Vero 30

[Wynch]

I'm pretty sure this is my third type thread. Questions are being raised by Ephemeros and hkkmr about my type, so I feel they ought to have an opportunity to voice their opinion.

So, if anyone has questions about my type and wants to voice them, feel free! I'd rather discuss it and actually analyze the issue then arbitrarily toss around labels without a good case. That said, if you have impressions you'd like to share, don't be afraid to share them

[1981slater]

ILE-Ti, 7w6, ENTP, aquarius

sorry, Véro: 3/4

[implied]

lady david byrne!

[1981slater]

lady david byrne!

he looks like William Petersen, Grissom

[implied]

he looks like William Petersen, Grissom

i think byrne is INTj, but i think vero is ENTp. and i think 7w6 is a near-perfect enneagram typing for her. i actually think this is way more obvious if you meet her in person, but even online i don't think she makes a bad case for ENTp. she is like personified, IRL.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I don't have an opinion on what type you could be other than ILE. I think though that I don't get as much of an Ne vibe from you as I do from other ILE's, then I don't really see you with dominant Se either, so I suppose Ti sub-type makes sense for you if you are ILE.

I don't really follow much of your postings, but from what I recall reading about you, for instance from forum meet-ups, you seem to fit the socionic extravert pretty well.

Oh, i'm not saying you *aren't* ILE just to clarify. I'm just putting down some thoughts, however irrelevant my thoughts on it are.

[1981slater]

actually, vero is isfp si

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Mattie]

Vero reminds me a lot of my interactions with other NeTi females, so I've never questioned her type. I wanted to bring up a thread about gender differences within types, but maybe I can do it here since I know Vero would mind so much I have a feeling people like Vero, females who are logical types and males who are ethical types, differ from the stereotype of each type distinctively because of (at least) Western (and also maybe non-European?) gender roles and upbringing that was influenced by said gender roles. I feel there's enough of a difference between genders in types because of my relationship with certain genders within certain types: It might be circumstance, but I get along with female NeTi way easier than male NeTi, while I have more friction with female FeNi than male ones. I sometimes think that it's a topic to look into, because it could clear up why some people seem to not fit perfectly or what-not.

[Lotus]

she is like personified, IRL.

lol

Ti-ENTp makes sense and it always has.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[FDG]

May I quote the posts from the other threads here?

The main idea: what makes you guys think she's an ILE? But please bring arguments, not that you just "think". I'm unable to understand what in mn0good statements and general behavior you found to direct towards this type. Preferably refer to the recent past.

C'mon now, you're fucking getting annoying with this shit. You're not an authority over truth, get over your stupid attitude.

[07490]

If mn0good is not an ILE then I must believe that the world is flat.

[Banana Pancakes]

Vero's thought and behavior patterns are highly similar to mine, I've never really met a female who was so similar to me.

Pretty sure we're both ILE-Ti.

[1981slater]

C'mon now, you're fucking getting annoying with this shit. You're not an authority over truth, get over your stupid attitude.

Berlusconi style




Cowboy style

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[1981slater]

Considering the appeal to the majority argument, we will eventually be forced to acknowledge she's an ILE.

interesting!

[Banana Pancakes]

Considering the appeal to the majority argument, we will eventually be forced to acknowledge she's an ILE.

You wanna talk fallacies? You, the one claiming vero is other than the generally accepted typing, have the Burden of Proof, not those who accept her as ILE.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Banana Pancakes]

If our both opinions are based upon fallacies, it means no conclusion can be reached. Therefore no assumption she's an ILE can be done. I though you're smarter, Banana Pancakes.

Your words don't make sense here. It's your job to prove a claim you're making to change something, even if what you're changing is a fallacy. You have to prove it wrong.

But we should start with something. In case missed that thread, the questions we raised were here:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post520655 (until post #57).

