View Poll Results: Which form of loyalty do you tend to value more? (Read descriptions first)

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  • Honesty

    10 24.39%
  • Secrecy

    2 4.88%
  • Relation

    16 39.02%
  • Circumstance

    10 24.39%
  • No particular/cannot specify

    3 7.32%
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Thread: Forms of Loyalty

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    Default Forms of Loyalty

    This is a quality I've always picked up on in people. I don't know why, but it's something I tend to look for even if I don't necessarily realize I'm looking for it.
    In a relationship between two people loyal to each other, which do you value more:
    1. Loyalty to being honest
    2. Loyalty to keeping a secret
    3. Loyalty to a person above all
    4. Loyalty to whatever is “Right”
    Because of the buzzword-esque nature of words like honesty, secrecy, etc. and all of the moral associations they trigger, people find it difficult to acknowledge that these things can sometimes be mutually exclusive.

    Example: You confide in a friend something that you expect them to never share with anyone. However, this friend has a significant other that expects complete honesty between them; i.e., withholding information is considered lying. So if your secret—meant only for your friend to know—involves their s/o, do they tell them? Which loyalty is most important, the unconditional honesty between the couple, or the sworn secrecy between friends?

    I've noticed that people have general tendencies to value one loyalty over another:
    • HONESTY Someone may have an “I'm not going to lie to you, this is what they said to me…” attitude—where you can trust that they're telling you the truth, and although you appreciate being able to know the truth from them, you can't help but wonder what truths of yours they're willing to tell others.
      PRO: They don't withhold information from you.
      CON: They don't always keep your secrets.
    • SECRECY Someone else may be totally loyal and would never, ever expose something private between the two of you, but if they know something about you that someone else confided in them, you're not ever going to find out about it. So in this example, you can't help but wonder what they're withholding from you.
      PRO: They'll always keep your secrets.
      CON: They may withhold information from you.
    • RELATION Someone can be both honest to you and conscious of your secrets, but only based on your relational status/ranking in their relational hierarchy. Using the example of the s/o and the friend, this type of person gives one but not both of those people the honesty and secrecy, depending on who is most valued; e.g., “blood is thicker than water”—where loyalty is based on the type of relationship between those involved, rather than any moral standard of honesty or trust.
      PRO: If you're in, you're in—and you can trust them completely.
      CON: If you're not, you're not—and you really can't trust them at all.
    • CIRCUMSTANCE Someone can take a detached, context-based role or involvement in it. This is someone who makes a decision based on what is actually happening around them, the circumstances involved. This person decides who “needs” to know something and who doesn't; e.g., withholding information if it will affect things negatively or being “too honest” to provoke a reaction out of those involved—where they see themself as able to influence dynamics and feel responsible to regulate the spread of information between parties to achieve a “best fit” outcome.
      PRO: They'll do what they feel is right regardless of any hierarchy/status of relations or moral protocol.
      CON: You may not trust their conception of Right and Wrong, and so it feels like they're making decisions that they're not justified to make.


    I realize this isn't black and white, but people do have tendencies. I'm asking which—it may be more than one—forms of loyalty you tend to value more.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    I'd soften the impact of the Truth, and\or tell whoever I'm passing the 'secret' to why I was doing so, and why it was important for the 'secret' to remain secret. But I'd question why a friend of mine would keep a secret from their significant other...if the friend had found out they had terminal cancer and hadn't told their significant other, I could understand. But then I'd probably have to tell the significant other that something terrible had happened to the friend so that the SO could say "Is there something wrong dear? You haven't been seeming quite yourself recently."

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    With regard to information, I'll go with "honesty." However, I see loyalty more as doing things for me - calling attention to me when I'm being left out, making sure that I'm involved in whatever's going on, getting others to listen to my opinions. I value that more relationally - I'd rather have one person doing that for me all the time, than many people doing it some of the time.

    Informationally, I vastly prefer honesty, but I will hide things when specifically asked to (though I'll usually make it apparent that I'm keeping a secret).



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    I picked honesty. Because to me doing what's "right" is following the truth no matter where it takes you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I picked honesty. Because to me doing what's "right" is following the truth no matter where it takes you.
    Yes... secrecy out of circumstance is "end justifies the means."

