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Thread: Allie WTF thread (split from Diana's thread)

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    Default Allie WTF thread (split from Diana's thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I hope Allie is reading this... Allie, that is what a ESI looks like.
    Out of curiosity, what "Beta STs" do you think Allie looks like anyway?

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    I don't want to take away from Diana's thread, so briefly:

    I've only seen Allie in a video she did to Numbers... And before that in a picture Steve sent me.

    From what I remember she has protruding eyes, which are characteristic of LSI women.

    As I write this, I'm reading a story about a beta ST child murderess (who's probably ESTp, and looks almost EXACTLY like my Mom, which is strange,) and she has these same sort of eyes (albeit not exactly the same.)



    My ESTp friend Caitlin looks almost exactly like Allie, now that I think of it... I'll try to get a picture.

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    ***el X Mercenary Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I don't want to take away from Diana's thread
    I wouldn't worry about that. Other than the fact that she took the time to post pictures, Diana doesn't seem too invested in it herself and a consensus appears to have already been reached on her type, therefore, further discussion on the matter isn't very likely anyways.

    Might as well turn this into a thread about JuJu's opinion of Allie's type. Btw, as much as I appreciate you taking the time to indulge me, I'd prefer if you would use examples of relatively well known Beta STs whose behavior can at least be observed by those of us unfamilar with them, for the sake of objective comparison.
    Last edited by Nebuchadnezzar; 04-27-2009 at 08:21 PM.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    I I'd prefer if you would use examples of relatively well known Beta STs whose behavior can at least be observed by those of us unfamilar with them, for the sake of objective comparison.
    Please split this from this thread, as it has nothing to do with VIing Diana, (who, BTW, is one of the clearest examples of ESI I've ever seen.)

    DeAnte, that girl is Casey Anthony... She's been on the news almost everyday for 9 months... There's plenty of info about her out there.

    Here's another beta ST...


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    These are my conceptions of what female SLEs and ESIs often look like. I won't deny a similarity in the eyes between Allie and the SLE women presented here below, but observing their body language in videos, SLE seems a preposterous typing for Allie IMO. There's no EP/IP fluidity or leading- naturality in Allie's video, when compared to other SLE examples.

    Even in pictures, Allie's posture is quite different. It appears less "relaxed," more "upright" or fixed and her movements are decidedly IJ temperment, reflecting a similiar awkwardness noticable in calenwen's old (since removed) video.

    SLEs


    ESIs


    Casey Anthony was apparently a massive "party girl" who partied regularly while her daughter was "missing." This woman honestly reminds you of Allie's personality, to the extent of them sharing the same socionic type? In any other natural pics (i.e. not when taking a fucking mugshot), the differences in temperment are quite apparent.

    Christina Ricci is LSI-Ti IMO. Doesn't look a thing like Allie either.


    Color me unconvinced. ESI-Se still seems the best possible choice for Allie. I know we're talking mostly about VI here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Allie is supposedly -seeking > -seeking.
    Last edited by Nebuchadnezzar; 04-27-2009 at 11:05 PM.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    ESI-Se still seems the best possible choice for Allie. I know we're talking mostly about VI here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Allie is supposedly -seeking > -seeking.
    Ever seen her video..?

    I agree with your examples (at least two of them--that Asian girl and the older one... The one on the bottom looks ESFp.)

    Neither one of them looks a damn thing like Allie... Remember, VI is about eyes... You need to memorize the psychological feeling you get from each type's eyes to become good at VI.

    Now compare Allie's eyes to your first two examples, or Diana's... The ESIs come across as somewhat restrained, proud, and for lack of a better word, classy.

    Now really think, lol... Is that how Allie comes across..? Restrained..? (lol) I'll do the work for you: no ... her eyes are twitchy and full of venom--there's nothing restrained or classy about them... (Dualz. <3 ) Compare with Hilary Clinton, who also has that look of coffee-induced bitterness in her eyes.

    One of these days, I know you'll get this stuff... It'll all just come together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Ever seen her video..?

    I agree with your examples (at least two of them--that Asian girl and the older one... The one on the bottom looks ESFp.)
    Possibly (the asian one). Just something I stole from eunice's thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Neither one of them looks a damn thing like Allie... Remember, VI is about eyes... You need to memorize the psychological feeling you get from each type's eyes to become good at VI.

    Now compare Allie's eyes to your first two examples, or Diana's... The ESIs come across as somewhat restrained, proud, and for lack of a better word, classy.

