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Thread: Si in the Context of Hygiene, Culinary Skill, Comfort, & Other Basic Human Things

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    Default Si in the Context of Hygiene, Culinary Skill, Comfort, & Other Basic Human Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Si role

    I stink therefore I am. Constant problems with hygiene because it's a chore and I can't really be bothered.

    I'm also not a natural cook. (Against Si having globality dimension (being Base function).)

    Discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamajama View Post
    Gul, this is just getting sad.

    I'll be frank, I do not have the best hygiene at times, but I suppose that comes with the territory of being a teenage guy eh. I don't comb my hair ever and my clothes don't match.

    I cannot cook well either, even though I have cooked food before.
    In contrast:
    • I am very, very clean.
    • I dress well. My clothes match.
    • I am an excellent cook (and so is my SLE father and LSI sister).

    So what, does that make me “more Si” than the supposed Si-leadings? No. Now could we please stop associating strong and/or valued Si with these traits?

    I value hygiene and a good meal. I like clothes that are coordinated well. I enjoy men that don't dress like jackasses. I love music and comfortable beds.

    Simultaneously: I have bed-head 90% of the time because it looks best that way. I hate guys that put effort into their appearances (i.e., don't fucking style your hair—at all, stubble is nice so don't get anal over it, please don't take longer than I do to get ready because it's weird, etc.). I like caffeine and other stimulants. I can (and often do) go two to three days without eating, drinking, or sleeping. I hate calming down. I hate being uncomfortable for the sake of looking good. I hate people who try too hard to maintain a look.

    And I would argue that none of this has anything to do with weak or strong Si.




    P.S. If you burn toast it means you're incompetent, not Si PoLR.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    And your point?
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    I think Si has more to do with moaning during a hot shower than anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    In contrast:
    • I am very, very clean.
    • I dress well. My clothes match.
    • I am an excellent cook (and so is my SLE father and LSI sister).

    So what, does that make me “more Si” than the supposed Si-leadings? No. Now could we please stop associating strong and/or valued Si with these traits?

    I value hygiene and a good meal. I like clothes that are coordinated well. I enjoy men that don't dress like jackasses. I love music and comfortable beds.

    Simultaneously: I have bed-head 90% of the time because it looks best that way. I hate guys that put effort into their appearances (i.e., don't fucking style your hair—at all, stubble is nice so don't get anal over it, please don't take longer than I do to get ready because it's weird, etc.). I like caffeine and other stimulants. I can (and often do) go two to three days without eating, drinking, or sleeping. I hate calming down. I hate being uncomfortable for the sake of looking good. I hate people who try too hard to maintain a look.

    And I would argue that none of this has anything to do with weak or strong Si.




    P.S. If you burn toast it means you're incompetent, not Si PoLR.
    Lol, and thank you.
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    Mmm I'm Si PoLR and I'm a pretty good cook, I think. I wouldn't go days without sleeping or eating, though. I would feel like i was going to die. (ps. this post is not meant to make sense)
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    I'm going to go with either "It's unrelated" or "It's a teenage boy thing."

    I am meticulously fastidious about all forms of hygiene. This includes myself, my room, any food I may prepare, making sure even the dog is clean enough to be cuddled, everything.

    And I'm a great cook and have been cooking since I can remember.
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post

    I can (and often do) go two to three days without eating, drinking, or sleeping. I hate calming down.
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    Well actually I'm wondering about this too. These associations often do seem to make Si into a non-function or something... And these things are basics (like food, water, shelter, etc.). If there is a convenient way to meet the basics humans will find it (and we've been moving to making these things increasingly convenient and less time consuming for a long time so we don't have to spend all day eating grass like cattle do just to meet our daily nutrition requirements). Anyway, I've felt that Si must get at something deeper, either that or the other functions must get at something shallower. Either way.

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    Si's purpose is to be Ne's bitch, duh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Well actually I'm wondering about this too. These associations often do seem to make Si into a non-function or something... And these things are basics (like food, water, shelter, etc.). If there is a convenient way to meet the basics humans will find it (and we've been moving to making these things increasingly convenient and less time consuming for a long time so we don't have to spend all day eating grass like cattle do just to meet our daily nutrition requirements). Anyway, I've felt that Si must get at something deeper, either that or the other functions must get at something shallower. Either way.
    You are right on track as usual lol.

