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Thread: ENTps anger in conflict situations

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    Default ENTps anger in conflict situations

    Well, firstly it takes A LOT to get me angry. But once I'm really there and I no longer have any pity for you, I change quite a bit. I can be pretty mean and heartless to someone who I feel has provoked my wrath.

    examples:

    I had a girl who kind of screwed me out of a place to live 4 days before I was going to move. She had the nerve to tell me that I was acting childish over it because I was so upset. That set me off. I sent out msn logs of all the nasty things she said about other people to those people and told her (never really planned too cuz it was too much effort) expose her for cheating in her masters program because she was actually paying me to do her assignments for her. I told her I sent a bunch of proof to her school so she would just sit there in fear waiting to get in trouble at her University while I hadn't actually done anything.

    I had a boss who was harassing me for 2 years. I finally had it and instead of going after her, went after her boss. I threatened to be a whistleblower unless I got a fair severence package and spectacular references. Basically, I made her uncomfortable by making those senior to her uncomfortable. I probably could have gotten her fired but at the time, I just wanted it over and to move on.

    The thing was in all the conflict situations I have gotten into, those getting the brunt of it thought it was really bad. In fact, they were actually lucky that I'm kind of lazy because if I really want to, I can make someone's life hell.

    Everytime someone turns it up a notch, I turn it up too but twice the volume. Its like for every move they have, I have a very powerful move back to shut them down. I keep thinking to myself though, I hope they don't move it up a notch because I really don't want to have to punish them....but will if necessary.

    Even in anger, they only got a taste of what I'm actually capable of.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?

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    It sounds to me like you're really pissed off, and either
    1) You just punished someone
    2) You want to punish someone

    I have never been in a situation where I felt the need to take revenge on someone, although I can see situations where that was plausible. I guess it is how you view the situation. Many I times I feel like things are my own fault (internal locust of control).

    Actually, the only thing that I do want to attack is the f*cking parking department at my school. I have no idea how to go about these things, though. How do you get an entire organization on the edge? What I really want is a policy change - that is a change from being completely retarded, to being reasonable and helpful. I want a policy where the parking enforcers stop and think before they give a ticket. THey should ask quesitons like: is his parking job restricting others parking rights? If not -> no ticket. Parking tickets should not be dealt after a certain time of night... etc, etc. That's my rant. Now I'm pissed.
    INTj
    "... the present is too much for the senses, too crowding, too confusing, too present to imagine" - RF

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    Myself, I'm not a big fan of revenge; it tends to only make things worse when you try to get back at the wrong kind of person. But when someone really fucks with me, I have a bunch of pranks and tricks that I use to get back at them.

    Boarding school is fun sometimes.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    It sounds to me like you're really pissed off, and either
    1) You just punished someone
    2) You want to punish someone
    Actually no. I was reading another thread about harassment and it did bring up a lot of those feelings though. I was so angry and still feel betrayed by the company I pretty much killed myself for 8 years for. Basically, I switched depts and went from a rising star in the company to a victim of harassment from a jealous paranoid ESTp boss. She basically made my life such hell I was forced to quit the company because they took her word over mine. So if I was going down, I was taking her with me. She had them convinced I was actually a schitzophrenic and I had to go get a mental assessment to prove she was lying. Basically, it was easier for them to believe that I was crazy than realize someone in their senior managment was capable of such behavior.

    After everything they put me through though, I could never go back there. Now I'm a rising star in another company...their loss. It was over a year ago that everything exploded and even after councelling, I still get angry sometimes knowing the incompetant bully has got to keep her job while I had to take 6 mos off and go through councelling to recover from the abuse I took.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    so you're a raging cunt
    lol

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    What type is the moron type? That was pretty insensitive thing to say after someone just mentions they had to take 6 mos. off and go through councelling to recover from the incident.

    Edit: ooops guess I edited that part out. She harassed me so bad on a daily basis...if I was even quiet because I was too busy she called me her office accusing me of having a problem with her and some kind of attitude problem. She would make all these paranoid accusations against me like I was after her job (which I totally wasn't, I just wanted to do mine in peace).
    Polly
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    I use lateral thinking to get revenge on people. Instead of wasting energy on some extravagant plan, I'll just slash their tires when no one's around, or throw rocks into their windows and then bolt.

    Sometimes simplicity is key.