    Now really think, lol... Is that how Allie comes across..? Restrained..? (lol) I'll do the work for you: no ... her eyes are twitchy and full of venom--there's nothing restrained or classy about them... (Dualz. <3 ) Compare with Hilary Clinton, who also has that look of coffee-induced bitterness in her eyes.
    I disagree. Allie's face is twitchy and her movments are shifty in a way that makes her seem uncomfortable. The female SLEs are exactly the opposite. They're comfortably in control of their enviornment in a way that Allie just isn't. Her movements are "jerkier." As I noted, the eyes are similar, nothing else fits. And yes, Allie does come off restrained and "classy" to me.

    One of these days, I know you'll get this stuff... It'll all just come together.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    now compare her with lsis.

    sorry diana...

    would someone split this thread..?

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    edit: I don't know if there's much left to say here, other than I think you put about the correct amount of focus on the eyes while ignoring several other pertinent behavioral contrast/comparisons, where I don't see convincing similarity. Almost the opposite, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    now compare her with lsis.
    Who's Isis?

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    an egyptian goddess of fertility and motherhood
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    Agreed. Ezra is LSE-Te and Isis is clearly ESI-Se. She VIs exactly like Allie.




    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Age of Mythology FTW!

    I played Atlantis mostly though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    Out of curiosity, what "Beta STs" do you think Allie looks like anyway?
    What's interesting is that both my father and my sister are Beta STs. My father's Ti-SLE and my sister is Se-LSI. My sister and I are not identicals, and my father and I are (most definitely) not identicals. You could compare me to either of them and, despite a genetic resemblance, see that we are obviously not of the same quadra.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I don't want to take away from Diana's thread, so briefly:

    I've only seen Allie in a video she did to Numbers... And before that in a picture Steve sent me.
    Um, what?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    From what I remember she has protruding eyes, which are characteristic of LSI women.
    I don't have protruding eyes, nor would it be a characteristic of LSI women.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    As I write this, I'm reading a story about a beta ST child murderess (who's probably ESTp, and looks almost EXACTLY like my Mom, which is strange,) and she has these same sort of eyes (albeit not exactly the same.)

    http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...ny-mugshot.jpg
    I look nothing like her. However, she does bear a resemblance to Minde.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Now really think, lol... Is that how Allie comes across..? Restrained..? (lol)
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I'll do the work for you: no ... her eyes are twitchy and full of venom--there's nothing restrained or classy about them... (Dualz. <3 ) Compare with Hilary Clinton, who also has that look of coffee-induced bitterness in her eyes.
    I'm your dual because you think my eyes are twitchy and full of venom? The fact that you perceive me as “venomous” (or whatever) is probably a sign we're not in the same quadra.
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    Allie's eyes are not full of venom, and they don't twitch. They are beautiful, just like Bob Dylan's. For Christ's titties sake!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Um, what?.
    What you posted in the member thread.

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    All of the threads you 5 post should be under the "other typologies" section...

    I'm recommending a specific sub-section called "nonsense and nothingness"

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    i think isis VIs like sarah silverman

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    they have similar shoulders

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Allie's eyes are not full of venom, and they don't twitch. They are beautiful, just like Bob Dylan's. For Christ's titties sake!!
    I think the point is that some people find this very thing - venom and twitchiness, to be 'beautiful'.

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    Wait. Juju. You think that Allie and Nick are identicals? And that you and Ashton are their duals? This explains everything.
    Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    From what I remember she has protruding eyes, which are characteristic of LSI women.
    bhawhahwhahawhwha, this line disproves all your (self-entitled) knowledge of VI, LOL

    by the way, to me her eyes seem sexy and slightly insecure/dubious, something I usually associated with Se+Fi in some order
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    by the way, to me her eyes seem sexy and slightly insecure/dubious, something I usually associated with Se+Fi in some order
    I am going to stay away from politics here, speaking as a general Socionic knowledge I have, Yes I would think so IMHO. I think more so ISFj's than ESFp's tho. LSI(Ti+SE) have less sense of insercurity when you compare both ESI and LSI looking at you directly. LSI can stay still for quite a while without any hesitation looking directly at you. ESI seem to have a bit of unsureness and that you can pick up that they are a feeling leading individual.
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    1)
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    everyone who allie knows thinks she is ISFj, and the people who think she is ISTj don't know her.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    everyone who allie knows thinks she is ISFj, and the people who think she is ISTj don't know her.
    I support this message.
    Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    There was once a time when I thought Allie's not being an ILE was part of an act. Not only this, but that her being ESI was a complete farce, and that she was more likely to be IEI if not ILE. But over the past few months, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to see what she's doing as an act. Moreover, the kind of response I get from people like DeAnte about not being SLE is actually curiously familiar to Allie's case. Having seen Allie on both video and cam multiple times, it's easy to see that, regardless of her type, she's matured as an individual significantly.

