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Thread: EII-ILE supervision relations (INFj and ENTp)

  1. #1
    Creepy-male

    Default EII-ILE supervision relations (INFj and ENTp)

    Ok, since this is one of the underpinnings of my huge tower of issues with an ILE typing, let's discuss the nature of EII's supervision of ILE.

    Fi PoLR in ILEs: not wanting to let ethics (like, the normal ones) get in the way of Ne impulses; or, disregarding "the nice thing to say" in light of just putting your ideas out there.

    Supervision forces the ILE to ____? Or rather, the ILE feels boxed in because they have to watch themselves? I'd like to know what should technically be going on in this intertype. Also consider that one of my longest friends is EII, so I *should* hopefully have some idea as to what happens in my head when dealing with them.

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    First up if you're an EII (or any other type in fact) it's risky business messing with an ILE .... if you don't believe me just try it and Se what happens !!!

    Now from my own experience EII strike most effectively at the PoLR of an ILE when the EII initially presents themselves in a cheerful manner and as "a friend", and then either

    [A] "Coldly" withdraws into themselves and expresses distaste as the ILE takes the bait and reciprocates with Fe
    or
    [B] "Coldly" dismembers the supposed friendship with the ILE in favor of any third party that may make themselves present.

    the "pain" the ILE experiences stems from the simplistic and deep seated need ILEs tend to have "to be liked" or "to be thought highly of" [or at the very least not to be the subject of such value judgments] while at the same time ILEs lack the ability to distinguish between what is simply "politeness" in others and what may count as signals indicating the commencement of a genuine friendship.
    ILE

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    Assuming I am an ILE, my EII aunt supervises me by giving me advice I haven't asked for. For instance, she is always saying me things like "in life, there are no real friendships","that woman only wants money","don't trust people", etc.

    At the same time, I supervise my LSI father by telling him things about socionics, etc. He refuses to listen to me but he ends up reading the stuff I talk about.

    The supervisee acknowledges the supervisor is right, but doesn't want to "surrender".
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Well, I'm not an ILE but I imagine that having an Fi PoLR makes one averse to or uncomfortable with systems that are based on personal sentiments. I don't prefer these sorts of systems either but I feel that I share other similarities with EIIs such as intoversion, a rational temperament and an Se PoLR. I guess that with an ILE such systems feel more like kicks in the gut?

    Actually, I have no idea. Sorry.
    This actually seems to summarize my feelings rather nicely. I get uncomfortable when discussions involve matters of personal preference or sentiments because I'm not sure how to express my own without making it a logical assessment. I don't get how you can simply assess a relationship as good or bad without a logical justification. It comes out the most when I'm asked to assess personal relationships. Rather than saying why I like someone, I tend to say why I SHOULD like something. Additionally, if I feel adversion to someone or something without a good reason, it makes me upset and confused and I'll sit there assessing the situation until I no longer feel that way.

    With EIIs I admire their calmness and their ability to remain openminded when addressing those personal issues. However, it's like dealing with someone who can do something amazing that you can't. When you have to deal with it head on, it's extremely frustrating because the person can't frame things in the way you want them to, but at the same time you secretly wish you could do things more like them.

    Here's my justification for all of this, lol:

    If you're sitting on a Base function (in this case Ne), that is the function through which you collect information. You are seeking out Base triggers and thereby filtering information this way. The Creative function, second half of your ego, is the vehicle by which you channel all of this information (in this case Ti). If you are in a relationship of supervision, your supervisor is communicating in your language (Your Base Ne, their Creative Ne), but they are addressing issues that you have difficulty filtering (Your PoLR Fi, their Base Fi).

    For myself, this results in the feeling that you hear what the other person is saying, but they're talking about things that you don't fully understand.
    ILE
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    Very busy with work. Only kind of around.

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    EII here, with an ILE dad and (for most of my life) best friend.

    TBH, I'm not sure I see a whole lot of hardcore supervision going on with either. Something in me gets pretty complacent and compromising (may be a Delta-ish "keep the peace" thing), and instead I look for that oh-so-comfortable -common ground. Long as we're playing there, things are pretty darn smooth, productive, and (occasionally) crazy-fun.

    The only downside (for me, anyway) is when an ILE shows even the slightest bit of . I just lose it. I kick 'em in the teeth. That rare-seen EII fury goes absolutely ape. Most people laugh when I go off (it's just so out of place for me); but in these "supervisory" situations, ILE's bite back. I assume they want coddling or applause or something, but instead give 'em the back-hand.

