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Thread: VI: What it is, misconceptions, and how to learn it

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    Default VI: What it is, misconceptions, and how to learn it


    A good understanding of VI on this forum could advance the English-speaking Socionics community by leaps and bounds…
    I’m writing this post to address some misconceptions about Socionics VI, to tell the truth about it.

    VI—the visual identification of Socionics types –is the easiest way to make Socionics benefit you in your day-to-day life. It can help you to make ACCURATE snap judgments about friends', co-workers' personalities—anyone'.

    After one becomes competent at Socionics, becoming good at VI is simple; however, like many things, (e.g. a musical instrument,) it takes A LOT of practice to become good at VI. (There are pitfalls too, which I’ll address.)

    Unfortunately for VI as a concept in the English-speaking Socionics community, there are less than a handful of VI experts on this forum—and currently, there are ZERO 100% correct VI galleries. The myriad of incompentent VI opinions expressed on this forum, elsewhere, and in VI galleries makes VI look like a crapshoot.

    VI is not a crapshoot. It only looks this way because currently, it is practiced incompetently.

    (Same principle as when I first picked up the guitar—it sounded like shit… But now that I know some chords, I can play songs.)

    Skepticism regarding VI in this community:
    Thus far, what’s been published about Socionics VI in English has been very confusing and often, flat wrong (e.g. most of Gulenko’s Socionics.com VI section… Frankly, it’s taken years to un-tangle the mess that site has made of the English Socionics’ community’s understanding of VI… Likewise, Ashton’s Delta and Gamma Socionix VI galleries are full of incorrect typings, which cause a lot of confusion among the ten or so people who subscribe to Model X… To be fair though, Ashton’s beta and alpha typings are often quite good… In a much different vein, Rick’s VI of the actor Robert DeNiro as SLI has led to confusion regarding that type, which continues to this day re: SLI vs. LSI. Giving credit where it’s due, however, Rick is one of the most accurate English-speaking Socionists and most of his typings are spot on.)

    Currently, many in our community to write-off VI as quackery, or at least on the fringes re: Socionics’ value—mostly due to its seeming unreliability, which is, unfortunately, engendered by the incompetency of the aforementioned practitioners and randoms on this forum. (Again, this is not to say these are incompetent Socionists—they just have some bad VI typings which have led to confusion.)

    What Socionics VI is:

    Socionics VI, when done by a VI expert, (one without any agenda except to get the typing right,) can NEARLY ALWAYS help identify one’s leading function or quadra—and thus give great insight into one’s probable type.
    Less often, (but remarkably often all things considered,) Socionics VI, when done by a VI expert, can help identify one’s exact type, and even subtype (!) (Subtypes, indeed, have recognizable VI traits.)

    In theory, learning VI is simple; (however, it’s currently hard because no accurate VI galleries exist in the English-speaking Socionics community… I’m offering to compose one; however, I don’t have a shitload of time atm.) After studying an accurate VI gallery, a Socionist must look at hundreds of photos (of friends, relatives, celebrities, etc,) and memorize the physical looks/shapes of faces and especially eyes. The Socionist must also note the feeling (the empathetic “vibe” as Steve would say, lol,) he/ she receives from each individual photo.

    The eyes are BY FAR the most important and telling characteristic in Socionics VI.

    The Socionist will soon notice how often these physical features/"vibes" repeat. (I was when my eyes were opened to genuine Socionics VI a few months back… I made a new friend the other day just after I VI’d him as LSI and just went up to him.)

    I’ll post some pictures in a reply to test those who want a test.
    Last edited by JuJu; 04-22-2009 at 09:08 PM.

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    To be honest, I am very skeptical of VI. Mostly because of how physically different people are, it comes off strange that there are 16 or sets of physical attributions that denote type. But what I can agree with is the concept of types having a "vibe." To me, I can look at people and get an idea from them, or watching them talk or whatever in some manner. So I would like to be open-minded and see what you have to say, because there are so many people who say "This person is such an obvious SiTe" or whatever, and the next person will be "What are you talking about, this is a clear example of an FeNi!" It's gained the reputation that you have described, but I can't say I wouldn't want some technique to exist to help type people that doesn't involve asking them strange questions about the way they think. So good luck, I'm glad you're attempting this

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    Here is a test for those who want to try... Guess the quadra of these groups just by VI:

    1.



    2.



    3.



    4.


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    since I know 3 & 4 already I'll do 1 & 2

    1. Delta (Just feel Te/Fi. Seem to be largely rationals)
    2. Alpha (Ne/Si, irrational majority)

    But I admit to novice VIing skills.
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    1 Gamma
    2 Delta
    3 Alpha
    4 Beta

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    1. "we are all well adjusted!"

    2. "all have fun, now!!"

    3. "are you looking for trouble?"

    4. "we are almost letting go"
    haha basically.

    I would answer but I already know the answer to several of those pics :x

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    Great thread JuJu. For the record, I've never advocated VI as a sole means of typing individuals, but I do believe it is a very important facet of socionics. Just by observing body language, things like temperments or whether someone is -leading or ego, or neither, can often become clear.

