I'm like 90% sure this person is IEI but

[redbaron]

lately I've had cause to wonder. She's a self-proclaimed perfectionist. (are there IEI perfectionists??) She also worries a lot and seems careful. Very non-adventurous. I feel like we mirror each other a lot with our moods and stuff, even the way we email. But is that the way she is, or is she just copying me? She's WAY more structured than I am. She sets the timer for everything she needs to do. She won't throw anything away for fear she might need it (my SEI dad is the same). She enjoys music and gardening. She doesn't have a lot of confidence in her wardrobe or how she looks. I think she's kinda self-conscious about that stuff. She's not SEI. Definitely introverted. I'm thinking she's got to be INFp or INFj. INTj?? She complains that the rest of her family puts her down for always having to do things 100% correctly. Does that sound like Ip to you?? I dunno. I'm confused. I guess she's not INTj--she just unapologetically bought a book in the Dummy series, something an INTj would most likely not do! Could she be INFj????

[Ritella]

That actually does sound more INFJ.
Any other info on her?

[redbaron]

That actually does sound more INFJ.
Any other info on her?

well... she's married to SLE... They seem to have a calm relationship. But there's underlying friction over her need to be controlling and his need to be spontaneous; her need to be perfect and his need to be more easygoing. Um... she seems chilly when you first meet her but once you know her, is very warm. She's the oldest in a family of four. She worries a lot about her children's safety and refuses to participate in a lot of the "fun" stuff her husband wants to do (like scuba diving, etc). But if they were conflictors, wouldn't they fight a lot? They seem to have a calm relationship (at least from what I can tell). On the other hand, I think he's learned to keep stuff from her that he thinks she'll disapprove of, in order to keep the peace.

[redbaron]

she also has a particular and VERY specific method for loading the dishwasher! I'm sorry, but that is NOT an IEI thing, is it??? My ESE husband does that. She's got to be a rational! I cannot believe it....

[redbaron]

I learned to be perfectionist as a life response/coping strategy and struggle with it (it's something I'm trying to recover from, tbh. It causes me a lot of stress, especially at work.) It's more something I try to attain for the sake of trying to please others, not from any genuine desire to be perfect for my own sake.

I guess the difference might be, does she see being perfect as something she intrinsically values or is it something she does in her life, but would cast off like shackles if she could?

very good question. from the way she talks about it, she seems to be disdainful of those who don't like/appreciate her way of doing things and those who call her a perfectionist because she prefers to think of it as the "right" way to do things! HA Sounds internal to me I guess. I think her family is giving her every chance to throw off the shackles and she's not biting.

[Ritella]

Considering that she's married to an SLE, maybe she is EIE.

[redbaron]

Considering that she's married to an SLE, maybe she is EIE.

nope. there's no way.

[redbaron]

She could be INFp. It depends what way she's a perfectionist.

I know a lot of INFps who I'd say are detail freaks. They will make sure EVERY paper they produce, every e-mail they send, every exam they take, every project they are responsible for, is, just that - PERFECT.

However, I don't know any INFps who have very clean and ordered homes...

Well she has a cleaning lady who does most of it. She also likes to warn people that the house won't be clean but then when you actually come over, it's always spotless! So I dunno what's up with that. It's like she wants to lower your expectations and then have it perfectly clean in the end. I think she IS a detail freak like how you describe above...

but like I said---she wouldn't have a calm marriage if she were married to her conflictor, right??

[redbaron]

haha... I guess it could be something she has learned, and finds neat..? But it's not typical. lol. I lived with an ESI once, and she put all forks in one compartment, then all knives in another, etc. I just throw it all in there, but I have to admit her way was a lot better when unloading the dishwasher. I can't plan that much in advance, though, so after copying her for some weeks, I went back to the "just throw it in there" system.

yup, that's how she described her method to me! haha I just throw it in there also. (and sometimes I get scoffed at by my husband if I don't follow certain guidelines to fit the maximum amount of stuff in a load, lol)

[redbaron]

She sounds a bit like me in this... I've had loads of trouble with my perfectionism. I wonder if it's a coping mechanism to deal with weak Te, maybe? To always be the best, and thus nobody can criticize you in ways you find painful.

And I'd say she fits the perfectionism I see in lots of IEIs very well.

yeah, that makes sense. Thanks Mimosa! She does seem to be prickly about certain things, not wanting to be criticized on this or that (how messy and unorganized her email in box is, etc.) whereas I'm just like hey, that's how I am. lol I'm way more irrational than she is and comfortable with it. And I'm more Fe also--she leans more Ni (although I still wouldn't necessarily call myself Fe subtype, I'm still way more Fe than she is).