    "You can stop now. That's my role. Thanks for playing. Better luck next time."

    I'd say I'm usually a really nice guy. Overly nice. But if anything's gonna make me an ass, it's probably an unusually emo ILE. I can't conceive of 'em like that, don't want to conceive of 'em like that, and do everything in my power to make sure I never again have to see 'em like that. If you can't depend on ILE's for bone-dry, ice-cold wit, the world just ain't right.

  6. #6
    Creepy-male

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    Alright, ClLi, what is Fi in ILEs to you? And what's the nature of this EII fury?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon
    Alright, what is Fi in ILEs to you?
    To be fair, it's really rare. Almost never pops up.

    To me, it's this "awkwardly somber, semi-withdrawn, gazing-into-the distance trance-y state" where they "ramble about 'how they truly, deeply feel' or 'how they intimately (almost spiritually) emo-connected with someone.'"

    If not that scenario, it's "a calm, relaxed, faux-passive judgment of how ethically wrong another person (or, more often, 'humanity') really is."

    These are things I see in myself pretty often, come to think of it. Must drive ILEs insane.

    And what's the nature of this EII fury?
    It's cruel. It's wrong. It's shameful.

    Sometimes I get all SLE (or what I imagine that'd be) and mock their emotion, succinctly and sarcastically. Other times, I'm just stern and bitterly silent, staring off at my own "in-the-distance" as if I can't, won't, and never did hear a word they're saying.

    Kinda hurts to type that, but it's truth.

    ILEs is good people, really.

  8. #8
    Creepy-male

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    Hmm, I've never been in that situation.

    However:

    [A] "Coldly" withdraws into themselves and expresses distaste as the ILE takes the bait and reciprocates with Fe

    This happened to me some years ago with an EII. We'd be all chummy and awesome, but then, out of nowhere, he'd go all cold and snarky and abusive. Comparing the LSE's response to that sort of thing: "Isn't he always like that?"

    But again, 0% identification with anything Vero posted :|

    *sigh*

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    Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you.

    No, you can't.

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    Yes I can, yes I can, yes I can!

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    My best friend is my supervisor... looks nothing like this though!

    She always says that I bring out her good side! Without me, she wouldn't be so nice. But I feel like I always have to report my decisions for whatever reason about stuff... I like it to a point.
    ENTp... love it

    3w2

  11. #11

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    My best friend is EII. Known him for 19 years now. Would say he is Ne subtype so that probably what makes things a little easier. Around him I tend to go off in an Ne show off mode. While he laughs at my jokes, I think he gets embarrassed when the jokes go into ignoring Fi, and I'm being loud with them, say at a restuarant.

    My main annoyances with him is he tries to stifle my activities if it's out of bounds of what he considers fun. That just makes me want to act out more. And he gets into this whole holier than thou attitude, or "I'm doing this for your own good." Very frustrating. In the past couple years, we have ended the friendship four times, and stopped speaking. Its hard getting second chances with him. I think the only reason I get them is because I've known him so long. And yeah of course its always something I did. Which I think is unfair, but I can't seem to win otherwise.

    And he hated my SLE friend to the bone even before he met him. LMAO. All I did was describe what we did for fun.

    My aunt is EII too. Heavy on the Fi. I stay away from her as much as possible.
    ILE

  12. #12
    Creepy-male

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    Sorry, ScanDave, could you give me exaples of your friend or auntie using Fi?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Sorry, ScanDave, could you give me exaples of your friend or auntie using Fi?
    My EII friend and I were mutual friends with this girl, Beta NF likely IEI, three years ago. Well he stops talking to her for his reasons, and I stop dealing with her for mine. Last September he decides he wanted to speak to her again. So we go hang out at a bar. He tells her why he stopped talking to her, and he wants the "close cirlce" back that we had years ago. I was unaware there was such a thing, and was put on the spot and blamed for this circle being destroyed. I was frozen and uncomfortable. I was secretly hoping for a fire to start so I could get out of there. He told me to vow to maintain the close cirlce again. I tried to resist as much as I could, but I gave in.

