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Thread: Easy way to memorize the + and - elements

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    Default Easy way to memorize the + and - elements

    Remember that the first element of the function block will be opposite of the second element. Ex ILEs first block is + -.

    However for memorization purposes, just focus on the first element of each function block, the main and dominant elements as you normally know them 1-8.

    J elements ()
    N types have +F -T elements
    S types have -F +T elements

    P elements ()
    Alphas and Gammas have +N +S elements
    Betas and Deltas have -N -S elements

    I'm not really sure how accurate the functional revise is, but I noticed this pattern, so I wanted to share it with anyone who cares.

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    Also, if anyone would like to discuss this idea shown here, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Also, if anyone would like to discuss this idea shown here, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.
    Most of that work is based on erroneous empirical correlations.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Most of that work is based on erroneous empirical correlations.
    I just often see people use it and wonder as to why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I just often see people use it and wonder as to why.
    They're actually using this. The one you quoted is a hypothesis by a user on the forum, which comes to lots of very odd conclusions about functions, types and quadras based on the guy's personal observations. IMO he does have some interesting things to say if you're willing to sift through it.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    They're actually using this. The one you quoted is a hypothesis by a user on the forum, which comes to lots of very odd conclusions about functions, types and quadras based on the guy's personal observations. IMO he does have some interesting things to say if you're willing to sift through it.
    But the Model A is the same idea as this one, where the definitions are from a collection of new and old ideas, right?

    Can it be used with typing people? For instance, if it seems like this girl I know has both and and I can't seem to figure out which one is her primary, given she's an SFJ, I can say she seems more + and - and so that would give the implication of an ISFj. Is this close to plausable?

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    The difference between Ego block plus and minus is like the difference between ENFjs and ESFjs - this plus and minus stuff is redundant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    The difference between Ego block plus and minus is like the difference between ENFjs and ESFjs - this plus and minus stuff is redundant.
    Yes I already know that, but I'm talking specifically about using this page.

    Since an ISFj would have - and + in the ego, these would be noticeable versions right? where as the super Id - and + would be hidden/weak/seeking?

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    Well I personally think that it's better to think of things in terms of Gamma Fi versus Alpha Fe or whatever. This plus and minus stuff (with the minuses) gives negative connotations to things, and it might also cause people like hitta to think that it's the true way of seeing the types, when in actual fact, nothing has changed.

    Ego block -Fi in ISFjs is Gamma Fi...and ISFjs have Ego block +Fe because they have Id -Fe...I just think it's better to recognise that ISFjs have Ego block Gamma Fi, and Id block Gamma Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Well I personally think that it's better to think of things in terms of Gamma Fi versus Alpha Fe or whatever. This plus and minus stuff (with the minuses) gives negative connotations to things, and it might also cause people like hitta to think that it's the true way of seeing the types, when in actual fact, nothing has changed.
    So I'm mistaken. I thought you said these + and - s were the difference between types of the same primary function.

    The difference between Ego block plus and minus is like the difference between ENFjs and ESFjs - this plus and minus stuff is redundant.
    Wouldn't it then be an accurate way of typing people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Ego block -Fi in ISFjs is Gamma Fi...and ISFjs have Ego block +Fe because they have Id -Fe...I think it's just better to recognise that ISFjs have Ego block Gamma Fi, and Id block Gamma Fe.
    So it's not really so accurate or obvious to say that + is in their ego then. Why is - in the Id more recognizable than + in the ego? + ego would give the impression of an ENFj of course, even though - is the primary function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    So I'm mistaken. I thought you said these + and - s were the difference between types of the same primary function.
    ESFjs and ENFjs appear to have a different kind of Ego block Fe to each other because their secondary fucntions are different. The pluses and minuses are assigned after the fact...so it could be an accurate way of typing people if you recognise this. But memorising how the quadras and the dual-pairs manifest is more important than memorising all the pluses and minuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    So it's not really so accurate or obvious to say that + is in their ego then. Why is - in the Id more recognizable than + in the ego? + ego would give the impression of an ENFj of course, even though - is the primary function.
    It's not really inaccurate...it's just that Model A has eight functions, and it is more efficient not to have this plus and minus business. -Fe in the Id is not more recognisable than +Fe in the Ego...the thing with Model A is that once the Ego block functions have been defined, all the other function placements have been defined as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    But memorising how the quadras and the dual-pairs manifest is more important than memorising all the pluses and minuses.
    Of course, but this is all after the fact. Technically speaking you could evaluate -, + first, then go on to the quadras and such, it'd still be a holistic approach.

    I'm asking myself the question, how would one define ISFj + and ESFj +? When would they take place etc. There is obviously some kind of difference I'm trying to figure out.

