ILE-EIE Benefit Relations (ENTp and ENFj)

[Creepy-rjrjrj]

...

[unefille]

I'm married to an ILE, and I can't understand how he can ever clash with anyone in any way, but my EIE-Fe friend behaves oddly around him, so I'm curious if it's type related. Any generalities you can tell about?


I'm of course also asking because of the slight possibility I could be EIE (I am some hybrid in between EIE and IEI)

Definitely not clashing. More just...a sense of frustration and over-investment on my part and seeming confusion on theirs. And the Fi PoLR can be pretty painful -- a sharp sting, like when the last ILE, slightly clueless as to exactly what our relationship is right now, tells me about the SEI he's currently seeing and complains about her occasionally to me, completely unaware that even though he lives thousands of kilometers away from me now, that newfound physical distance doesn't mean that all my emotions evaporate into air and I'm now able to be his awesome girl-buddy and confidante, listening to him talk about new girls with an open innocence and lack of awareness that honestly makes me unable to really muster up any response except, possibly, incredulity.

I fall for ILEs too often for my own good -- but there is something oddly charming about them.

[JuJu]

I dated a ILE for over a year.

It was the lulziest, eye-rollingist, pile of lack of satisfaction I've ever experienced.

Highly unstable psychological distance between us... We'd get really close--excellent--and then we'd drift really, REALLY far... Maddening for me.

We'd laugh A LOT, but fight about stupid things related to society's structure, e.g. I thought that Yale should use some of its endowment (greater than many countries' GDPs) to set-up a night school, because as it stands, our city, New Haven, is under-educated... "Terrible idea!" says ILE... "The night students would take out all of the library books... I would never be able to get my work done."

Vicious fighting would ensue without resolution until we'd have sex... (The relationship's redeeming quality... This push-pull of,um, interaction.)

We're still good friends... But there's an unstable psychological distance... she thinks I'm nuts and vice versa... but every once in awhile, we'll have sex and temporarily, everything's alright in the world

that newfound physical distance doesn't mean that all my emotions evaporate into air and I'm now able to be his awesome girl-buddy and confidante, listening to him talk about new girls with an open innocence and lack of awareness that honestly makes me unable to really muster up any response except, possibly, incredulity.

Lol... this is 100% accurate... I was on the phone with her and she goes off about a new lover... "SOOOOOO good in bed... Kind of like you, except less selfish and with a thicker dick..."

i know she has no fing clue that this stuff is offending me... i wish it wasn't endearing, lol.

[tiny_dancer]

"Terrible idea!" says ILE... "The night students would take out all of the library books... I would never be able to get my work done."

Random question:
Did you perceive that comment as a joke, or that she was serious? Or did you think she was making light of your idea?

I've had those train-wrecks in which I'm talking seriously about something and someone interjects a joke.. irritating, to say the least..

[Khola aka Bee]

I've seen friendship interaction between an ILE and EIE and it wasn't pretty. The ILE ended up getting really mad at there being too much "loldrama" and not talking to the EIE anymore, and the EIE was like wtf he is creating drama fine I will never talk to him ever again HE IS DEAD TO ME.

Bleh.

[JuJu]

Random question:
Did you perceive that comment as a joke, or that she was serious? Or did you think she was making light of your idea?

I've had those train-wrecks in which I'm talking seriously about something and someone interjects a joke.. irritating, to say the least..

lol, i know what you mean.. !

i wrote that kind of flippantly, but yes, she was totally serious about it... she came up with a bunch of reasons why, logistically, (all Ne reasons really,) Yale shouldn't open a night school... it was a pie-in-the-sky conversation, but I was shocked at her reasoning--she called me "naive" and I called her "selfish." we fought about it for a few hours.

crazy.

[Saberstorm]

An ENTp friend of mine invented something really fun and cool. I have a fanatical desire to make sure his invention is funded. I am thinking of taking out a Small Business Loan to help get him started but he has not yet asked me for help. I also have good connections with various well heeled people, and will mention him to them when the time is right.

I need to somehow make sure that I get a slice of ownership for all my work. As an ENFj, I am the benifecary of the ENTp, I could just help him succeed from my advocacy, but reason dictates that I hitch onto his future success and demand reciprocity.

My powers of pursausion are good, I can "power hack" his mind if I want to spend a few weeks working on it. I am the same type as ****** after all! However, somehow I do not really want to manipulate him. I just want to help him, but common sense indicates that I should exploit him. I should take a big bite of ownership. Yet something makes me just want to see him succeed.

So, my question is, have any of you experience with an ENTp/ENFj partnership? How does the benificary act towards his benifactor?

Please tell...

[Ozz]

You did work, and you enabled him to concentrate on what he does best and allowed him to succeed, therefore, you should share in the prosperity.

[plotter]

I think that he will be satisfied as long as he maintains creative control of the enterprise. You should focus on achieving economical return rather than economical and/or administrative ifluence.
At least if you think he can handle himself.
You could for example aim for shares with less votes but with equal return. Just make sure he doesn't reinvest all of the revenue.