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    Default Re: ENTps and why you don't want to really piss them off

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    Well, firstly it takes A LOT to get me angry. But once I'm really there and I no longer have any pity for you, I change quite a bit. I can be pretty mean and heartless to someone who I feel has provoked my wrath.

    examples:

    I had a girl who kind of screwed me out of a place to live 4 days before I was going to move. She had the nerve to tell me that I was acting childish over it because I was so upset. That set me off. I sent out msn logs of all the nasty things she said about other people to those people and told her (never really planned too cuz it was too much effort) expose her for cheating in her masters program because she was actually paying me to do her assignments for her. I told her I sent a bunch of proof to her school so she would just sit there in fear waiting to get in trouble at her University while I hadn't actually done anything.

    I had a boss who was harassing me for 2 years. I finally had it and instead of going after her, went after her boss. I threatened to be a whistleblower unless I got a fair severence package and spectacular references. Basically, I made her uncomfortable by making those senior to her uncomfortable. I probably could have gotten her fired but at the time, I just wanted it over and to move on.

    The thing was in all the conflict situations I have gotten into, those getting the brunt of it thought it was really bad. In fact, they were actually lucky that I'm kind of lazy because if I really want to, I can make someone's life hell.

    Everytime someone turns it up a notch, I turn it up too but twice the volume. Its like for every move they have, I have a very powerful move back to shut them down. I keep thinking to myself though, I hope they don't move it up a notch because I really don't want to have to punish them....but will if necessary.

    Even in anger, they only got a taste of what I'm actually capable of.
    Well, you have lost at least two times then.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    It sounds to me like you're really pissed off, and either
    1) You just punished someone
    2) You want to punish someone
    Actually no. I was reading another thread about harassment and it did bring up a lot of those feelings though. I was so angry and still feel betrayed by the company I pretty much killed myself for 8 years for. Basically, I switched depts and went from a rising star in the company to a victim of harassment from a jealous paranoid ESTp boss. She basically made my life such hell I was forced to quit the company because they took her word over mine. So if I was going down, I was taking her with me. She had them convinced I was actually a schitzophrenic and I had to go get a mental assessment to prove she was lying. Basically, it was easier for them to believe that I was crazy than realize someone in their senior managment was capable of such behavior.

    After everything they put me through though, I could never go back there. Now I'm a rising star in another company...their loss. It was over a year ago that everything exploded and even after councelling, I still get angry sometimes knowing the incompetant bully has got to keep her job while I had to take 6 mos off and go through councelling to recover from the abuse I took.
    Uhm Well then I might forgive you for taking revenge in this case.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I'm not sure I agree with Polly on actions motivated purely on revenge, especially if they took too much time and have little effect.

    On the matter of the ESTp boss, it wasn't really revenge but defense actions.

    What she reports is a good example of the kind of crap you put up with in the corporate world, although not always as bad as that.

    I also had problems with an ESTp colleague whose approach to "team work" was, "you do most of the work, I'll take all the credit since I was acting as boss (even though nobody said I was) and I'll prop myself up whenever I'm talking to the real bosses. When talking to clients I'll use bullshit to promise everything, you use your to make it work".

    With apologies to the ESTps here -- from what I've observed, working with you is a nightmare.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    That was pretty insensitive thing to say after someone just mentions they had to take 6 mos. off and go through councelling to recover from the incident.
    I agree. Such remarks are nothing but verbal farts. They stink, but that's all the substance they've got. I'm glad you've found another job, and one that's as good as the last.

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    Hehe I used to say "it's not revenge, it's justice..."

    I have also done a lot of things in my past that are similar to what Polly describes. I don't do stuff like that much anymore though. Sometimes I'm a bit passive aggressive, and I try not to be... but being passive aggressive just makes people uncomfortable, while the shit I used to do made people cry and/or fucked up their lives.

    ENTps are good at this type of thing because we see cause and effect relationships, allowing us to easily alter the dynamics of a situation without getting in trouble (or a lot of times without even making ourselves look bad). I've said many times that an insecure ENTp is a VERY dangerous thing indeed.
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    Most N's are dangerous.

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    Yeah, I've never been in a physical fight. I can fuck someone up a HELL of a lot more through non-physical means than anyone could through physical means, unless they're willing to take a life or cause a long term disability.
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    When I think someone is trying to do something behind my back, or lie to me I'm pretty good at finding out the information I need. I'm almost like a detective because when I recieve information it starts connecting the dots. Once I have a few dots connected I know what to do to get the next set of information. I have an example, but I wish not to go into it right now.

    This same type of thing I have also used to play two people against each other, while also having both come to me seperately to talk bad about the other. I've done this other times too, and always come out innocent.
    ILE

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    Polly,

    I doubt seriously that any of these traits are ENTp exclusives. I would never take the initiative to purposely hurt someone even if they wrong me. I may dream of it or when the time comes, they will find me cold in responding to them. But, to just vehemently go after someone, or worse get someone else involved, that seems pretty messed up.