    As per her type, ILE is a position which is untenable for one to hold. I've seen mistypings across the board, as have most others, but none like a conflictor mistype. There has rarely, if ever, been a case where someone has changed from a certain type to their complete opposite. In Allie's case, I just can't see why she'd change from ILE to ESI if she was actually ILE. She's not stupid. She doesn't not understand at least some of classical socionics theory. And even if she was a bit of a retard, I still don't think she'd ever make such a radical swap.

    So, clearly, there is something at work here. What it is I don't know, but we can immediately throw ILE out the window. Some of you might be going "so fucking what? We all know she's not ILE - we abandoned that ages ago". The truth is, no one has really ever had a clear idea on Allie, until niffweed came along and presented an expansive discourse regarding her type at socionics workshop. Here, I explicitly stated that I didn't agree. I stand by that. However, for different reasons than one might expect. Rather than actively disagreeing with niffweed, I've taken a fence-sitting position on Allie's type. This is unusual for me, because I normally have an opinion on everyone and everything, and even if I don't, I try to have one, and will stop at nothing until I do. Nonetheless, in this case, I feel it would be wisest to refuse an opinion; to take the sceptical approach and say what Allie is not, rather than what she is. What she is not is ILE. She is also unlikely to be IEI, based on my reasoning on SW (although some of it may be outdated based on my continued increasing understanding of socionics). ESI: this is an interesting suggestion, and one I at first dismissed. I now unashamedly retract such a dismissal.

    This is due to my experience of Allie on cam. She's never revealed much, for whatever reason (perhaps for a reason upon which she'd like to expound; perhaps not). She has an enigmatic element to her, which makes her very difficult to type. Part of me is embarrassed to admit that the only reason I initially thought she was ILE was because she seemed to react positively to Fe comments (she had that cute little laugh that she'd employ from time to time) on stickam. She never came on cam, but she talked in what I deemed (completely intuitively) to be an Alpha fashion. A few months after this, she suddenly took on a new role. She was far colder, aloof and generally more cutting and less congenial. She stopped laughing.

    Strangely, one thing that has always been consistent with Allie is her deadpan expression. When I talked about her laughing, and her seemingly emotive behaviour, this was all off-cam. She just had the sound on. So I, and no one else, could really read her reactions. Every time I've seen her on cam though, she has a monotonous glare. This is by no means a bad thing - she's not the only one I've seen with it (ref. calenwen). One might be tempted - as I nearly was - to draw comparisons to IEIs glam and Starfall, who also have relatively inactive looks on their faces on cam. The difference is, there is a kind of hidden passion/intensity in glam and Starfall, and they're more open to Fe atmosphere stimulation. I see none of this in Allie (nor, for what it's worth, calenwen). When people say "x VIs similar to y", I get the feeling they mean "x looks like y" (often I know this to be the case for sure). I think this is the wrong approach. There is far more potential in VI. calenwen and Allie look nothing like each other, and yet they VI similarly (how? I've just explained). Same expression, same demeanour, same vibe.

    So, where does this leave us? I said above that I'm reserving judgement. I will summarise with one thing though: I see ILE as virtually impossible, and IEI as more unlikely than ESI. I'm not necessarily advocating ESI, but it sure as shit is looking a lot more probable than it did half a year ago, and I think it's ridiculous to attribute this to Allie's "acting" like an ESI. An act only goes so far, and more than one or two people see through it (quite easily, at that). This is part of the reason why those who claim I'm an LSE "acting" like an SLE is bullshit. I also think, overall, my respect for Allie has increased with my knowing her. I've never disrespected her in all seriousness, and I've never had a major problem with her train of thought. I'm far more likely to listen to her now than I was last year. I may not agree with everything she says, and I may think some of her views on socionics are either not vocalised enough or are generally skewered (perhaps by Ashton, perhaps not). But whatever the case, she can rest assured that I won't post threads about facials any more.
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    re: Ezra's post

    What I know of Allie--I've only seen two images of her, as I wrote before--a photo steve sent me and a video to numbers, so i don't know a hell of a lot about her, to be honest--she seems like a typical beta ST... In terms of looks and personality... (Her activity here is Fe-seeking, e.g. see: her post called mad libs with juju and hitler. lol.)