    Two months later he is not talking to her again, and talking trash about her any chance he gets. She had a birthday party coming up, we were invited. A week before her party, she told me not to bring him, "He will mess it up." I tell her "Thats not for me to handle its your birthday you need to tell him that since you invited him." At the same time he is reluctant to go to her birthday, but is going to keep his promise to her that he would come. I'm confused here. I have no idea what is going on between them because in my mind it is contrary to the whole close circle thing that was made a big deal out of.

    Two days after her birthday party, she tells me she is being kicked out her house for not coming home. I tell my friend this, and he starts demonizing her as a person. I ask him where is this coming from and what is his justification. And he says he does not deal with people that do this and that. I thought there was more to this he was not telling me. Thinking about maintaining the close circle I vowed to keep, I tell her what is up with him, and ask why is he saying these things. I thought I was being left in the dark, and again this is contrary to what I understood about the close circle. Big mistake. She gets all dramatic, and bitches him out, and ends the friendship with him. He does not want to be friends with me because I broke his trust.

    I get even more confused. My friend goes on this rant about me stealing his friends, and ruining his relationships. And what I did was unforgivable. And that somehow I "fell for it," (one of the worse things I think you can tell an ILE is that he/she fell for it) that this girl was trying to break up the friendship between me and him and she succeeded. But at the same time blaming me for her not wanting to be friends with him. From my point of view it did not seem they wanted to be friends at all, so why am I being kicked to the curb so easily? So yeah that situation hurt.

    My friend and I ended up reconciling. Recently it turned out the girl was indeed trying to break up our friendship and cause drama after all. My SEI friend explained it to me in way that I can appreciate and understand. It still kind of escapes me though.

    I think my EII friend knew what distance he wanted with the girl, and wanted to maintain that. Something I cannot understand no matter how hard I try. I thought something was wrong between my friends, and that needed to be aired out. I felt tense and uncomfortable being in the middle. My attempt to air things out was a violation of my friend's trust because the result was her not wanting to be friends with him, from his point of view. I think my actions destroyed the distance he wanted to maintain with her, and thusly destroying the distance I had with him. To me I did not see what the fuss was about because it seemed they were not good friends at all. I had no idea such a thing would cause such a rift. But my friend thought I should of known the whole time, but chose to hurt him and his relationship anyway. Not fair at all.

    As for my aunt. She tries to get me to have a personal relationship with her. Like requests I come over her house and stay with her some time. I just freeze up when she does it. It extends to her dog too. Like she gets on me for not being close with her dog. So I try playing with him, but no matter what I do its not enough to get her off my back. I'm tired of hearing that I don't love her dog. She has said that I don't love my family in the past too. Hurtful stuff.
    ILE

  14. #14
    Creepy-male

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    Thanks

    Hope that wasn't too hard to post. *hug*

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    My ILE ex dated an EII for a short while. She would call him out whenever he would show his Ti and reprimand him for being a "jerk" even over some small things, such as killing other players in a computer game, because she thought it was insensitive. She would try to dictate terms of relationship based on her moods and periodically throw tantrums. She wasn't very healthy imo, and he broke up with her within about 4 months. He ended up marrying an EII girl later, though I haven't asked for details about how it is going.

    I also knew an EII who would consistently target ILEs for casual sex and then dump them just as ILE was getting attached. She would speak very lowly of them afterwards as if she enjoyed humiliating them. She definitely had issues and some kind of inferiority complex, and was use supervision to act it out.

    Overall I think this is one of the softer supervision relationships, however, the ILE isn't going to appreciate hearing about what kind of 'monster' of a person he/she is on regular basis from the EII.


    edit: examples of EII-ILE supervision
    Agarina-Aquagraph: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post853806
    lungs/kassie-hkkmr: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post885661
    lungs-ambivalent existence: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post864995
    Last edited by silke; 07-13-2012 at 07:34 AM.