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    pfft no one said it's good. Stop POLR poking.
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    Messed up maybe but there were several motivations for my actions. Getting back at her was only one. Another was protecting myself by making enough noise that I got a fair settlement out of it. Another was to draw attention to the issue I saw not just happening with me but with others that I felt was unfair, immoral, not to mention damaging to the company's productivity.

    I was basically put in a position where I either had to quit and get nothing or quit and fight back. I chose to fight and make her and others who were involved accountable for their actions.

    ok, there is a little more to this story which provoked the reaction but there are some things Im not allowed to talk about. Lets just say, I protected myself and she deserved even more in my opinion than she actually got.
    Polly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ENTps are good at this type of thing

    Yes, just like everything else.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    pfft no one said it's good. Stop POLR poking.
    Not POLR poking, you appear to be one of the few (if the only one) who can agree. Take a poll whether ENTps would agree, however I don't see the type having that much need to exert such negative energy, especially once an situation is behind them.

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    yeah but function, the situation was not behind me at the time. It was a current and real threat where either I fought or roll over and let the bad guys win.

    Are you saying that ENTps don't tend to fight to protect their or others rights?
    Polly
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    Heya Polly,

    I miss your old avatar. When I read your original post, I read it as though the situations occurred in the past, and your actions were being taken at a later date. I don't know, I am not the most confrontational type person unless someone get's up in my face or continues to harass and back me into a corner. In reading your post, it seemed as though you developed a strategy to go after these people. If it were merely to relieve the pressure being put on you, I can appreciate it. However, if you had moved on and taking reprisal actions at a later date..... I would have a hard time relating.

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    I used to be really non-confrontational too until I was pushed too far just one too many times. It just seems that I've been around people who just wanted to suck me dry and didn't care what state it left me in.

    The first one, most definately was a current thing which I felt the need to protect myself.

    I just found I let so much slide with people they were really taking advantage of me. It also just so happens that individuals involved in both cases were ESTps so they didn't really have a whole lot of heart for my feelings.

    I didn't actually get revenge on the second person (just threatened it to make her scared and put her through a little of the angst she was putting me through.) Her actions basically cost me a place to live and I was very close to being homeless.

    Both cases involved money. I get kind of weird when someone screws me over and finances are involved. In both cases I thought of more as teaching a lesson than getting revenge.

    After what had happened to me (and I can't even begin to describe the impact it had on me). I no longer just let things slide. Letting things slide is what got me into that situation in the first place.

    However, this whole fighting back thing and sticking up for myself is very new to me. I'm trying to strive between a balance of sticking up for myself as opposed what should I reasonably take from a person before reacting.

    My whole point is, if you drive an ENTp to the point they do actually react it can be a scary thing. (I never said it was a good thing at all...quite horrible actually). All those possibilities that you just imagine but don't act on, can be acted on if I feel extremely threatened by that person now. Its something I absolutely HATE to do. I get no joy out of at all. In fact, it consumes me a bit while I'm going through it so would rather just drop it. I'm not good at being an aggressor. BUT...its important to stand up for myself. Yes, I have faults...we all do. But until now, it was always me making the changes and compromises. Now I expect others to as well.

    In both those cases, I was to blame in the sense that I let them misbehave so badly that it got to the point they were like narcissists eating me alive. Which provoked the aggressive reaction.

    The whole time I was remembering an ENTj boss who no one screwed with and behaved as she would have. ...and it worked.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Polly, I think I can now understand your thread at entp.org, regarding ESTP/Nemisis. I do think that ESTp, per Rocky's definition and enlightenment may make for a different person, whereas, many MBTI ESTP can be mistaken for ENTjs. When reading some of the post of ESTps, I can appreciate there being a hostility. FDG believes that I may be ENTj so, I guess much of what you are saying was never anything that I had to contend with, for the reasons that you provide.

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    Oh and changed my avatar for ya function sweetie....I like change
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    Most N's are dangerous.
    Yup *cracks knuckles*, that's me.

    *snickers inside*
    INTj
    "... the present is too much for the senses, too crowding, too confusing, too present to imagine" - RF

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    Does ENTp's "revenge" work better on certain types or does it generalize to everyone? How easily could you take advantage of an INTj?
    INTj
    "... the present is too much for the senses, too crowding, too confusing, too present to imagine" - RF

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    I can't see an INTj pissing me off that way. Its not so much taking advantage of a person as it is the rules. If I had a problem with an INTj, I would just talk to them about it.