    Si is just as deep, complex, and multi-realm applicable as any other element.

    I've described it before in detail...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    You are right on track as usual lol.

    Si is just as deep, complex, and multi-realm applicable as any other element.

    I've described it before in detail...
    Is this a sarcastic remark? Dogs spitting up yellow pus disconcert me sometimes!

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    No man, not at all. You often reason out exactly what im going to say or what I want people to get. It was a compliment
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    making sure even the dog is clean enough to be cuddled, everything.
    See, that's something that while I would never think to do myself, but would appreciate. A really smelly dog is a pretty gross thing, and it's so great to hug a dog who is clean and fluffy. I sometimes wonder how often dogs need to be cleaned to maintain that and it gives me a headache.

    However, I knew of an ISFp who wasn't clean.

    I think it depends on what things the Si person thinks are "gross."
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    For delta ST's, the Si can display itself in taking care of the practical matters of the relationship. This can be doing the tax returns, making sure the bills are paid, building kitchens and maintaining such structural integrities of the house. If need be it can be in terms of cooking, such as making sure the kids have breakfast in the morning and making sure they sure they go to school on time each day.

    In the workplace it is an invaluable tool for taking care of the details with no fuss or showboating. Si sees things for what they are.

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    When my husband cooks, he's pretty good at it, but he usually just complains that he's hungry and wants me to cook.

    Si is about awareness of physical states and how objects interact with each other. That COULD show up in cooking ability and hygiene, but not necessarily. Comfort is more applicable to Si than hygiene and culinary skill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    Si is about awareness of physical states and how objects interact with each other.
    I think the idea of this thread is to move away from black box descriptions. It's perhaps about explaining such things in actual real terms
    That COULD show up in cooking ability and hygiene, but not necessarily. Comfort is more applicable to Si than hygiene and culinary skill.
    Comfort is not necessarily of course the be all and end all of Si, although it certainly can be a guiding result on a personal level (personal including those that they care about which can mean themselves or others in a caregiving capacity). In such a case it is the physical manifestation of what results in physical comfort, which can come from a lot of hard work which on the face of it sounds in contrast to comfort.

    If you observe for instance LSE's in the workplace, people wouldn't necessarily equate what they do and how they tend to push themselves and others with making themselves or their staff comfortable.

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    ^ OMGOSH. Is this Cyclops' first non-retarded post?

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    My impression.....Si is about harmonizing with your surroundings, both in the environment and mentally.

    Si seekers seem to appreciate people providing things for them to immerse themselves into an environment. Like being supplied with a blanket, warm milk and cookies to watch a dvd on a winter's night. Or complimenting them on what they're wearing for a night out. Or mentally relaxing them by illustrating the insignificance of their frazzle-ness with reminders of the simple things that life surrounds them with.

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    I think the problem with Si is that it is such a personal function for me, nearly everything is internal.

    But getting my friends to eat food is Si+Fe embodied. (:
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    Nice post Isha. I think it seems that for the needs that you mentioned, at least when attending to others, that SiTe types focus more on realising things from a more practical application for others, and for those with SiFe (or vica versa for the two ego functions in both cases) it is more for realising things from a more emotion creating perspective, although I think the two can sometimes overlap, it's more an observable trend.

    I'm aware I could have worded this better perhaps, but I thought I would post incase it helps some of the Si with Fe types who have posted.

    For instance, I think Kam enjoys getting his friends to eat because it's setting an emotional atmosphere with his friends; it's part of the package with how he'd interact with it. Delta ST's are not unconcerned with emotional needs, but it doesn't always seem to others that it's something they are considering when they do such things, and the application of their Si is therefore different etc.

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    yeah great post isha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post

    is about what you need (you could contrast it with the idea of being about what you "want").
    That sums it up nicely. Love it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    For delta ST's, the Si can display itself in taking care of the practical matters of the relationship. This can be doing the tax returns, making sure the bills are paid, building kitchens and maintaining such structural integrities of the house. If need be it can be in terms of cooking, such as making sure the kids have breakfast in the morning and making sure they sure they go to school on time each day.