[FoxOnStilts]

I have a great thesis idea I want to do, but it's kind of expensive to do these chemical analyses. Are you suggesting that I find an ENFj to "loan" me the money and/or resources?

[Saberstorm]

No, but he will be likely to be a supporter in some way than merely inert.

[Eliza Thomason]

Just do the right thing, Saberstorm. If you don't it will come back and bite you. You get what you give...

If you do wrong, the prince of this world will make sure you get a heady reward. But he is a liar and a false friend, and as soon as you get comfortable he will make sure you have more misery, despair and loss than you'd think a human can handle...

I can tell you about my long experience as Beneficiary in Benefit relationships. So, next post, and it will be long!

[mu4]

Beneficiaries need to be careful not to try and usurp control from the benefactor, because this is something the benefactor is going to be wary of and antagonistic towards.

Also as a ENTp if I think that the services you provided and offered without my asking for it could have been done better and more efficiently by someone else, I wouldn't view it of particular value.

My advice is to treat this in a business manner and deal with the ENTp in a business like manner, because this is what is expected by EXTX. If you offer your services intrusively they may not appreciate this, especially if you are unsuccessful and expect them to take responsibility.

Offer him a path to success and a detailed plan of how to get there, you can't expect a ENTp to trust in friendship or chance in this sort of thing. If you try to manipulate him, he's just going to resent you in the future.

[Eliza Thomason]

My long "Benefit" marriage, with me as "Beneficiary" to my "Benefactor" ex, failed, but I believe it could have worked except that my ex was a true Narcissist Personality Disorder [NPD]. We all have Narcissist traits to survive in the world; some have maybe too much of this as it is encouraged in our culture, but that doesn't' make a person a Narcissistic, which is a major disorder, along the lines of Borderline Disorder.

I also had an Benefactor friend, and she ALSO had big problems unrelated to her type. She had PTSD to an extremely high degree from past major, major trauma. I never end friendships, but this one I did end in October. It was unhealthy and had taken over my life.

With my ex, I'd say my benefit was security. With my friend, it was having another single-Mom friend who cared about her boys values.

The article I am looked at for reference to these relationships is the only one I have seen on Benefit relationships, here: http://www.socionics.com/rel/bn.htm

First and foremost, this:
These relations are asymmetrical. One partner, called the Benefactor, is always in a more favorable position in respect to the other partner who is known as Beneficiary.

Yes, no doubt my ex was truly in a favorable position. I saw my role as "to serve", and I did, and he saw his role as to receive service. (minus any gratitude!). Also my friend saw her role as to receive service. She gave more lip-service to gratitude, though. But there was a great in-balance to the friendship because of the servant/served role. I completely immersed myself in her problems, mine "didn't matter" because hers were so much bigger than mine. But in both cases, I truly felt like I didn't matter.

I also did all these things mentioned in that article in these Benefit relationships: I over-evaluated, was impressed, and I did this: "the Beneficiary involuntarily starts to ingratiate themselves with the Benefactor, trying to please them without any obvious reason. In the worst cases this starts from little things and then becomes bigger until the Beneficiary realizes the foolishness of their situation." This was more true of my ex than my friend.

This for sure: "The Beneficiary usually listens to every word the Benefactor says but there is no feedback, the Benefactor can not hear the Beneficiary. This may be sometimes unpleasant and even irritating for the Beneficiary. " In BOTH cases, I felt completely invalidated and that it was impossible to be heard, ever. It was like they just couldn't hear me. And I did lots and lots of listening, especially in my friend's case.

"The Benefactor accepts the Beneficiary as somebody who is lower in rank or social position and often undervalues them in the beginning. The reason for this is that the Benefactor feels that the Beneficiary needs something from them, that special something that only the Benefactor can provide." This should have been reversed, and in the beginning people would ask him how he got a girl like me. It annoyed him. After much verbal an emotional abuse, my confidence and self-esteem were much undermined, and he was able to feel on "top", and this worked for him. I always saw this as simply an abuse dynamic, interesting to see this put this way in Benefit relationships.

My Benefactor friend, I don't see this so much there. But there did always seem to be a competition in her eyes, which doesn't belong in friendship, so it irritated me.

So, I conclude, Saberstorm, that since the article says: "Finally, when the Benefactor is in a superior position to the Beneficiary, it can work quite well, but not when it is the other way round! " that if you want this partnership to work you help him feel he is the "No.1"! And make sure you don' t mind feeling like you are never heard...

[golden]

There are a lot of crappy lopsided marriages out there in which one partner assumes a one-up position over the other, without appreciation for the servant-like partner, and not all of those marriages are going to be between benefit relations. Often it will be the woman who is expected to assume the one-down role, but not always.

So maybe the relationship Eliza described was benefit, and maybe the way the inequality manifested aligned somehow with how benefit relations develop (I can't say, obviously), but this kind of problem is not limited to a particular socionics intertype relation, in my experience and observation.