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    As far as I know, -Fi in the ego block implies +Fe in the id block. This means an ESI has dominant -Fi with an undercurrent of +Fe, giving her certain EIE-like qualities when she uses her id functions. I don't know how useful it is in your case since an ESE can superficially resembles an EIE and vice versa.

    hitta's model (which iirc he says he got from Bukalov) uses something similar to all that but slightly more complicated. According to him, an ESI would have a large compound function "-Fi/+Fe" in the ego, so both functions are constantly present, and "-Fe/+Fi" is in the id.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Of course, but this is all after the fact. Technically speaking you could evaluate -, + first, then go on to the quadras and such, it'd still be a holistic approach.
    That is not how Model A was formed, but you could do that. Surely it would be better to create 16 new functions than to use the current 8 function model and have + and - variants though?

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I'm asking myself the question, how would one define ISFj + and ESFj +? When would they take place etc. There is obviously some kind of difference I'm trying to figure out.
    I think it would be more useful to understand how each function manifests differently in each Model A block position. The Ego block functions are expressed the most, for example.

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    Well I agree with all of that. Thanks.

    And jrx, I didn't know that hitta's model was different than the original. I wonder why.

    That's why I said that all Ss have -F for both blocks. But apparently your version, which I don't know the source of, is mirrored at the ego axis (of hitta/Bukalov's).

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Well I agree with all of that. Thanks.

    And jrx, I didn't know that hitta's model was different than the original. I wonder why.

    That's why I said that all Ss have -F for both blocks. But apparently your version, which I don't know the source of, is mirrored at the ego axis (of hitta/Bukalov's).
    Yeah, I was thinking there was something suspect with hitta's chart (presuming that each type's Model A functions are presented in the standard way) - for example, ESFjs have + in the Ego block, not -.

    You may find the article here useful (needs translating if you can't read Russian).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    - for example, ESFjs have + in the Ego block, not -.


    That's not what http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...Plus_and_minus says.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    You may find the article here useful (needs translating if you can't read Russian)
    Thank you

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    From Plus and minus: - Wikisocion

    ESE - EIE +
    LII - LSI +
    IEE - ILE +
    SLI - SEI +
    LIE - LSE +
    ESI - EII +
    SLE - SEE +
    IEI - ILI +

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    From Plus and minus: - Wikisocion

    ESE - EIE +
    LII - LSI +
    IEE - ILE +
    SLI - SEI +
    LIE - LSE +
    ESI - EII +
    SLE - SEE +
    IEI - ILI +
    Hmm, that disagrees with the article I posted. But in that Functional Revise wiki article and the socionics.org article, + seems to be describing ESFj Ego block Fe, not ENFj Ego block Fe.

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    all result types have "-" leading functions. so ESE is among them.

    dynamic and "-" is positivist.
    dynamic and "+" is negativist. damn counter-intuitiveness.

    on the other hand,
    static and "-" is negativist.
    static and "+" is positivst.
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    It seems to only talk about types at the bottom

    and I have no idea which types it's talking about, nor do they explain what the blocks look like:

    The sign description of functions

    The analysis spent by Gulenko, allows to reveal more "thin" structure of mental functions of one kind. So, "black ethics" Hamlet differ from Hugo similar function a little. It has allocated this distinction by means of signs + and-. "Decoding" of these differences (what function for what "answers") is more low resulted:


    1. "Black" ethics, ethics of emotions etikB.gif (90 bytes):

    (+) Positive emotions — pleasure, fun, emotional lifting, enthusiasm, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good mood, happiness experience; (on the first place this function at Hugo)

    (-) negative emotions — a grief, grief, grief, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, discontent, pessimism, bad mood, misfortune experience. (On the first place Hamlet this function)


    2. "White" ethics, ethics the relation etikW.gif (123 bytes):

    (+) Good relations — love, friendship, liking, an attraction, warmth of relations, the sociability, a close psychological distance, good, pity; (on the first place this function at Dostoevsky)

    (-) bad relations — hatred, enmity, an antipathy, pushing away, estrangement, the unsociability, a far psychological distance, harm, ruthlessness. (On the first place this function at Drajzera)


    3. 3 of. "The black" logic, business logB.gif (86 bytes):

    (+) Advantage, benefit, profitability, technology, the facts, acquisitions, accumulation, the purchase, savings, putting in order, a practicality; (on the first place this function at Stirlitz)

    (-) uselessness, unprofitableness, use, application, deterioration, expenses, expenditure, risk, experiment, sale, trade, actions in the conditions of chaos, an ingenuity. (On the first place this function at Jack Londona)


    4. "The white" logic, logic of relations logW.gif (115 bytes):

    (+) A reality, a detail, detailed study, carefulness, severity, a place in hierarchies, laws, decisions, instructions, a choice of the best variant, the logician of the organisation, (on the first place this function at Maxim)