Maybe instead of threadjacking that thread you could post your thoughts here? I'm having a hard time find anything logical in there. I see a lot of personal attacks, which I feel violate alpha social norms, coming from you and hkkmr. Yes Gulanzon clearly has weak logic and vero tries hard to be unemotional but...so what?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Banana Pancakes]

It's just argue, argue, argue with you two. Never anything clear proving what you're saying. How about using that supposed Ti of yours and constructing a cohesive, 1 paragraph claim summarizing why it is you think mn0good isn't ILE and what you think she is, why Gulanzon is whatever you claim he is, and whatever else it is you're trying to accomplish.

Splitting hairs isn't productive. Straw men aren't productive. Crap, I said productive twice, now I must be gamma too, huh?

Edit: To be absolutely clear, the points of my posts were:
1. I think Vero is ILE based on my subjective understanding and personal experience being ILE.
2. I have yet to see any clear arguments from epheremos or hkkmr as to Vero's not being ILE. Put it in a paragraph, start with a claim, a few convincing arguments, final summary sentence.
3. I'm not interested in arguing with epheremos or hkkmr. I don't like arguing, I don't find the things you say clear or understandable, and I just don't care enough about the things you want to argue about.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[1981slater]

I'm Vero's Mother.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[07490]

Ephemeros - I'm Vero's Mother. It's obvious, then, I know her very well - online and in person. Over the last 10 years, I've studied the enneagram, socionics and a multitude of topology systems. I can tell you first hand, from witnessing her behaviour since Day 1, that ENTp, Enneagram 7 is the most logical fit.

All you have at your disposal are clipits of postings to base your judgments. You well know it takes more than this to assess someone's type. Unless you've actually met her in person, you really are in no position to make proclamations about her type with any confidence, or, to arrogantly insist that others justify their posiiton.

I would like to say to you that I would like to go on a date with your daughter.

[munenori2]

I'm not sure what it's going to take, ephemeros, for you to feel that an actual argument has been made, or that the fact that many people feel so confident in Vero's ILE typing might involve something as simple as it making the most sense based off of observations far more in depth and pertinent than what little seems to convince you enough to write off those opinions.

And this is ALL anyone here has, so when you start spouting off on the Truth , you might want to contextualize that notion with how any set of reasoning, however valid it may or may not be, MUST take into account how and where it in fact fits the empirical conditions from which you're applying whatever ruleset or deriving some underlying rule or law from, as well as all the possible data you're totally missing out on (any student of socionics I think would feel that last thing the most keenly). A lot's been tossed around lately by some people that confidence in one's intellectual opinions and beliefs implies or befits a kind of intellectual arrogance, while also insisting at the same time that their concerns are for the truth of the matter. How silly is that, maintaining that you care about what is true or is not true but tying your ego to the things you state, and closing oneself off from the avenues of thought opened up by realizing how evasive the truth actually is. It's all well and nice to be confident in what you think and why you think it, but the moment it removes from you the intellectual humility one might infer from their smallness in the universe, and as a tiny piece of everything that goes on around you, then I think you've traded the awe of seeing all the wonder that lies in discovering the enormity of things which we can only hope to know or comprehend for what's given merely by what's in front of your face and the self satisfaction of insisting on these as teh facts.

Anyway, that's a huge philosophical dealio that's sort of another topic completely. I'm going to try to point out where Vero has seemed to exhibit behaviors and processes indicating ILE, with some references and anecdotes (since we met at the New York meet earlier this year). I'd like to preface this by saying this is taking a lot of time for me since I'm trying to make this as formal and unambiguous as possible. Basically, I think there's enough to this typing that I'll even stomp on my Sunday happiness to write out a paper quality kind of thing. Are you happy now?!

So I guess I have that to look forward to.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Banana Pancakes]

Vero's mom is taking care of business!