    In the workplace it is an invaluable tool for taking care of the details with no fuss or showboating. Si sees things for what they are.
    ISTps don't mind paying taxes? my god. I stress every month of the year about the impending doom of having to fill that thing out, even if I hire someone (regardless of how "easy" my friends say my return should be. Whenever I question duality, I should re-read this post about delta STs not minding doing taxes. I also can't be trusted to make sure I eat breakfast, let alone make someone else eats it, so the other things on the list are also good. This may sound sarcastic in written form, but it's not. It almost doesn't seem like a fair trade...all that practical useful stuff in exchange for what? Some Ne and Fi to make some silly jokes about otters or perhaps imitate a silly dance, or know how close of a friend my friend is? lol.

    So it seems delta STs can do all the things an ISTj can do, only better (for me). I know this all "in theory" but I forget the actual application sometimes.
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    Sometimes even I wonder what in the world Si and Te sees in us Ne and Fi types. I'm just grateful that they do see something.

    I actually find myself getting more 'caregiver' like around Ni types though.

    Good post, Isha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Sometimes even I wonder what in the world Si and Te sees in us Ne and Fi types. I'm just grateful that they do see something.

    I actually find myself getting more 'caregiver' like around Ni types though.

    Good post, Isha.
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    But doesn't all of that seem degrading? The Si leading person is supposed to handle all the practical (and boring) affairs? Like having a personal servant who's all too happy to do taxes, or cook, or wash dishes? What? That does not make sense to me for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    But doesn't all of that seem degrading? The Si leading person is supposed to handle all the practical (and boring) affairs? Like having a personal servant who's all too happy to do taxes, or cook, or wash dishes? What? That does not make sense to me for some reason.
    maybe a Si person could comment on that? I would doubt they would feel that way, any more than I would feel like a hired clown for entertaining someone with Ne. But I could be wrong...
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    Isha, very well put. Clear, concise, logical. Your posts are motivating me to check out socionics workshop again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    That's not really what I was saying.
    I was reacting/responding to posts #29 and #32 mostly. Then your last post appeared "suddenly" after I hit reply, and since jewels and ephemeros responded to my post afterwards, I decided against editing it to properly represent where I meant it in the post sequence...

    All that aside, I don't know why I have difficulty wrapping my head around this. But I did find what you just said helpful, as well as your previous posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    My impression.....Si is about harmonizing with your surroundings, both in the environment and mentally.
    Yes. Si, like Se, is essentially a psychological state of mind, but is centered around achieving equilibrium between one's inner state and external environment. Not just an act of "relaxation." Si is not limited to the human body and can even be observed.

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    Si seekers seem to appreciate people providing things for them to immerse themselves into an environment. Like being supplied with a blanket, warm milk and cookies to watch a dvd on a winter's night. Or complimenting them on what they're wearing for a night out. Or mentally relaxing them by illustrating the insignificance of their frazzle-ness with reminders of the simple things that life surrounds them with.
    Not necessarily.

    Synchronization with one's environment also manifests through rearranging and modifying objects within one's immediate physical space for the purpose of convenience and functionality, or "flow." This is also why "cleaning" or "tidying up" have become false Si stereotypes.

    Expat once wrote a very accurate Si description while erroneously attributing it to Ni. I'll repost the gist of it with just some minor alterations in language.

    Si types

    Si types perceive reality as a flow that is taking them -- somewhere, but the final destination is less a central part of their perception than the flow itself.

    Let us imagine a boat sailing gently down a river. Si types are on an observation deck of the boat. They feel best when they know that the voyage is proceeding at the right speed and along the desired route- however, should there be an unexpected change in the route and a secondary river be taken, the Si types immediately adjust to that and are now immersing in the flow of the new route. Transition is managed without stress.

    The ISTp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the ISTp knows that there are no obstacles - the boat's machines are running smoothly, the water level will remain adequate, all the harbors will be open and with the desired supplies. As long as the information on such matters is satisfactory, the ISTp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The ISTp is not particularly concerned with the other people on the boat. However, the ISTp does need a trusted companion who will deal with them (if necessary) and will help the ISTp to actually deal with the obstacles perceived by the ISTp. That companion is the ENFp, who probably was also the one to get the ISTp on board in the first place.
    Steve also did a really good job of explaining the perspective of an Si-super id below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    Si is much more abstract than is typically portrayed. It has NOTHING to do with washing hands, doing laundry, cleaning, etc. Remember that functions are about HOW you do things and not WHAT you do.