    (-) абстрактность, generality, universality, system, classification, typology, the general laws, objectivity, true, justice, the analysis, logic of a science, criteria. (On the first place this function at Robespera)


    5. "Black" intuition, intuition of possibilities intB.gif (92 bytes):

    (+) Prospects, possibilities, positive potential, an essence, essence, the principles, new ideas, promotion of hypotheses, the theory, an insight, interest, originality, singularity, irreality, belief; (on the first place this function at Quixote)

    (-) hopelessness, alternative, negative potential, absence of an essence, senselessness, the paradox, forgotten old, серость, the mediocrity, the suppressed possibilities, disbelief, sensation. (On the first place this function at Geksli)


    6. "White" intuition, intuition of time intW.gif (123 bytes):

    (+) The future, change of a situation in time, a prediction, - a prediction, gradual development, evolution, a planned ascension, dynamics of changes, a time stream, imagination, the consistency, imperceptible changes — step by step, it is similar

    (-) the past, error check, danger avoiding, uneasiness, vague anxiety, назревание crisis, revolution, jump in time, ability to be insured from troubles, sharp shifts, discrepancy, the moment of resolute actions, a divergence, дивергенция. (On the first place this function at Yesenin)



    7. "Black" сенсорика, strong-willed sensB.gif (90 bytes):

    (+) - Power deduction, insubordination, protection, defence, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession; (on the first place this function at Napoleon)

    (-) power capture, submission, an attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests at the expense of others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering. (On the first place this function at Zhukov)


    8. "White" сенсорика, сенсорика sensation sensW.gif (129 bytes).

    (+) Pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, harmony, beauty, appeal, rest, health, slackness, good state of health, pleasure, pleasure, sensitivity; (on the first place this function at Duma)

    (-) unpleasant sensations, discomfort, inconvenience, disharmony, a disgrace, unattractiveness, weariness, pressure, illness, a feeling sick, suffering, a pain. (On the first place this function of Gabena)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    all result types have "-" leading functions. so ESE is among them.

    dynamic and "-" is positivist.
    dynamic and "+" is negativist. damn counter-intuitiveness.

    on the other hand,
    static and "-" is negativist.
    static and "+" is positivst.
    Can you elaborate a bit more please? Maybe show me which web page shows this info (especially the correct - + blocks, how they're assigned, what is a result type?), because I keep getting vague answers from different pages and the contradiction continues.

    I think I figured out the primary functions, so if ESI for instance has -, that means its has +, right? So where do the other functions fall?
    Last edited by 717495; 05-08-2009 at 02:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Can you elaborate a bit more please? Maybe show me which web page shows this info (especially the correct blocks, what is a result type?), because I keep getting different answers from different pages and the vagueness continues.
    There is no wiki article yet because i've been too lazy to write one, but there are actually two conventions. Gulenko assigned two completely different reinin dichotomies to each function using the same set of symbols.

    using the positivist-negativist dichotomy the functions look like this:

    ESE +Fe (ESEs are positivists)
    EIE -Fe (EIEs are negativists)

    using the left-right dichotomy (basically process-result) the functions look like this:

    ESE -Fe (ESEs are result)
    EIE +Fe (EIEs are process)

    The latter is the convention Filatova uses, so it's the one I use because it's a little more polished and has a litte more work behind it than positivist-negativist.

    Gulenko combines them both though:

    ++Ne = ILE
    ++Se = SEE
    ++Ti = LSI
    ++Fi = EII

    - -Ne = IEE
    - -Se = SLE
    - -Ti = LII
    - -Fi = ESI

    + -Fe = EIE
    + -Te = LSE
    + -Si = SEI
    + -Ni = ILI

    - +Fe = ESE
    - +Te = LIE
    - +Si = SLI
    - +Ni = IEI

    to get the 4 groups in his forms of thinking hypothesis, which is the main thrust of all these bits and pieces. Hope that helps.
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    Thank you for the information. It helps a little bit. I don't really know what to go off exactly.

    How do all the blocks look then? If one has + primary for example, what do the other ones look like?

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    ---
    Last edited by xerx; 05-08-2009 at 07:22 AM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Filatova version

    + = ILI / - = IEI
    + = ILE / - = IEE
    + = SEI / - = SLI
    + = SEE / - = SLE

    - = LII / + = LSI
    - = LIE / + = LSE
    - = ESI / + = EII
    - = ESE / + = EIE


    Positivists

    ego
    +
    -

    superego
    +
    -

    superid
    +
    -

    id
    -
    +


    Negativists

    ego
    -
    +

    superego
    -
    +

    superid
    -
    +

    id
    +
    -


    ...is the real version? I don't know.

    Thanks for all the info.
    Last edited by 717495; 05-08-2009 at 05:29 AM.