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    lol, i found it amusing.

    idk, there's only one person i've known irl i think was ILE. we worked together at a fast food place. when we cooked together, he would crack some joke about every customer -- like he'd pick some random ridiculous thing about their appearance or something and go off about it. it was totally hilarious, even if kind of mean. often i would laugh. but sometimes i would give him this sort of, "hey, now" raised eyebrow look that was meant to be just as commisserating and empathetic as it was chastising, but he didn't seem to take it that way and would seem to be bothered when i reacted that way.

    there was this one woman we worked with that he would regularly call a crackhead in a teasing manner and he seemed to be oblivious to why this would bother her. one time when i was talking to her on break she brought it up and started crying about it. so the next time he called her that, i pulled him aside and started telling him that he should really think sometimes before he jokes with people. his only defense was, "but its a JOKE!" and he completely blew off what i had to say.

    another time he was going off about his girlfriend and how she bought him mcdonald's but she bought it a few hours before he got home and it was cold. and he was going off about what a "stupid bitch" she was and i was like "wtf" and we ended up arguing about it. i kept asking him if he was joking and he kept insisting he was serious. i still have absolutely no idea, i'm inclined to think he really was joking bc it was just so stupid to get mad about.

    anyway, he was like 18 years old and probably not a picture of what all ILEs are like or anything.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    nice find Laghlagh...now for me...I supervise ILE in many ways. The following are some...

    ILE Ne people so much that they can put them neatly into boxes, ignoring their individuality, hence overlooking the person's emotional nature, as do most Alpha quad members, because of devalued Fi. I don't like this and I find myself giving them explanations as to what individual feeling perpetuate people to think and act a certain way, that they often miss, disregard, and overlook.

    I give them morals, and they don't like it. They aren't concerned about morality; they want Si + Fe. None of "you should, and you shouldn't" We might try to dictate and control their friendships too, especially if we're jealous of their detachment from us and where we see that they are shifting their attention to others instead of us. I'm OBVIOUSLY a very very very mature EII and am not into doing things like this, just like Dolphin who watches herself and her actions consciously around me.

    I enjoy them because with their Ne, they are able to see how ideas fit into systems/categories; I can see the idea, but don't care much about putting a label on it or categorizing it, especially not with regard to people. There's an inherent hypocrisy to what I'm saying here and that is that I'm using Socionics to put people in boxes and label them, but I freely remove my socionics hat once a person becomes a part of my subjective experience. That person becomes an individual who's emotions are very unique and so unique that they are music with unlimited and infinite tone. They often see ideas in things that I wish I had seen, but that I know I would have had I paid more attention to this function.

    I feel like all Se types supervise me because they call my attention to reality so often that it exhausts me, not letting me delve into my inner world. I imagine I don't let NeTi delve into their outer world at least not without bringing them to notice of something which is what creates supervision.

    @ Vero:

    Ne does not collect information.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-13-2011 at 06:38 AM.

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    The only time that I felt like the EII was supervising an ILE was when the EII brings up the "law" argument. The EII was like, "Don't you know that it's against the law to...", and tries to give some "practical" advice to the ILE, perhaps to show him the consequences of such and such actions. The ILE can "act out" and be chaotic, but this will make the EII become more convinced of his own arguments. I don't know, but Deltas seem to care a lot about the "law".

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    re: Fi: iILE's perceives no personal attractions/repulsions save the most obvious. if they do perceive them,they try to "fix" them usually by joking, or by drawing the conflict out into the open, or some such. they don't make decisions with relationships in mind....they make decisions with logic in mind. an example i can think of from my own life are my decisions about who to get into relationships with. i really didn't care what my parents thought, so i didn't try to carefully prepare or persuade them about my choices, i simply made my choices (which i knew they wouldn't agree with) and let things fall where they may. basically ILE functions independently from relationships.

    EII's are astounded by the lack of precision and automatically try to correct it. these things seem so obvious to them. they will patiently explain to the ILE who gets it in the moment but will make the same mistake a day later.

    re: Ne: i think here EII sees the ILE Ne as being wild and out of control, and again expects more precision and modifies the ILE's Ne.

    what the heck the only thing an ILE can do is find an SEE....and watch them mess eith EII. there is some solace in that.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    As an ILE, I would say that EII's I know terrify me. I'll be chatting lightly about something, being personable or friendly, and I can't shake the feeling that it makes no difference what I say or do, that they have an opinion of me that I can't impact. It feels incredibly disarming, and makes me feel irreparably...broken. The worst part is, they are so nice about all of it- I worry primarily about what they aren't telling me.

    Something about leading makes me feel like there's something written on my forehead that only they can see, but at least my super-ego and conflictors give me something to rebel against lol. That said, I respect these EII's in my life a lot, but their influence can make me hyper-aware of vulnerabilities.