[redbaron]

but if you were given permission to let down your guard and be yourself because the ways in which you were exemplifying your perfectionism were starting to annoy your family, wouldn't you just drop it? Or do you think that if you'd been in the habit of attaining that perfectionism for so long, it would be too hard to give up and it would become your identity after awhile?

[redbaron]

you know, she's gotta be IEI. We get along too well for anything else. I'm convinced.

[redbaron]

Lol... Part of my perfectionism is to not annoy others, lol....

that makes sense. which is why this person's perfectionism doesn't make sense to me unless it's really the way she wants to be. Because her husband and kids say that she should relax but it's like she can't.

Well, tbh, my perfectionism doesn't apply to areas where I'm relaxed (like with my husband and kids). Then I'm anything but perfectionistic, and my inbox looks messy too. I'm invisibly perfectionistic. Like, some years ago, I would have reread what I've written here 150 times to make sure it's "perfect". Now I don't care anymore. Also, the better I know someone, the less perfectionistic I am. And the more I'm with people I know and trust, the more relaxed I am. My ILE husband actually complained about it once - that I spend too much energy on pleasing people I don't care about, while the ones I love are left with the lazy, sloppy me. It hurt a bit, but I guess it's true. However, my emotional energy is spent on the people I care about.

THAT sounds like what MY husband has said about me too! that I spend my energy on pleasing the OTHER people. I had the entire house cleaned up to the 9s yesterday because I was having five other women over, LOL

but with this IEI, I get the feeling that she DOESN'T let down her guard around her family. Like she's still trying to do everything right even when she's home and it's just the immediate family, and that they don't understand and appreciate that about her. So... I dunno.

[marooned]

I was wondering if it was her Ti HA. 100% correctly = Ti>Te doesn't it? (if I understand what is meant by that). It's that there is a single correct way to do something, and it is annoying when people aren't doing it the *correct* way. I associate that with hyper-anal Ti. Things like no, the correct way to think about it is This. Or the correct way to stack these objects is That. Or always apply this system when doing This because it is the correct one.

That said, I knew an IEE who had to arrange the diswasher a certain way, but it wasn't the same way everytime (I don't think). He was trying to maximize the space in the dishwasher, and didn't want to arrange things in ways that would waste space (because then he wouldn't be able to fit everything in) or in ways that might break certain treasured dishes. Since I couldn't really anticipate which dishes he would decide had to be positioned where and in what way, and not to mention there were dishes all over his house that he knew about that I didn't that were factoring into the positioning scheme, I decided to not involve even though I used some of the dishes myself. It would actually make things more complicated than they needed to be if anyone decided to help him. And actually I considered his "method" very efficient. It was more I don't seem to care about the method of dish arrangement. I usually avoid dishes as long as possible, and when I finally do them, there's usually too many for one load anyway.

And, lastly, an ESI I know has 'a place for everything' and is insanely organized. She is very orderly imo. I think she mainly just knows where everything is supposed to go, and cleans up messes immediately, which bites disorder in the bud before it can emerge.

[marooned]

I was wondering if it was her Ti HA. 100% correctly = Ti>Te doesn't it? (if I understand what is meant by that). It's that there is a single correct way to do something, and it is annoying when people aren't doing it the *correct* way. I associate that with hyper-anal Ti. Things like no, the correct way to think about it is This. Or the correct way to stack these objects is That. Or always apply this system when doing This because it is the correct one.

That said, I knew an IEE who had to arrange the diswasher a certain way, but it wasn't the same way everytime (I don't think). He was trying to maximize the space in the dishwasher, and didn't want to arrange things in ways that would waste space (because then he wouldn't be able to fit everything in) or in ways that might break certain treasured dishes. Since I couldn't really anticipate which dishes he would decide had to be positioned where and in what way, and not to mention there were dishes all over his house that he knew about that I didn't that were factoring into the positioning scheme, I decided to not involve even though I used some of the dishes myself. It would actually make things more complicated than they needed to be if anyone decided to help him. And actually I considered his "method" very efficient. It was more I don't seem to care about the method of dish arrangement. I usually avoid dishes as long as possible, and when I finally do them, there's usually too many for one load anyway.

And, lastly, an ESI I know has 'a place for everything' and is insanely organized. She is very orderly imo. I think she mainly just knows where everything is supposed to go, and cleans up messes immediately, which bites disorder in the bud before it can emerge.