    The two gamma SF types would be my 3rd and 4th guesses.

    If she's ISFj, she is the loudest, most brash and caustic ISFj I've ever seen... I.e. she is totally different than any other ISFj I've ever met or known...

    Maybe I have the wrong impression of her..? Or maybe she's beta ST... Either way, this is the most thought I've ever given it... DeAnte asked me a question so I answered it--unsurprisingly, the 5 ppl who dig Socionix rush into the thread as usual and turn it into the usual Fe lulzfest

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    Man, Allie sure is popular around here!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    If she's ISFj, she is the loudest, most brash and caustic ISFj I've ever encountered...
    Seriously!? Can you direct me to the relevant threads/videos/quotes, please?

    ETA: "caustic" I will accept, but loud and brash... I don't see it. Moreover, I would've said an ESI could easily demonstrate causticity; so much so that it is actually characteristic of an ESI to do so. Have you ever met discojoe?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    I have to go to school in 15 min, so, you know, here's this, and there's a thread in anything goes right now about me and hitler which demonstrates fe-seeking sense of humor...

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post514562

    i'll look for some other shit later if you want... but after watching that video, it's hard for me to go with Fi seeking, nevermind Fi base.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    one's physiology is (especially for particular types) often more difficult to manipulate than one's expression.
    I fundamentally agree, although not necessarily with the bracketed.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Creepy-Diana

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    If Allie's loud and brash, I don't even want to know how am I characterized
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    If Allie has and/or values Ne, then I'll argue that I can fly. Her ILE self-typing was the most ridiculous epic fail.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    An act only goes so far, and more than one or two people see through it (quite easily, at that).
    Which is exactly why you're getting called on your shit now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    This is part of the reason why those who claim I'm an LSE "acting" like an SLE is bullshit.
    Allie has in her ego. You do not. It's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    DeAnte asked me a question so I answered it--unsurprisingly, the 5 ppl who dig Socionix rush into the thread as usual and turn it into the usual Fe lulzfest
    lol.

    As far as I can tell, the threads at Socionix are nothing like what you describe happening here.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

    SLI-Te | 5w6 sp/so
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Dj is certainly not what i would call a "type exemplar," if he is even esi at all.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Every Ne ego I've asked has recognized Ne in Allie. Steve and JRiddy both have her listed as their identicals last I checked. Some of both delta and alpha Ne types easily see Ne in her. She uses it easily and naturally in her writing. She and dolphin also espoused a very Fe-centric view in the FLW split-off thread. So, beta NF and alpha NT are the most likely imo.

    When thehotel first suggested ESI when she was still claiming ILE I said something like, "She has so much Ne it's oozing from her pores!" I've seen her change in behavior, but her writing is still full of Ne. And no, that doesn't mean that she talks about possibilities or alternatives all the time. Nor do any of the Ne-leading folks I've seen. In that workshop thread I quoted what is an EXCELLENT description of Fe writte by Allie not realizing that's what she was describing. Also, a very long quote demonstrating a Ne thought-process.

    And no, I don't dislike Allie. Some of my frustrations with her were partly misdirected irritation with Ashton. When I realized he's of no consequence and stopped being annoyed, my irritation at her disappeared too. I don't think she's a bad person, and isn't ill-intentioned at all. I think betas get too much of a bad rap and all the oddballs get tossed in there besides, so it's easy enough for someone not to identify with the quadra in general.
    Funny, that, because I swear people have said the exact same thing and swapped "Ne" for "Ni". Seems anything can be justified these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    Which is exactly why you're getting called on your shit now.
    What, by some LSI zealot with very little idea about socionics? Your misconceptions are close to infuriating. What's more is that you are completely unwilling to consider any possibility. You're the complete antithesis of Ne DS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Dj is certainly not what i would call a "type exemplar," if he is even esi at all.
    That doesn't mean that other ESIs won't produce the same behaviour as he (given he is ESI, and comparing him to any other potential ESI - not just Allie).
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Creepy-Diana

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    If someone's strong in Ne they're also strong in Ni and vv. So, if you're hearing the same things re. Ni about her, that gives even more credence to her being an intuitive type.
    Okay, fair enough. I suppose someone with Ne PoLR is more likely to spot the Ne in a Beta NF's post than the Ni, as it's like toxic to them.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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