    ETA: By the way, only "Relation" is really loyalty. The other three are each a justified lack of loyalty.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I picked honesty. Because to me doing what's "right" is following the truth no matter where it takes you.
    But if you break your promise to keeping a secret, that isn't really honest is it?

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    Sure, I get ya.

    I wasn't thinking about that dichotomy, but thats why I dislike secrets anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    But if you break your promise to keeping a secret, that isn't really honest is it?
    What promise?



    LII-Ne

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    I don't think being honest and keeping secrets are mutually exclusive. I don't have problems with someone not sharing something with me, but if they lie to me to keep that information a secret, then I have a lot of difficulty trusting them. I require absolute trust in the truth of someone's words, and how they relate to me otherwise I will always doubt them and their loyalty.

    EDIT: I should also clarify. If someone kept a secret from me, I would be hurt because I wasn't included in that secret, but I wouldn't find it disloyal. I would lose trust in that person.
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    Its more like "dont ask, dont tell"

    If you have a secret it should go under the radar. However, if you are directly confronted about it, than you should divulge.

    Secrecy is supposed to prevent the question being asked in the first place.
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    I expect people to know that I try to work in their best interests, and hence I couldn't ultimately keep a promise to never pass on a secret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    What promise?
    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Example: You confide in a friend something that you expect them to never share with anyone.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Its more like "dont ask, dont tell"

    If you have a secret it should go under the radar. However, if you are directly confronted about it, than you should divulge.

    Secrecy is supposed to prevent the question being asked in the first place.
    Ok, but if I asked a direct question and someone couldn't divulge the answer because they were sworn to secrecy over it, I wouldn't think that was disloyal. There are certain things that you just can't share. It depends on the nature of the secret. But there are secrets that do not involve dishonesty.
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    okay, I guess.

    I'd still become stressed and disoriented over it though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    ETA: By the way, only "Relation" is really loyalty. The other three are each a justified lack of loyalty.
    I disagree. You can be loyal to anything—a person, an idea, a system, a group, a sentiment, yourself, your beliefs, anything. They are all forms of loyalty.

    loy•al•ty |ˈloiəltē|
    noun ( pl. -ties)
    the quality of being loyal to someone or something : her loyalty to her husband of 34 years.
    • (often loyalties) a strong feeling of support or allegiance : fights with in-laws are distressing because they cause divided loyalties.

    (Source: New Oxford American Dictionary)



    Btw, thread cross-posted here:
    http://socionics.ws/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=784
    http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?showtopic=2558
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Hm, interesting. I know that I can be circumstantial. For example, when I was younger one of my best friends started cutting herself and she swore me to secrecy, and I promised not to tell anyone - and then I told her parents. This is obviously an extreme example and aside from such extremities I typically follow the secrecy model. I hope this doesn't sound too contradictory, lol.

    What about you, Allie?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    okay, I guess.

    I'd still become stressed and disoriented over it though.
    Ok, well here's an example. I had two best friends who were in a relationship together. Because I was both of their best friends, they would both come to me to talk to me about their relationship issues and vent. Now, I never told Male partner what Female partner said, or vice versa. Doing so would betray the confidentiality of our relationship. That said, I'm also forced to keep secrets from them, but it's understood that I'm not actively keeping things from them, but that I've been told something in confidence and can't share it. If they bring something up that I'm keeping secret and I think it's important, I'll tell them to go talk to each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by calenwen View Post
    Hm, interesting. I know that I can be circumstantial. For example, when I was younger one of my best friends started cutting herself and she swore me to secrecy, and I promised not to tell anyone - and then I told her parents. This is obviously an extreme example and aside from such extremities I typically follow the secrecy model. I hope this doesn't sound too contradictory, lol.

    What about you, Allie?
    Typically I'm devoted to secrecy, though I would consider relation a close second. For instance, people have confided in me that I barely know, and these are secrets that even my closest friends don't know about. I value the trust it takes to confide in me, and so I wouldn't want to betray that by telling someone else just because we happen to be closer. Also, I've preserved the secrets of people I dislike; e.g., if I'm with someone and we share a lot, I wouldn't want them to go around telling my secrets just because we aren't close anymore. That would really hurt. So yeah, I'm pretty much loyal to secrecy. Maybe relations second and circumstance third, though I'm not really sure.