[Saberstorm]

Listen, this ENTp has no money, if I am bringing him buyers, I am the "owner" of what is in effect a development company. All I am doing is buying stock in a company he has not yet formed. Thus, I could bring in buyers that take an entirely different approach to him. We could simply shift the battle for equity to favor the largest investor, leaving him with barely 10%. My cut would have to be negotiated with the big fish, not him.

EDIT: As interesting as my thoughts are in the raw, I should be more refined.

[glam]

His Ni is the cum stains on her panties.

??

[Saberstorm]

I will be the nice guy. I will simply treat him like a brother. I suspect he is honorable. I have no need to control him. I do not think that he is as cautious as some here think he is.

As to my edited post which Glam refers to, I mean his long term vision is too emotional, spoken to soothe him rather than something connected to action. His Ni is often like an emission which fails to fertilize...

The only adult aspect of this is how to deal with people outside our relationship that I bring in. There is no competition between us. We pal around.

[Ozz]

Listen, this ENTp has no money, if I am bringing him buyers, I am the "owner" of what is in effect a development company. All I am doing is buywilling stock in a company he has not yet formed. Thus, I could bring in buyers that take an entirely different approach to him. We could simply shift the battle for equity to favor the largest investor, leaving him with barely 10%. My cut would have to be negotiated with the big fish, not him.

EDIT: As interesting as my thoughts are in the raw, I should be more refined.

You need to leave him with enough at the beginning so he'll be motivated to develop his concept. He'll probably push back if offered 10%. Of course, you have to retain enough power to replace/oust/dilute him if you choose.

It sounds like you have direct and practical experience with this already so my post won't help much.

[Saberstorm]

I am now thinking that this is not a benifit ring. He does not even remotely think like hkkmr. I think I have him wrong. I think that we share more in common than a benifit ring would imply. I think he might be the quasi-identical to the ENTp, which is the ENTj. Relations are very relaxed with this guy. We pal around. We can easily unite to a common enemy. There is a sense of honor between us. I am not a jerk and neither is he. We are natural "business partners," we are too similar to be in a benifit ring. I do not think I need to mobilize against him. I need to mobilize with him.

The strong functions of an ENTp are Ne/Te/Ni/Ti. Ne is the discerning function. Te is the subconscious demonstrative function. Ni is the ignoring function. Ti is the creative function.

The strong functions of a ENTj are Te/Ne/Ti/Ni. Te is the discerning function. Ne is the subconscious demonstrative function. Ti is the ignoring function, Ni is the creative function.

It is easy to mix them up. I think he intertypes with me as a business partner. There is no rivarly that is not done in good humor. The relations are good. This is not a benifit ring.

[Eliza Thomason]

That's good! I hope your venture works out! Sounds promising!

[The Ineffable]

Saberstorm, if this won't work out as expected, will you consider my hypothesis that you are an ILE?

[Saberstorm]

Why do you think that I am an ILE?

[Simon1234]

What problems would an EIE and LIE encounter eventually in a relationship?

[Chae]

Both are separately overworking themselves without noticing it. Maybe unnecessary power clashes. LIE won't get energized by EIE's Fe, EIE won't enter the business style and realm of LIE's Te.

[Simon1234]

Ohhhh sorry I meant ILE not LIE!!!

[Simon1234]

Hey Guys

just wondering what problems would an ILE and EIE encounter in a relationship?

Cheers

[Rebelondeck]

Confident ILEs will rarely listen to EIEs beyond libido interests and usually think themselves superior. EIEs, with any self-esteem, will eventually resent elitist ILEs. If both are honest with one another, the two types will rarely have common goals and ILEs will have trouble committing to a plan.

a.k.a. I/O

[Chae]

They're both a bit lost in their dream worlds, lacking the to manage daily business and health. They can't support each other in that regard, needing someone else to take care of it. Ideally, an ESE. No competition for EIE like a SEI would be and subtle enough to circumvent their PoLR + gets on well with ILE.

[The Reality Denialist]

ILE gives out too much logic as corrective measure and EIEs and ILEs Si is going to generate problems in terms of upkeep. There's that same 1D Si look: "what just jumped in front of me".
EIE Ni will be the place of disinterest.
ILE: There was this and this....
EIE: What a cunning way to wield social power and do something with it! You'll need to... I'll remember that.
ILE: Well, I suppose... that's one angle to look at it. Anyways...

[GuavaDrunk]

Si-seeking gets pretty tedious and annoying. It's like the person asks and asks and asks for something and when you comment on it they go "but I wasn't asking!"

Diverging and never-settled Ne options clash with plan-this-in-advance and What Is The Goal Ni.

[The Reality Denialist]

Hah. It can be pain to talk with Ni bases on internet. Especially ILIs are like: lay down the facts, ask for specific advice instead of speculating and expecting me to read between the lines. I'm like yeah you're the master.
Much less with Ni creative, though.
Granted that my speech is sometimes like this
https://www.littlethings.com/five-ri...-the-internet/