[redbaron]

I was wondering if it was her Ti HA. 100% correctly = Ti>Te doesn't it? (if I understand what is meant by that). It's that there is a single correct way to do something, and it is annoying when people aren't doing it the *correct* way. I associate that with hyper-anal Ti. Things like no, the correct way to think about it is This. Or the correct way to stack these objects is That. Or always apply this system when doing This because it is the correct one.

But... I hate that. I mean, the whole idea that there's only one right way annoys the heck out of me.

That said, I knew an IEE who had to arrange the diswasher a certain way, but it wasn't the same way everytime (I don't think). He was trying to maximize the space in the dishwasher, and didn't want to arrange things in ways that would waste space (because then he wouldn't be able to fit everything in) or in ways that might break certain treasured dishes. Since I couldn't really anticipate which dishes he would decide had to be positioned where and in what way, and not to mention there were dishes all over his house that he knew about that I didn't that were factoring into the positioning scheme, I decided to not involve even though I used some of the dishes myself. It would actually make things more complicated than they needed to be if anyone decided to help him. And actually I considered his "method" very efficient. It was more I don't seem to care about the method of dish arrangement. I usually avoid dishes as long as possible, and when I finally do them, there's usually too many for one load anyway.

And, lastly, an ESI I know has 'a place for everything' and is insanely organized. She is very orderly imo. I think she mainly just knows where everything is supposed to go, and cleans up messes immediately, which bites disorder in the bud before it can emerge.

When this person had her house redone, she made sure there was enough room so that everything had a place. That was one thing that was really important to her. But all of that stuff is like what my ESE husband would want. I don't even think about it, I figure I can make do with whatever. Being insanely organized sounds like too much work. So you think this is her Ti HA manifesting itself? So why doesn't mine manifest... ever? lol!

[tiny_dancer]

Actually from your description she sounds like an LSI friend of mine.

[redbaron]

Actually from your description she sounds like an LSI friend of mine.

really? I might consider it. I don't know. interesting. I only know one other female ISTj and she seems more grounded than this woman. More matter-of-fact somehow. But I think this woman in question is either overcompensating or she's Ij temperament. It really feels like she can't relax somehow. Which is odd, given that she's married to her (supposed) dual and life's a box of chocolates. :tongue:

[Sirena]

Well she has a cleaning lady who does most of it. She also likes to warn people that the house won't be clean but then when you actually come over, it's always spotless! So I dunno what's up with that. It's like she wants to lower your expectations and then have it perfectly clean in the end. I think she IS a detail freak like how you describe above...

Ha! I do this to some extent though with different results. I'll clean and organize when I expect company (not often) and when the people arrive, I find the need to say this but it's because I know that no matter how hard I tried, I didn't do a very good job at making it look all that acceptable. I'm virtually incapable of making a house look spotless. I've always wondered about this. It's like I'm completely at a loss on what to do to make it look this way, lol. Also, I know my standards are lower than most people's, which makes me self-conscious.

haha... I guess it could be something she has learned, and finds neat..? But it's not typical. lol. I lived with an ESI once, and she put all forks in one compartment, then all knives in another, etc. I just throw it all in there, but I have to admit her way was a lot better when unloading the dishwasher. I can't plan that much in advance, though, so after copying her for some weeks, I went back to the "just throw it in there" system.

Yep. I can't seem to find it worth the energy to keep up with a system like this for more than a couple of weeks, tops. I've tried it at work and at home before, every time with the best intentions, but I can't ever keep it up. So, I can see how an INFp may try to be this way in order to be more "normal", but I find it hard to believe that an INFp would find it worth the energy in the long run.

yup, that's how she described her method to me! haha I just throw it in there also. (and sometimes I get scoffed at by my husband if I don't follow certain guidelines to fit the maximum amount of stuff in a load, lol)

Ha! I was going to ask you how your ESE husband reacts to your being like this. I lived with an ESE a while back and I constantly felt nagged by him about stuff like this.

[redbaron]

Ha! I was going to ask you how your ESE husband reacts to your being like this. I lived with an ESE a while back and I constantly felt nagged by him about stuff like this.

This is how we worked it out: I had him show me how he likes it loaded and why, and I try to follow those methods. BUT if I forget and do it wrong, he just reloads at the end of the day before bed and doesn't chastise me about it. So basically, I try to pay more attention and he tries not to call out for not being perfect. Works pretty well.

[Sirena]

Fuck, anyone's lucky if I load the dishwasher in the first place. I've been living off of plastic forks/knives/spoons and paper plates for the last 2 months since none of my dishes are clean.

(BTW, I'm NOT joking.)

*raises hand* guilty

Lol... Part of my perfectionism is to not annoy others, lol....