    This is a subject that's always been in the back of my mind, so it's difficult to organize now in words. Hah.


    EDIT: I'm always honest about whether a secret exists or not, though. Like you can trust me to tell you that I'm not telling you something, heh. I'm not going to pretend it's not happening. Like if you ask me something I can't tell you, I'll probably say, “sorry, I can't tell you” or something. It's hard sometimes, especially to people you're close to, but I just remind them that they'd want me to do the same for them. And they always agree, albeit grudgingly.
    Last edited by Lotus; 04-27-2009 at 03:13 AM.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
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    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Relation. And that's what seems normal to me also. For instance, I know that if I tell one of my friends something that her husband will most likely also know about it, but nobody else will. I'm in effect trusting both of them when I talk to her. This is perfectly acceptable to me because both of them are trustworthy. If one wasn't, I wouldn't be saying anything to either of them. If it was something very personal though, that I wouldn't want him to know also, I would say so, and I don't think she would say anything to him.
    This is why I tend to keep track of what people value. I like to know whether the person I'm confiding in would tell someone else, tell anyone, or tell no one. It's a way to have control over what you share with others. However, I would prefer a secret between two parties to be kept between the two parties—not the two parties plus whoever party 2 deems fit to be included without party 1's prior knowledge.

    EDIT: Ugh, I think that sounded too harsh. Relation is still a close second to me, so I hope I'm not coming across unrealistic.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
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    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Doesn't seem too popular, but I'm for Circumstance.

    Rather than playing to some absolute rule (i.e. ALWAYS honest, ALWAYS secret, or ALWAYS both), I'd rather my friend have me in mind. So long as their intentions are noble, I respect 'em for that, whether they majorly screw up or not. This "trust" is kinda blind, but (to me) it really seems the most real.

    In a sense, Circumstancial loyalty is "the ultimate" in friendship.

    Can you trust a bud so much that you'll let them (not some rule) dictate your best wishes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    Doesn't seem too popular, but I'm for Circumstance.

    Rather than playing to some absolute rule (i.e. ALWAYS honest, ALWAYS secret, or ALWAYS both), I'd rather my friend have me in mind. So long as their intentions are noble, I respect 'em for that, whether they majorly screw up or not. This "trust" is kinda blind, but (to me) it really seems the most real.

    In a sense, Circumstancial loyalty is "the ultimate" in friendship.

    Can you trust a bud so much that you'll let them (not some rule) dictate your best wishes?
    What he said.

    Plus, I'm generally relaxed about "leaks", probably because I don't have Deep Dark Secrets. And, when I do, I know which of my friends intersect with my situational values.

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    .

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    Relation primarily. It's the degree of relation or connection that starts to tell me how much I can trust people. If I notice there are clear tendencies with them or loyalties outside of connection/relation, etc. I'll usually take that into account as well. For instance I might know that they would never do a certain thing under normal circumstances because it goes against their values or what they are loyal to/hold dear. That said I also relate with the Circumstance one, which I think is probably more how I generally am with everyone who I'm not close to, or haven't established some degree of connection with. The more of a connection there is, the more it begins shifting into the Relation one. I am also concerned with not betraying people (which isn't to say I don't get confused sometimes), so I also take into account what they seem to think of as a betrayal of their trust. With secrecy, there are some things I just won't tell people I'm close to... If someone I know who the people I'm really close to don't know tells me something that is deeply personal to them, I have no reason to share this information, and because it is so deeply personal to them I feel it would be wrong to share it. But if it was deeply personal to them and had something to do with a relation I have with someone close to me, then the tables may turn (because Relation is more important to me always, and if it isn't it means I've lost sight of things). Generally if I share something secret to me, I've assessed what I think the other person will do with it... if it is so important to me that I don't want anyone else to know about it, I will only share it with someone who is very close to me, or close enough that I know I can trust them, or because I have some other reason... (or I won't share it at all). I also understand that if I share it with some people, they will naturally transmit it to people close to them, and if that wasn't okay, I wouldn't have told them. Mainly it's that I am secretive unless I really think I can trust someone. I feel responsible for what I do and don't share and the consequences because I decided to take that risk. This isn't to say that it's okay then if other people "betray" me, it's just that I could have prevented all of it by not sharing the information in the first place... By sharing it, this means I considered the risks and decided to go ahead with it.