    If they were difficult, and I had right on my side, than chances are their are avenues for me to seek support. In the case of work situations there is the labor board, human rights commission etc. etc.

    But I could just tell an INTj this. Telling an ESTp this just made them defensive and actually provoked even more irrational behavior. In both cases I found that the ESTps placed motives on my actions that were just downright paranoid.

    For example, my boss keeps loading more and more work on me and giving me irrational deadlines. I was under the mistaken assumption she actually wanted me to succeed and do a good job at the work, I hadn't realized she was actually trying to get me to fail so she could come in and save the day. It just didn't happen that way.

    I did it because of my loyalty to the company and because I felt the work was important. However, from her point of view the only reason someone would work that hard was if they wanted her job. So she treated me like an enemy and networked people behind my back against me. By the time I came forward about her behavior, she had people convinced (unbeknownst to me because I was actually WORKING instead of gossiping) that I was a demon. So no one was willing to help me.

    I had to prove every incident, and even prove I wasn't a scitzophrenic by getting a mental assessment done before anyone would even listen to me.

    Try dealing with people when you are sane but they talking to you like some mentally ill child! Basically, I just see an INTj far wiser than this so it would never get to this point.

    I think I could probably work this out with most types with the exception of the ESTp. I just find they seem to have no concept of where I'm coming from and if you are blaming them for anything their first reaction is to make you evil.

    I saw quite a few ESTps in administration and the common denominator I saw was manipulation and bullying to get their own way. In the business world and my field I do consider the ESTp my nemesis.

    I'm not saying all ENTps feel this way. I'm personally sensitive to bullying and tend to stand up against it when I see it because I was bullied as a child in school and know what damage it did to me. As an adult, I call it when I see it. In MY experience, the only way to get an ESTp to face their actions is to make them accountable for them. They hate it and will hate you but usually by that point, I don't care. By then, they did me wrong and I think they are posers and want to expose them.

    I've never seen a type shoot themselves in the foot as much as I see ESTps do. They are pretty easy to take down by an ENTp. Funny though, both the ones I had it out with said to me the same thing...how did I think I could take them on because they had more friends than me. (bad mistake because that even spurned me on more) Wtf does having friends have to do with it? When you break the rules and abuse people, the labor board doesn't care how many friends you have. When you pay someone to do your final masters project for your degree, do you think the University you go to cares how many friends you have?

    To all the ESTps out there who are not like this, I sincerely apologize. I'm not going to blame every ESTp for the problems I've had with a few. I am weary of you though and might not trust you too much right off the bat.
    Polly
    ENTP

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    Wtf does having friends have to do with it?
    Generally bullies like to have a bunch of friends so they can get them all to gang up on one person. That's what I've seen, and that's what you just told me.

    An example: One time me and two of my friends pissed off these other 3 guys (just joking around). In about 5 minutes we found ourselves surrounded by about 17 other guys. Talk about pussies. but what can you do when its 3 against 17? Walk away. That's it.

    ... wow, remembering that got ME pissed off.

    Anyways. Bullies need other people because they're pussies, and they can't handle things themselves.... I guess some of them can, but those are the kind you run into in elementary school.

    Your boss already had people that she could easily get on her side, which is what she did. If you ask me, making up rumors is like nailing your opponent in the nutz during a boxing match.
    INTj
    "... the present is too much for the senses, too crowding, too confusing, too present to imagine" - RF

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    Yeah, but it really is dysfunctional thinking. Even in the case where the 17 guys ganged up, there, I'm sure, were legal avenues you could have taken but chose not to.

    I really do look at putting up with bullying behavior as a choice. I don't care how many friends you have, if I really want to get you...your friends can't help you. If they do, I just might go after them too so the next time you ask for help, they may not be so willing.

    A little trick I learned is its easy to make bullies paranoid too. Quite often you don't actually have to do anything, just the hint of it is enough to let their imagination run wild.

    I have no pity or empathy for bullies. In my opinion, they prey on pity and emphathy to get away with their behavior many times and I'm not going to be one of their enablers.
    Polly
    ENTP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G

    A little trick I learned is its easy to make bullies paranoid too. Quite often you don't actually have to do anything, just the hint of it is enough to let their imagination run wild.