    A huge part of learning VI is making mistakes. And learning where you went wrong and should have got right. Nobody bypasses that part.

    Even at the risk of being wrong, I will offer my own thoughts on the people in JuJu's "test."

    Save for a few, I can't really get too confident a read on any of the people in pics 1 and 2, so I'll skip to 3. Usually more than one picture with different angles is required before I can start eliminating certain types with any sort of certainty.

    Picture 3, from left to right: First guy strikes me as ILE-Ti, maybe EIE-Ni as a possible alternative, but still leaning strongly toward the first option. Girl is IEI-Ni. Other guy is LSI, unsure of subtype, leaning toward Ti.

    Picture 4, left to right: Guy possibly EIE-Fe. Other guy ESE, unsure of subtype. Third guy, ILE-Ne. Last guy, SEI-Si.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Mimosa, DeAnte, Masterful Mischief, look.to.the.sky, Archon... several of my favorite people here have already answered...

    look.to.the.sky, you're right--it's more about a "vibe" (sorry Steve for taking your word) you get from one's eyes than any particular facial/body feature... It's strange though--after awhile, you begin to notice certain 'stock appearances' e.g. "oh, that LSI looks a lot like another one..." on and on

    I'll give the answer to the test tomorrow.

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    I'm with glamourama on this one. 1. reminds me of being at my sister-in-law's house - somewhere where I couldn't feel anymore out of place. 4. Reminds me of being with my best friend. 3. Is clearly Beta. 2. doesn't strike me in any particular way, so I would have to say that it's Delta by default. (Although one of the guys reminds me of an SLI friend I have.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    look.to.the.sky, you're right--it's more about a "vibe" (sorry Steve for taking your word)
    It's all good . I never coined it. Actually I think I remember first hearing Sarah use the word in this context and liked it. I think it was the people who were frustrated by my usage of it that first attributed it to me haha.

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    I've seen 2 out of 4 of these already, so I don't want to be a cheater and play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirena View Post
    I've seen 2 out of 4 of these already, so I don't want to be a cheater and play.
    LOL, true... I should've used different pictures, dammit.

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    JuJu's avatar is beautiful and majestic.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    VI the way it seems like you're talking about it, by looking at people's expressions, stance, presentation, etc., makes sense. In the past, some people have talked about VI by looking at things like nose shape and size of forehead, and that has kind of hurt the credibility of VI around here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    JuJu's avatar is beautiful and majestic.
    LSI!@!@!@!@#jksadkjasHGAJSGKAGSHJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    JuJu's avatar is beautiful and majestic.
    LOL!!!

    Yes, I was going "fag..." How'd I do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    VI the way it seems like you're talking about it, by looking at people's expressions, stance, presentation, etc., makes sense. In the past, some people have talked about VI by looking at things like nose shape and size of forehead, and that has kind of hurt the credibility of VI around here.
    Yes, I remember reading stuff about the distance between eyes--you know, just complete bullshit lol.

    The thing is though, you know: Socionics VI does work... Everyone here could learn it well with a good template and practice. That's the message.

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    Yeah, and in fact when I saw that picture of you, my immediate thought was that it looks a TON like a picture of my EIE dad when he was young. Without thinking of Socionics or VI or anything. Just, "Wow, that looks like that picture of my dad when he was in college."
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    gamma
    alpha
    delta
    beta
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamajama View Post
    gamma
    alpha
    delta
    beta
    Are these serious suggestions?

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    Are these serious suggestions?
    Entirely.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    LOL, true... I should've used different pictures, dammit.
    LOL no worries.

    Hey I was wondering, are all 4 quadras represented in the VI test?
    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    JuJu's avatar is beautiful and majestic.
    Dualzzzzzzzz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirena View Post
    Hey I was wondering, are all 4 quadras represented in the VI test?
    Yup, all four... You have a head-start... Try!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Yup, all four... You have a head-start... Try!
    Yeah but then I'd give half of the answers away!

    ETA: Although if I answer all 4, no one will know which ones I do and don't know. Wow, I'm slow . Here goes:

    1. Delta
    2. Alpha
    3. Beta
    4. Gamma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamajama View Post
    Entirely.
    Then I am quite amazed that anyone would guess Delta for pic three.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    delta, gamma, beta, alpha
    EII; E6(w5)

    i am flakey

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    Are these serious suggestions?
    Remember what you said in your previous post, people are here to learn and make mistakes. This forum is about how we all see things differently, right? Some things are more obvious to you and to other people. I think we can avoid conflict by being encouraging or at least empathizing with wanting to learn and being open to suggestions

    ETA: Oops, forgot my guesses.

    1. Delta
    2. Alpha
    3. Beta
    4. Gamma

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    FWIW, I'll give you my gut reaction to the pics:
    1. they seem "nice" but really stiff... and potentially boring.
    2. they seem interesting and cool. slightly too poser-ish for me. fun to hang out with, but they'd eventually wear me out.
    3. uh. the group i'd LEAST hang out with in this set.
    4. they look fun and easy going. the group i'd MOST befriend.
    EII; E6(w5)

    i am flakey

  28. #28

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    delta
    gamma
    beta
    alpha

    Although I don't think all people in the pictures belong to the quadra.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    I love VI, but pretty much suck at it.