[munenori2]

edit: Refering to what hk said in the non popcorn post

I don't know if that's the way things are really. There's some truth to it, def, but I think there are very good reasons for thinking Vero is ILE. Seeing her as valuing Se/Ni is extremely difficult for me to grasp where that comes from and, given that I think the only two types eph has proposed have been LSI and LIE, I'd need more than what I've seen him lay out so far (presenting a moral concern, which I think he's taken an odd way in viewing it as moral, or her rationality, which is harder for me to swallow) to make those tenable having known and met Vero. I don't remember if you had any alternative types in mind, hk, though I'm perfectly fine when people just have skepticism over a type or even simply having a different opinion without claiming that their opinion is right unless people prove them wrong (the difference I think is saying you will believe something until you're given reason to believe otherwise and saying that you have the correct view until others prove that they deserve to believe anything contrary).

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Wynch]

*sighs*

Ephemeros, you missed the point of this thread. I don't have questions about my type, I'm fairly confident that I'm an ILE. The reason I made this thread was for people like you, who want to raise a question about my type, can state your case. I mean, you might even have a convincing case. But if you're going to make bold statements not only calling me deluded in my self-typing, but calling the members of the forum hypocrites for not coming out with my true self-typing, then you should back that up.

If people doubt my typing then they should just say so. I don't have problems with people questioning my type, and the last couple of times serious question has been raised about my type, I made a thread about it. I don't want to shut down conversation or the exploration of ideas. However, if people want to make a claim, then they need to back up that claim. And if you want to claim that people here KNOW that I'm not the type I say I am, and they're somehow afraid to confront me about it, then you should be able to back it up.

So, with that said, you may wish to explain under what conditions LIE or LSI makes sense as my typing. It's not for other people to do (unless they agree, in which case they should feel completely free to express that opinion). I'm not close-minded. I'll talk about it.

@hkkmr I have no idea what your opinion is on my type, actually. I just noticed that you seemed to be agreeing with ephemeros, so I thought you could use a chance to elaborate.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Wynch]

- I am not sure of your type, I just told what I was thinking about, before
- You show those characteristics incompatible with an ILE, if we take the theory literally; you have the opportunity you're asking for, for a long time: answer the questions I asked to your mom (and don't forget to check Gulanzon's "IEI" thread, some reasons are there, and important). I don't know why you did not address them in the first place.

My issue is that you seem incredibly sold on the idea that I am not an ENTp. You don't really provide me with much proof about being not-ENTp, but you insist that I'm so obviously not ENTp that I'm deluded to think so. On top of that, your proposals for alternatives seem to have very little foundation.

As for those questions, I'll address them now:

how can you explain she's so rational? I doubt you can deny she's organized, determined, calculated, possibly punctual, etc. Do you know how it feels like being an ILE? But feel free to explain the contrary.

I'm not organized. I can be determined. I'm calculating, though generally without malice. I'm punctual.
Are these things inherently rational? I hope not, since they're traits I certainly see in others as well. Would you say that an ESTp is determined and calculating? I would. As for punctual, punctuality is a societal necessity. If I'm late for my doctor's appointment, then they charge me for being late. If I'm late for work, then I risk losing my job. This being said, it's a characteristic of mine to live life without a schedule and without a plan. When I went to New York, I made my plans last minute and had no real plan of action when I got there. I learned the subway system after I was already there and basically adapted whenever there was a roadblock. Recently I moved to a new apartment. I didn't book an elevator until the week I moved, and when it came to arranging the movement of my stuff, I basically shrugged my shoulders and let it all fall into place. Even now my room is in continued disarray. I still lack most groceries, haven't unpacked most of my clothes. Nevertheless, I've been here for a week.

- how can you explain the moral values she showed in that IEI thread? Those are Fi values which an ILE would (and does) neglect.

Two things. First, I still feel you misinterpreted what I was saying in that thread. I was trying to explain to you how you'd misunderstood Gulanzon's point about community. On top of that, I elaborated on his point with my own, which was that you need to earn my intellectual respect before I'll give it to you. In other words, you need to present a valid case for me to listen to you, because I have no reason to feel that your opinion is worthwhile unless you demonstrate that it is.