Well, tbh, my perfectionism doesn't apply to areas where I'm relaxed (like with my husband and kids). Then I'm anything but perfectionistic, and my inbox looks messy too. I'm invisibly perfectionistic. Like, some years ago, I would have reread what I've written here 150 times to make sure it's "perfect". Now I don't care anymore. Also, the better I know someone, the less perfectionistic I am. And the more I'm with people I know and trust, the more relaxed I am. My ILE husband actually complained about it once - that I spend too much energy on pleasing people I don't care about, while the ones I love are left with the lazy, sloppy me. It hurt a bit, but I guess it's true. However, my emotional energy is spent on the people I care about.

I might very well be Ni subtype of IEI, though.

I'm definitely perfectionistic when it comes to stuff like this, for some reason. It doesn't make sense to me why I seem to fixate over seemingly irrelevant things and completely not give a shit about more practical stuff. And yes, it does truly annoy and hurt me when people tell me I should be more practical. That's truly a sore spot for me. It may have something to do with it having been constantly pointed out to me growing up. The bit about my close ones getting the short end of the stick in this area also rings true.

@Loki: being perfectionistic for the sake of efficiency (because this certain way of doing something is more practical) vs. in order to follow some specific intrinsic system (regardless of utility) is the difference between Te vs. Ti, as I see it.

[Sirena]

This is how we worked it out: I had him show me how he likes it loaded and why, and I try to follow those methods. BUT if I forget and do it wrong, he just reloads at the end of the day before bed and doesn't chastise me about it. So basically, I try to pay more attention and he tries not to call out for not being perfect. Works pretty well.

That's great! A very mature way of handling it...compromise.

[redbaron]

so to everyone who's read this thread so far, do you all think INFp?

[redbaron]

you described it well, Mimosa. I like how you said your husband was frame-less. lol anyway yeah it makes sense. And I do think she's IEI. We get each other really well. The communication between us is flawless. Even better than between me and my IEI-Fe friend.

[Jarno]

From the few posts that I've read in this thread, EII seems plausible, even more probable than IEI.

[redbaron]

From the few posts that I've read in this thread, EII seems plausible, even more probable than IEI.

time will tell. I need to get to know her better I guess. At the moment I'm thinking IEI>EII but I'm open to new evidence. Wish I could post pics but I can't.

[Ezra]

She complains that the rest of her family puts her down for always having to do things 100% correctly. Does that sound like Ip to you??

I'm not sure temperament is related to perfectionism, otherwise I'd be an LSI.

[idolatrie]

Given the couple of LSI suggestions, my perspective on the OP, fwiw:

lately I've had cause to wonder. She's a self-proclaimed perfectionist. (are there IEI perfectionists??)

I think of myself as perfectionistic.

She also worries a lot and seems careful. Very non-adventurous.

For me, true for some circumstances, not true for others. I think to most outside perspectives, this would be how I'm seen. I am selectively carefree and adventurous.

I feel like we mirror each other a lot with our moods and stuff, even the way we email.

I think that in some ways octopuslove and I mirror with moods and way we email. We tend to keep the same tone and general subject matter.

But is that the way she is, or is she just copying me? She's WAY more structured than I am. She sets the timer for everything she needs to do.

Hmm.

She won't throw anything away for fear she might need it (my SEI dad is the same).

Yeah, I do the same, for the same reason. But then, I think octopuslove does too. (Not sure if for the same reason.)

She enjoys music and gardening.

Yes to the music, no time to the gardening. However, why she likes those things rather than the fact she does would be what is type related. So my reply is useless here.

She doesn't have a lot of confidence in her wardrobe or how she looks. I think she's kinda self-conscious about that stuff.

Nope, not at all.

She complains that the rest of her family puts her down for always having to do things 100% correctly.

Not what my family complains about, but that's a difference in our families. I think I'm more pragmatic that beholden to a sense of set rules, when it comes to getting things done. This starts to come undone in non-material aspects of things, lol.

[redbaron]

Given the couple of LSI suggestions, my perspective on the OP, fwiw:
I am selectively carefree and adventurous.