    I'll describe my experience with Si as a type where Si is quite pronounced.

    Si for me is about flow, and what fits into my flow and what doesn't. If you look at Si in terms of the information elements, you have Si = external field dynamics. What this means is that someone like me is gonna be really into being in harmony with my environment (the external field around me) (Ni is an internal field, so Ni types will want to get in harmony with the internal field around them).

    For example, as I'm going through my day, it all seems to have a flow, an abstract essence that characterizes the day or given time period, and as I experience each moment, and think about what to do next, or what is coming next in the day, I will know very keenly what fits into my "essence" of the day.

    Another example is that certain places seem to have music that fits perfectly with them. Since I was very young, I would always think of certain places that would go with certain songs. I mean even when I first heard Kenny G's trademark song "Songbird" when I was young, (and I DO listen to more sophisticated music than Kenny G but I've always liked a few songs of his lol) it made me think of the New York City skyline from a very generalized far away perspective, like I can't quite describe this, cause I had always associated New York City with being sophisticate, shining with bright lights, and a very smooth overall feel it gave me, like there was plenty to explore, and when I first heard that song, it was much different than typical songs I heard on the radio, this one seemed a bit more dreamy, reflective, etc. I may sound like I'm freely associating here, but its hard for me to explain that specific example.

    Sort of like this kind of a scene:


    Or even something like this, where there is this brilliance and color of the lights, like the bright tone of his saxophone across a very smooth harmonic background like that, in the way that the scene comes together harmoniously for me.



    Again, you may not get the same out of it that I did, but that's part of the point. An aspect of Si is also fairly personal, since the idea of Si is becoming one with the field, or in harmony with the field. The field with Si being external.The reason I got what I got out of that song is because it fit into MY flow, into some feeling that had context for me.

    This may sound incoherent, but this is how I sorta think in a given minute with Si: "I'm here, computer in front of me, air conditioner blowing, 6:48, getting late, see sun starting to go down, I should get out of what I slept in, where am I gonna be tomorrow, how's that gonna blend, (I see how I will transition from this state of mind into where I'm going to be tomorrow and what I'm going to be doing), I had a late breakfast/lunch, where, what will I eat and when so it'll feel just right at just the right point to make my day/night seem smooth." (Basically all of these awarenesses revolve around a core essence that Si seeks to make everything fall in harmony with).

    Also if I just reached a new level with person that gets worked into my Si "Oh yeah, I'm like THAT now with them, I'm living now with a new level of relationship. I have that added color in my life flow".

    Oh I wanted to add, and I haven't figured out if this is Si related or Fe related for me (prolly Si), but to me looking at the towers of different bridges, each bridge seems to give off a different "face" in terms of the design, and a different personality, and even the angle that I look at it gives off a different personal feel to me.

    For example, with this particular bridge, looking at it straight on gives me a certain feel:


    While looking at it from another angle gives me a different feel:


    And actually I just realized, I would have preferences to want to take certain bridges over others even if it made no difference travel wise, because certain bridges had a certain feel associated with them for me, and I'd like it better than others. Actually when I was really young I'd go so far as to say that if my family ended up taking the adjacent bridge to the one I really liked, I felt that I was missing out, as I could see the other bridge from the adjacent one, and I sorta got the feeling that I was "missing out on the party". I know this sounds ridiculous, but I think this is kinda how Si works. Si can be VERY personal, and as you can see, it can be very abstract - I can attach contextual meaning to things that are clearly not there if looked upon through an objective lens.

    And if you're curious how Ne works for me, I used it to come up with that phrase just now "missing out on the party" cause ultimately, Ne can search through Si or whatever contexts for matches in concepts. In this case the concept was "feeling like I'm missing the experience of the other bridge", so I took the concept of "feeling like I'm missing out on something good", and used Ne to search for a match of something in another life situation that yielded a similar feeling. "feeling like I'm missing the experience of the other bridge" is one object, and "missing out on the party" is another object. Ne = internal object statics - ie draw connections between the internal object statics. See how it works?