Second, I feel that it is not necessarily true that someone has to neglect their PoLR. Part of being a mature individual is understanding your weaknesses and learning to cope with them. Personally, I don't feel that Fi is a strong suit of mine. It makes me extremely uncomfortable to deal with or witness, and more often than not in makes me frustrated and confused. Does that mean I ignore it? No. But it doesn't mean I'm in any way proficient therein.

- If you accuse me of something, please point to the posts I've written that. I admit calling you deluded, but not for nothing. I also don't remember to call others "hypocrites" because of you.

Right after you called me deluded:

I'm telling this to you for your own sake. Look for your true type, because you'll have problems in the future being so deluded, especially when you'll want to enter a long term relationship. Maybe some other people you trust here would be able to help you, because you don't trust me, but I'm afraid these people (who I can think of) are too hypocrite to admit the truth, they wouldn't want to contradict you. It's rude, they would become automatically jackasses!

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Creepy-Cyclops]

Hmm.. I'm getting mixed signals about all this.

I don't have time to make a big post, I may have time later.

You seem to me like LIE is a possibility. You have intuition but it comes across as more linear than tangential, you seem to move forwards and backwards when making your points. I am on my cell phone just now so I can't quote various things to hi-light this. However, contrast with hkkmr, ephemoros and Vibration who's points move out in different directions then meet up. I think in this context that you show a lot of Ni in your posts.

It does actually seem like a characteristic of you to moralise every so often, which could be Fi valueing. Expat seems to do something similar from what i've read of him.

I also think that your posts in general remind me a lot of Expat's, who's an LIE.

I didn't see anything in the questions you answered to ephemeros a couple of posts up that would contradict LIE as a typing, hmm.

Like I said, I am not able to pull through quotes just now, but another thing; I am not really in the mood to invest too much personal time or indeed energy into this thread. So my comments, you can take them constructively and answer them if you wish, because really you can call yourself whatever type you want, and you could be ILE anyway!

Edit: I wanted to address this; Are you are taking this thread seriously? I'm honestly getting mixed signals over this.

[munenori2]

I'm of course slotted in the same room with him so I have to do what I can to make sure both of us don't get gassed by the "Forum Community Consensus Committee", especially with Gulazon and his whole get the two of us out of Alpha threads.

That's pretty foolish, imo (alpha boot threads). I think you're both more similar to SLE if being Ti subs means that, but I think you're both alpha (slightly less confident on ephemeros, but Ti/Fe seems a given). Also I don't think of you two as in the same 'room'. Most of this I think has to do with ephemeros popping around lately to lay down the law, so to speak, without making enough sense to match how sure he is about what he thinks.

There is no need of any respect to address facts. Even more, it conflicts with that "Alpha easygoingness", which you and the "official" forum group insists on. I actually came in relaxed and open, just to wake up against a wall of moral admonishment. This attitude is actually hostile to Alphas.

If someone has or is perceived to have falsely called wolf numerous times and calls it again, people might not respect his assertion of the fact that a wolf is all up in his grill, when that fact is the thing that is up for discussion in the first place. After all, he might be like totally deluded and might mistakenly think a sheep dog is a wolf, as this makes sense to him according to what he sees and interprets. This is not a moral assessment. Just like you used FDG's positive post on hkkmr as being typically well reasoned and correct as support for the viewpoint of someone who 'has your back', Vero's point in her statement was the negative side of the same point. If you're generally found to reason poorly people will in the future not take you that seriously.

1. I agree that unpacking stuff is ILE most than anything.

BUT!
2.The previous data you provided contradicts this:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post501812
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post501860
...and clearly pictures you a rational.
Check!
One of the two POVs is a lie. You have the occasion to admit which one. I promise you I won't accuse you of anything, just want to make up my mind.

That or you're taking things too seriously again without realizing that apparent inconsistencies are reconciliable. I realize you're asking for resolution here, but insinuating that one must be a lie and that there's not a way for the two to fit together is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?