Yes to the music, no time to the gardening. However, why she likes those things rather than the fact she does would be what is type related. So my reply is useless here.

thanks for your feedback! this woman is older (different generation than you. old enough to be your mom) so that could account for some of it as well. She's definitely not carefree. Very introverted--needs her time and space to recharge. She told me (or maybe it was her husband) once that she only likes one night of the weekend to be full. She doesn't like things scheduled for every night (even though that's how it often ends up). I think she gardens because she enjoys the time to herself. Her garden is very structured. Not wild and crazy like an english garden. She's a lot more meticulous than my SEI friend who gardens. (he's just like "whatever" with much of it. cracks me up) And she likes it to look nice, add to the exterior of the house. I think she's more worried about her image and fitting in with the community than I am. For me, I just like to be myself and if it fits, fine. If not, then whatever. I am who I am. But for her, she seems to like to do things the way they're "supposed" to be done (whatever that means). Or the way she thinks other people think they're supposed to be done? I dunno. I need to spend more time with her to figure that out. She's way more micro-managing of her kids than I am. But that's normal for around here. She's very involved in their school and volunteers (which I don't really like doing, but which I'll do sometimes just because otherwise I feel guilty like I'm not doing my part). But I know other IEIs who are more involved than I am, so that's not saying much. la dee dah I guess that's all!

[Sirena]

tbh, my instinct here is to say that she's not IEI, though I guess it's possible to overcompensate so much for your weaknesses that you become quite deviated from your natural tendencies. I'd think this would have to be extremely exhausting though.

[redbaron]

tbh, my instinct here is to say that she's not IEI, though I guess it's possible to overcompensate so much for your weaknesses that you become quite deviated from your natural tendencies. I'd think this would have to be extremely exhausting though.

yeah I really don't know I guess. I need more information! Well the good thing is that I'll get to know her better this summer. I feel like I get a lot of Fe from her like on email/facebook. Would an (older, mind you) EII use a lot of smiley faces and exclamation points? She does that a lot.

[Sirena]

yeah I really don't know I guess. I need more information! Well the good thing is that I'll get to know her better this summer. I feel like I get a lot of Fe from her like on email/facebook. Would an (older, mind you) EII use a lot of smiley faces and exclamation points? She does that a lot.

Hmm I don't know about EIIs, but I know I tend to emphasize my Fe more on the internet, maybe to compensate for other factors like facial expression. So, maybe this is a sign of valued Fe? Dunno though since it could very well be something that just about everyone does.

Keep us informed!

[redbaron]

Okay guys I'm drudging this up again because this woman's husband just described her as "type-A" and "uptight". Just sounds so Ij to me... Can Ips ever be uptight, type-A?? I know she's the grammar police. But I used to be that way too. Could an INFp enneagram 6 seem uptight and type-A due to worry and fear?

[jewels]

she sounds extremely INTj. I have an INTj friend who is very warm, and is with an ESTp. She also has a good INFp friend. Anyway, the main conflict w/ the ESTp is he'll do things like get crumbs everywhere when he eats a snack and she tells him how the crumbs could cause bugs to arrive later on. So then she pulls out the vacuum...which he doesn't see the need for as they are "just crumbs."

She does things "correctly" once she decides what that way is. She was telling me her daily routine and it was decided in advance down to what she did when/why. No variation. She dresses very well, but always chooses the thing that will last longer/make more sense when buying versus the trendy thing. So sometimes it makes logical sense, but could look nicer w/ a frivolous trendy item thrown in. All in all, she always looks nice though. She has asked for my opinion on various things, but all girls do that.

I don't think my INTj friend would care about buying a dummies book...she's confident in her knowledge and if it was an area she didn't know about I think she'd find it funny. In areas I know about that she doesn't she's very upfront about what she does/doesn't know and open to info. I think someone like me, less confident about "knowing" and logic, would actually be more likely to hide a dummy book .

And setting an alarm to do tasks, etc...very INTj. There are very warm/nice INTjs that can seem like extroverts (such as my friend...though it's obvious to me she needs her space and her logical approaches to things).

Also, INFjs tend to change approaches more often, and have more doubts imo than INTjs, who pretty much stick w/ the "correct" approach until some big epiphany happens and then they will change something. So you'll see an INFj sort of worrying about whether their "correct" approach is really correct, and hoping it is, or worrying about whether their or other's actions were "nice" enough. Where as INTjs doubt their decisions less, unless someone brings it up w/ a terrific valid logical argument and then they might change their viewpoint.

So basically, I see INTjs as more certain w/ less doubting (which makes sense as ESFjs can be doubting and insecure, and the INTj adds that certainty), and the same is true w/ INFjs being more doubtful and their dual being more certain. I guess all duals would have one doubting and one certain person there, which is nice...

So that's my long 'n rambly take on it.

[redbaron]

thank you for your insight, Jewels! Interesting! If she's INTj, the I'm married to her dual and she's married to mine. I actually think this could be right... I need to go back and re-read the LII descriptions now. lol I may be back with questions.