why the other option can be argued.
Unfortunately for the purposes of this "discussion", most of my most intense discussions on typings with Gilly or niffweed took place either on a now-defunct previous version of the workshop, or privately. But those between myself and Rick on the wikisocion should serve as an example of where we come from.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
You could say it, if you wanted to make yourself look ridiculous.
LOL I need to update...khamelion is still a border case but I tend to lean SEE these days.
Apart from purely political ones, no
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
Whose original intent? Socionics (or any other model) can't have an "intent" as such. It's rather the people who developed it, or whose who use it, who do.
"Socionics" is not the same as "typology". The creators of (say) MBTI, the enneagram, and Jung himself with his typology will have had their own intents - in Jung's case, simply understanding the different types seems to have been his intent.
But socionics, as a typology, means specifically the model A system created by Augusta (or slight variations thereof), and her intent was very obviously to understand intertype relationships. That's what made her even think of the types, that's what drove her to investigate it further and put it into a system, that's what the whole system is based on. This is not only painfully obvious to those who ever bothered to read what she and the other socionics authors ever wrote (Jung never wrote about socionics, ftr), it is also clear from talking directly with them.
Now, you may well say (as some here have said, often with the indispensable "lol" attached) that you don't care about intertype relationships, or about what those authors wrote, etc. Which is perfectly legitimate, but it is no socionics. It is, at most, "your personal typology influenced by Jungian concepts which for some reason you want to call socionics".
So I ask again, whose "original intent"? And what, exactly, was this "original intent" of what you - bizarrely - still want to refer to as "socionics"?
Last edited by Expat; 05-14-2009 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Typo II
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