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    The thing about + and - elements is that I feel that they're basically reducible to the idea of function blocks, ie the ego block of an ENTp is NeTi whereas the ego block of the ENFp is NeFi. Meaning, how Ne couples with Ti or Fi respectively contributes to the + or - phenomenon. As such these "additions" to Socionics essentially seem superfluous to me.
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    -id-
    -Fi
    +Ne
    Oh god, I'm so sorry. I hurriedly made a typo here. It should be +Fi -Ne, since the EIE's id is probably equal to delta NF functions.

    EIE Filatova style

    ego
    +Fe
    -Ni

    superego
    +Te
    -Si

    superid
    +Ti
    -Se

    id
    +Fi
    -Ne


    I don't think the +Fe/-Fi thing is applicable to the process-result dichotomy. It does however seem applicable to the positivist-negativist dichotomy.

    In that case,

    EIE positivism-negativism style

    ego
    -Fe
    +Ni

    superego
    -Te
    +Si

    superid
    +Ti
    -Se

    id
    +Fi
    -Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I think I figured out the primary functions, so if ESI for instance has -, that means its has +, right? So where do the other functions fall?
    Each type in a quadra has the same plus or minus for a function - e.g. all Gammas have -.

    But I agree with MysticSonic...all this is really complicating things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Each type in a quadra has the same plus or minus for a function - e.g. all Gammas have -.

    But I agree with MysticSonic...all this is really complicating things.
    Apparently Since everytime someone posts the list of + and -, they are in different order.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    Apparently Since everytime someone posts the list of + and -, they are in different order.

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    For the ego functions:

    Put the functions in the periodic sequence N T S F N etc.

    Pick any two functions that the club of the type you are thinking of is composed of. In the sequence they will be adjacent.

    The function on the left will be +, the function on the right will be -.

    With this in mind, I find it intuitive to think of the + and - signs as indicators of direction. + means to the left in the sequence, - means to the right in the sequence.

    There exist theories that claim that the ego block also "contains" a block of functions opposite in Static/Dynamic (as in both opposite in introvert/extrovert) that has it's signs reversed. For example: besides having +Ne and -Ti, INTj would also have -Ni and +Te as ego functions.

    I don't use this last notation much. It seems to me a roundabout way of saying something that is already obvious from the intertype relations: that the INTj is very similar but opposite to the ENTj in terms of attitude and activities.

    Another thing being said, is that whichever function a person has in it's ego block (including the inverted block) are what the type values. This carries the implication that Alphas value the Fi/Te axis of Delta and the Se/Ni axis of beta, which is opposite to the claims of the conventional theories on this subject.

    For reference (according to said theory):
    Alpha values: -Ti, +Te, -Fe, +Fi, +Si, -Se, +Ne, -Ni
    Beta values: +Ti, -Te, +Fe, -Fi, +Si, -Se, +Ne, -Ni
    Gamma values: +Ti, -Te, +Fe, -Fi, -Si, +Se, -Ne, +Ni
    Delta values: -Ti, +Te, -Fe, +Fi, -Si, +Se, -Ne, +Ni

    These claims have made me cautious of ascribing conflict and complementation between types to single functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxtres
    all result types have "-" leading functions. so ESE is among them.
    True, but IMO that is no reason to leave the "secundary" functions out of consideration entirely. I personally find it very confusing to think of types as + and -. Result/Process already exists to denote that property.

    On top of this, Creating functions just aren't secundary functions. They're just as important to what a type stands for as the Accepting ones.

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    I'm pretty sure I have - as an LII. I often have flashes of negative trends, as they happen but when I'm physically unaware of them, such as the door tripping the person behind me or cutting someone off and having them swerve and crash. These are just some ideas that I think might be related to -, so if its a conscious thing, it might not explain the primary position of the block, but the second one.

    Alpha values = -, sounds correct labcoat. That's exactly what I wanted, just a list of quadra values based on process/result. Thanks.
    Last edited by 717495; 05-09-2009 at 09:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    to relate this to the recent discussion on type and maturity -- i think Aristocratic information is related in the sense of being more anthropomorphized, which Democrats could be said to either take longer to learn or to have forgetten (or to haved jaded themselves past). of course, anthropomorphized information can create very strange conclusions when it's incomplete (perhaps in the vein of "the Uncanny Valley"). i think Democratic information is more prone to more random errors (as opposed to systematic) and that Democrats as a whole experience less significant error (although at the cost of taking longer to learn, let alone fully implement, over a lifetime.) in Quadra progression, Democratic quadras correlate to childhood and middle-age, or when one's interests typically span several generations, as opposed to one generation concerned with defining itself -- note that in +/-, Democrats value sensing as an end in itself while Aristocrats value ethics (anthropomorphized involvement) as such.
    +1
    And it was good.

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