    The danger of the Circumstance one is that it can end up being very manipulative to outcomes desired by the person... If you desire "good" outcomes, then it's "good"; but if you desire outcomes that are only good for you, then it's not about doing the right thing anymore. For instance, the character of Iago I think was all about Circumstance, and there was nothing "good" about it. Of course that character wasn't really loyal in general... it's hard to even suggest he was loyal to himself even because his actions weren't good for him either.
    Last edited by inumbra; 04-27-2009 at 11:03 PM.

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    Hmm, good point.

    Sorry, I neglected to mention... highschool environment predominantly consisting of Deltas and Alphas. So, my situation is slightly different.

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    I chose D. (what's "Right"), but don't intend on explaining myself.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    However, I see loyalty more as doing things for me - calling attention to me when I'm being left out, making sure that I'm involved in whatever's going on, getting others to listen to my opinions. I value that more relationally - I'd rather have one person doing that for me all the time, than many people doing it some of the time.
    Yuck.
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    ... .. .
    Last edited by inumbra; 04-27-2009 at 11:02 PM.

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    Even though I have a certain kinda of predictability towards this, I'm not exactly sure what option I would choose. It's somewhere between Relational and Circumstance. Pretty much, if there is no reason for me to distrust someone, I won't, that's a base rule, I guess. I won't go out of my way to be secretive nor will I shut them out of my personal life intentionally. Who I consider to be potentially distrustful is circumstantial, and it depends on my comfort level with my situation. I will be subtly closed about myself and my opinions until I know how people will react to them, as well as any form of trust. There is a strange dynamic of this at work for me, because I know rumors spread easily, so I have to keep my personal details to myself around those types of people, and try and remove those I trust from the work setting and talk with them else where as if they were friends outside of work.

    But there is definitely a hierarchy of trust that I have in my life, but I think it's more on the "secrets" level, or really, just information of my personal life that's sensitive. I don't really share much with acquaintances, and friends who don't really keep my attention won't be updated on my life unless they come and get the info from me. I don't really mistrust them, but I find them too detached to really justify expending the effort and dealing with the reaction. But those who are close to me or are holding my attention have my unwavering trust and will know about what is happening in my life.

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    Circumcision and/or Fellation.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Valuing honesty is the best fit for me.

    Edit: Here's why.

    Relation is the worst fit for me because I'm uncomfortable with the notion of earning someone's loyalty just because I'm buddy-buddy with them or I'm the teacher's pet or I kiss their ass. It's exclusive by nature, like I have to be a member of a club in order just to be able to earn somebody's respect. Fuck that. I consider it to be a path to entitlement, which infuriates me.

    While I understand valuing secrecy, and if someone entrusted something to me that they did not want me to share with other people, I would honor that. But, I feel more comfortable being transparent with people rather than holding things back, and that's what secrecy is by nature: holding things back. And, I'm not too comfortable with that.

    I understand and respect valuing circumstance, but I feel uncomfortable about bending the rules too much. Common sense should be used in circumstantial situations, but this is something that is a large grey area for me, and something I don't feel comfortable or confident in evaluating.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    tereg's Avatar
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    Maybe I am Alpha
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I voted honesty because it's the opposite of secrecy, which is the only one that doesn't apply to me. Being Honest = Doing what's right = Being loyal to one person (Jesus) overall.

    ESTj
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    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Maybe I am Alpha
    T-Reg, you're blatantly a SEI Nine.

    Why are you still doubting this? Why don't you return my PMs? :frown:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    In my mind, loyalty is about being devoted to another person. A person who is loyal to me, will understand me, be there for me, help me, be interested in me, etc.. It's about the relationship between the two of us.
    true!

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    I lean toward honesty but I've used all of them before. Usually I rationalize honesty like: "well, the need for anyone to keep a secret is a weakness.."
    INTp

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    I'm "loyal" to the best interest of those I care about. I guess it's then D within C, or just something else.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    Fellation > Circumcision.
    Cheddar > Mozzarella.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    disagree.
    Prefer no cheese on popcorn myself.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Informationally, I vastly prefer honesty, but I will hide things when specifically asked to (though I'll usually make it apparent that I'm keeping a secret).
    Same here.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
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    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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