    I hope this helps, even tho it may seem abstract.
    I cannot speak for ISFps, but I highly doubt most ISTps have any interest in providing milk and cookies as a base motivation.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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  36. #36
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    I cannot speak for ISFps, but I highly doubt most ISTps have any interest in providing milk and cookies as a base motivation.
    It's not a base motivation but I wouldn't mind doing it sometimes.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  37. #37
    Creepy-male

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    I want to pour affection into things.

    Nes want to have affection poured into them.

    Also Nes are the most fun it's humanly possible to have. It sounds like servitude for the Caregiver, but it's really symbiosis o:

  38. #38
    ~~rubicon~~ Rubicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    maybe a Si person could comment on that? I would doubt they would feel that way, any more than I would feel like a hired clown for entertaining someone with Ne. But I could be wrong...
    Yeah, I certainly don't feel that way with Ne people .. though I can with other types. It sounds silly when I try to explain the difference though .. so w/e. What Isha said about empathising with people with unmet needs..

    An example could be last week when I was staying at my SLI and ILE/IEE brothers' place. I cooked because I like doing it .. and my Ne brother would come in and ask if he could help, and ask questions, make suggestions, say it was awesome and stuff lol, and generally make it a fun process .. while my SLI brother would go "thanks!" and head off to his room until it was ready. Not that I cared in the scheme of things .. but it feels different doing things for my SLI brother because it's mainly just about laziness on his part. He might appreciate it, but he could do it just as easily himself if he cared to. Which is how I feel when people do those sorts of things for me. I just get lazy and start taking the people for granted.

    But gah .. I didn't mean to associate Si with food preparation again.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

  39. #39
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    ISTps don't mind paying taxes? my god. I stress every month of the year about the impending doom of having to fill that thing out, even if I hire someone (regardless of how "easy" my friends say my return should be. Whenever I question duality, I should re-read this post about delta STs not minding doing taxes. I also can't be trusted to make sure I eat breakfast, let alone make someone else eats it, so the other things on the list are also good. This may sound sarcastic in written form, but it's not. It almost doesn't seem like a fair trade...all that practical useful stuff in exchange for what? Some Ne and Fi to make some silly jokes about otters or perhaps imitate a silly dance, or know how close of a friend my friend is? lol.

    So it seems delta STs can do all the things an ISTj can do, only better (for me). I know this all "in theory" but I forget the actual application sometimes.
    Ha, well, i've heard something similar from ENFp's, although not related to this particular conversation per se. You guys doing what you do, like you described..being able to smooth over interpersonal relationships, give interpersonal advice, cheer others up, other (seems to me new, different) things [maybe you don't realise this as it is intrinsic in it's own way], basically do things as you do them/describe (I don't want to elaborate too much in this post) but you being who you are, makes me want to do such things more.

    On the converse, I see what I can do as somewhat mundane, like anyone can do these things. But it galvanises me to do it more when it's for someone who appreciates it, and the sort of person you describe as yourself sounds pretty on the mark.

    It's the old thing that we see our ego functions, their abilities as ordinary, but it's really two sides of the same darn coin for duality and such.

    OK, got to go, am waiting on a few mates turning up at this beer garden, and for some reason we have a nice day in Scotland

    Quick edit: the things we can do can seem lacking in emotion to others, sort of cold but taking care of the practical things, the facts etc, but ENFp's (and delta NF's) bring the emotional side into play, which for me and other delta ST's I know is great. Just be who you are; seems fine to me.

    lol, this post probably isn't as informative as other posts on this thread, but i've made it, there it stands. (until I perhaps decide to edit it later into something else, ha)
    Last edited by Cyclops; 05-11-2009 at 06:35 PM.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    Expat once wrote a very accurate Si description while erroneously attributing it to Ni. I'll repost the gist of it with just some minor alterations in language.
    To avoid possible misunderstandings, the whole "boat" thing is a metaphor for the perception of life itself. The moment it refers to a real boat, then it's not Ni anymore.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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