    And, for some reason, I'm more likely to ID the stuff around 'em than anything remotely relevant.
    Halo effect's unavoidable.

    (i.e. Cocktail Glasses v. Pizza v. Beer Cans v. Cowboy Hats)

    (i.e. Old Women v. Hipster Wannabes v. Death Glare v. ...Cowboy Hats)


    But anyway, I'm feeling: Gamma -- Delta -- Beta -- Alpha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    Remember what you said in your previous post, people are here to learn and make mistakes. This forum is about how we all see things differently, right? Some things are more obvious to you and to other people. I think we can avoid conflict by being encouraging or at least empathizing with wanting to learn and being open to suggestions
    Yes, you are correct. That one just stuck out to me like a "sore thumb."

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    Yes, you are correct. That one just stuck out to me like a "sore thumb."
    I think a great way to communicate that is to describe the features you find definite of what quadra you guessed for that picture and ask to see if anyone else picked up or agree with the features you noticed! I really have no idea what features everyone is looking at, I just go by gut impressions, so I'm curious to hear what details you noticed to help me, and possibly others, pick up on them in the future

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I think a great way to communicate that is to describe the features you find definite of what quadra you guessed for that picture and ask to see if anyone else picked up or agree with the features you noticed! I really have no idea what features everyone is looking at, I just go by gut impressions, so I'm curious to hear what details you noticed to help me, and possibly others, pick up on them in the future
    Might divulge a bit on that after JuJu reveals his answers. And assuming he doesn't give quadra identification hints himself in the process.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    hard to guess...

    1) Gamma. There is a strong ISFj feel to this. Very buttoned-up and polite. The two women on the right look ISFj to me, the one in the middle, ENTj?

    2) Alpha. I really like their fashion sense and hair do's. The girl w/ the short hair looks ENTp and the guy next to her is some sort of IP. They seem like they'd be super fun, but as cool as they seem, I don't think I'd belong in this quadra because I'm not feeling any Fi here. Guy on far right looks ENTp also.

    3) Beta. I don't like how they have a sort of "I'm better than you" vibe, especially w/ that guy lifting his chin a bit. The guy on the left seems kinda ENxP though he could be an INFp and the girl some sort of IxxP or maybe ENFj actually. The guy looks like someone I wouldn't like. They seem "serious" but I think they are Beta because they all seem "serious" in the same way so maybe that's Fe. It bothers me how the girl's necklaces and hair everywhere looks uncomfortable and not very Si...all of those necklaces look itchy. Actually all of their appearances lack a bit of Si...they almost look like they rolled out of bed (not that Deltas don't do that of course)

    4) Delta. I'm not sure if this actually is Delta, but I'd like it to be because they look so fun and welcoming and I love that guy's random cowboy hat! I considered Alpha for this one also, but I'm going w/ Delta.

    It's hard because each photo has such a different sense of fashion in the group. I think if we had 4 photos of ALL hipster friends in their 20s it'd be easier to see the quadra differences from facial expression alone. But good exercise! I like it.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

  34. #34
    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    According to dem stereotypes:

    Delta
    Gamma
    Beta
    Alpha

    Id probably hand out with the 2nd group or the 4th. Wonder what that says.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
    The Ineffable IEI
    The Einstein ENTp

    johari nohari
    http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/

  35. #35
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    I've analyzed the responses so far. Here they are:

    (D = Delta, G = Gamma, etc.)

    1. G G G D D D D G D
    2. D D A A G A G A G
    3. A B D B B B B B B
    4. B A B G A G A D A

    Here is my analysis:

    1. Gamma or Delta - Fi-valuing
    2. Mainly Delta or Alpha - Ne-valuing
    3. Predominantly Beta
    4. Predominantly Alpha or Beta - Fe-valuing

    Therefore, since 3. is probably Beta, 4. is probably Alpha (since option 4. is the only other predominantly Fe-valuing group). That means that 2. is probably Delta (because that is the only apparently Ne-valuing group remaining), and therefore 1. is probably Gamma (the only Fi-valuing group remaining). I've also tried to see if there is some other probable possibility, based on the responses - there isn't. So, based on my analysis of the responses so far, I'm sticking with my guess:

    1. Gamma
    2. Delta
    3. Beta
    4. Alpha

    Jason
    LII

  36. #36
    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Would your answers be different if you were the first person to respond? Or are you more interested in VI as a concept rather than learning it?

  37. #37
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    Would your answers be different if you were the first person to respond?
    No. See my original post.

    Or are you more interested in VI as a concept rather than learning it?
    Why would you think that I'm more interested in one as opposed to the other?
    LII

  38. #38
    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Reading your post, it seemed like you based your answers on the information from the responses rather than your impression from the pictures. I was just curious

  39. #39
    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    beta

    alpha

    delta

    gamma
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  40. #40
    Creepy-

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    Good test

    Here are my guesses [haven't read others' yet]:
    Gamma
    Alpha
    Beta
    Delta

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