    I have no pity or empathy for bullies. In my opinion, they prey on pity and emphathy to get away with their behavior many times and I'm not going to be one of their enablers.
    That reminds me of a time in my freshman year in high school. This guy behind me in english kept puttin lead down my shirt, (dont ask why casue Im not sure) anyways I picked one up as we left and causually droped it down his shirt and gave him a creepy smile, he got pissed off and tried to kick me, he apparently couldnt judge distances to well cause he missed me and hit my backpack. I laughed which just made him even more pissed as I left.
    "Knowlege is not very far" - Flaw's Worlds Divide
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    "A little non-sense now and then is cherished by the wisest of men"

    INTj, INTJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    Oh and changed my avatar for ya function sweetie....I like change
    Oooh la la . Actually, the pouty little smile with sweat shirt was soooo sexy :wink:

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    I have no pity or empathy for bullies. In my opinion, they prey on pity and emphathy to get away with their behavior many times and I'm not going to be one of their enablers.
    There's an excellent book about bullying. It says more or less what you just said. It includes a good examination of the group dynamics involved in bullying. The author doesn't call it "bullying", btw., she calls it "emotional perversity". Three cheers for her. She also examines the ways an emotional pervert disguises his tactics and makes it seem like his victim is "overreacting", "inexplicably aggressive" or "emotionally unstable".

    The author is Marie-France Hirigoyen. The English title is (I think) Stalking the soul: Emotional Abuse and the erosion of identity. The French original is called La harcèlement moral: la violence perverse au quotidien ("moral harassment: perverse violence in everyday life").

    She's also written a book about workplace bullying, which someone has summed up on this site . It reads as if written by a non-native speaker of English, but it's more or less possible to understand what they mean.

  35. #35

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    Yay for her! I love it when people publish stuff like this. It gives people like teachers more resources.

    I'd like corporations to take more of an interest in it. Learn what workplace harassment is and how it impacts. When researching about workplace harassment I found all kinds of things that I see corporations around here using as regular business practice.

    When my own life calms down and I have more time to heal, I might actually try to do something about this. Its not impossible. Quebec already has legislation against these practices. Nova Scotians statistically work more hours for less money than anywhere else in Canada. Yet our cost of living is also one of the highest.

    I even think I might have found legal grounds to do it on using the harassment laws which are in place for designated groups. I spoke to a few local lawyers about it and only one saw the potential...but its a pretty big issue to tackle so that doesn't suprise me. Actually, ok, here is my idea...tell me what ya'll think...

    Current legislation states that you cannot harass someone based on their designated group status. Designated groups in Canada I'm sure are similar to those in the States Women, First Nation Peoples (Native Americans), Racially Visible People or those suffering from a disability.

    I was in employment equity and dealt a lot with statistics. Statistics show that these groups tend to be in the lower income brackets and the lower levels in organizations...i.e. staff and lower to mid-management.

    These are also the groups most greatly impacted by harassment.

    The law states that discrimination based on designated group status is illegal. Discrimination can also be systemic in nature meaning a company could have polices (or lack of policies) which discourage designated groups.

    Well if lack of harassment policies have the most impact of the lower classified employees in an organization then they are having a negative impact on designated groups.

    The only way to stop that cycle is to put a workplace harassment policy in for all employees because its the only way to educate (also a component of employee equity) other employees about what is and is not acceptable behavior.

    Its usually those higher up in an organization who are aware of government legislation of this type. So they may be very careful in who they harrass. But they are actually role models for others seeking their way up the ladder. Others may see this behavior as a means to how you get ahead in that organization. However, they may not be as aware of all the impacts. There are a lot more sheep in this world who follow other's leads than there are actually leaders.

    This keeps trickling down until you get staff members who are actually all pitted against each other and its what I call a poisen work environment.

    Quebec outlines in its legislation what it feels is workplace harassment so there is already that to go on.
    Polly
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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly_G
    Yeah, but it really is dysfunctional thinking. Even in the case where the 17 guys ganged up, there, I'm sure, were legal avenues you could have taken but chose not to.
    I was 14... even now lawyers still never come to mind when I'm in trouble.
    INTj
    "... the present is too much for the senses, too crowding, too confusing, too present to imagine" - RF

  37. #37

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    When I'm in trouble many of the possibilities come to mind. Some I might act on, some I won't.

    But like I said before, bullying is one of those issues that I'm sensitive about. Being a victim of it before and knowing the impacts makes me not tolerate it. I will try to find someway to make them accountable for their actions because I think its really important in detering the behavior. Behavior, which is extremely damaging to those around the bully.

    I guess I kind of look at it like I'm in a bit of a better vanatage spot to fight bullies. Most of their tactics just won't work on me and I'm just so aware now of the dynamics that I have little emphathy for them. I don't need other people to fight my battles so the recruitment the bully does doesn't really work either. Whether I'm taking one one person or a group over an issue, to me it makes no dif.

    As long as I have right on my side, I'm good.
    Polly
    ENTP

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