    Also, I find their use of interesting. If I'm busy being self-conscious of how I'm being perceived with them present, they get to have all the fun making Ne-lite suggestions to the group.
    This is the place where I procrastinate on things Sig related.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by VILEvenezuelan View Post
    As an ILE, I would say that EII's I know terrify me. I'll be chatting lightly about something, being personable or friendly, and I can't shake the feeling that it makes no difference what I say or do, that they have an opinion of me that I can't impact. It feels incredibly disarming, and makes me feel irreparably...broken. The worst part is, they are so nice about all of it- I worry primarily about what they aren't telling me.

    Something about leading makes me feel like there's something written on my forehead that only they can see, but at least my super-ego and conflictors give me something to rebel against lol. That said, I respect these EII's in my life a lot, but their influence can make me hyper-aware of vulnerabilities.

    Also, I find their use of interesting. If I'm busy being self-conscious of how I'm being perceived with them present, they get to have all the fun making Ne-lite suggestions to the group.
    I'll tell you Everything you want to know. So, what do you want to know? With Fi, the only thing we don't like is that you don't empathize with people when you have them in categories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I'll tell you Everything you want to know. So, what do you want to know? With Fi, the only thing we don't like is that you don't empathize with people when you have them in categories.
    What would that empathizing look like? Lol.

    I have certainly pissed people off by talking about socionics too early in the friendship(gotten some pushback for the categorizing thing).

    Another question- if I use categories to try to empathize, does that miss the point? For example, I get annoyed when people use "Logical Fallacies" to determine whether or not something makes sense in a causal way- as though someone is right because some obscure logical rule they memorized says so. My response to this sounded a lot like what I've seen other Fi-egos respond to when I talk socionics around them-- sort of a rejection of the idea that something is so because of the category (since it would logically be the other way around).

    Since that was long-winded and unclear (sorry!), I guess I'm asking-- does it defeat the purpose of empathizing if I use socionics as a surrogate when doing so?

    Thanks for the offer of assistance. There's that unnerving kindness I was talking about
    This is the place where I procrastinate on things Sig related.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by VILEvenezuelan View Post
    What would that empathizing look like? Lol.

    I have certainly pissed people off by talking about socionics too early in the friendship(gotten some pushback for the categorizing thing).

    Another question- if I use categories to try to empathize, does that miss the point? For example, I get annoyed when people use "Logical Fallacies" to determine whether or not something makes sense in a causal way- as though someone is right because some obscure logical rule they memorized says so. My response to this sounded a lot like what I've seen other Fi-egos respond to when I talk socionics around them-- sort of a rejection of the idea that something is so because of the category (since it would logically be the other way around).

    Since that was long-winded and unclear (sorry!), I guess I'm asking-- does it defeat the purpose of empathizing if I use socionics as a surrogate when doing so?

    Thanks for the offer of assistance. There's that unnerving kindness I was talking about
    When you don't feel like you have to feel bad for people because of what you say or do. LOL I categorize too I get the same reaction from people as you so I have to save socionics in my bag.

    Second question, the answer is no, it doesn't defeat the purpose of Fi surrogate because Fi can use socionics, like you can except when a person becomes subjective they throw out rules.

    Umm, I'm a VERY evolved EII...in regards to your unnerving kindness of EII's.

    Finally a real ILE has shown up!!!!

    Thanks for being here.

    Please remember a few things. 1. I'm not as quick as you are and 2. I'm kinda sick right now so I'm thinking much slower and typing slower than I usually do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    When you don't feel like you have to feel bad for people because of what you say or do.
    Whoa. My wonderful SEI girlfriend just helped me understand this. Its sort of mind-blowing. This seems unsympathetic- but sympathy and empathy aren't quite the same I guess. My understanding of is telling me that this is about respect for personal difference and the uniqueness of subjective experience. Is the idea to sort of "get out of people's heads" so you can listen to them? I could be totally off, but it seems almost like an issue of exaggerating my own role in my idea of what someone else's mind looks like.

    Also,
    "Finally a real ILE has shown up!!!!"

    Unsure what you mean, which piques my curiosity- could you elaborate perhaps?

    Thanks for the tutelage lol
    This is the place where I procrastinate on things Sig related.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by VILEvenezuelan View Post
    Whoa. My wonderful SEI girlfriend just helped me understand this. Its sort of mind-blowing. This seems unsympathetic- but sympathy and empathy aren't quite the same I guess. My understanding of is telling me that this is about respect for personal difference and the uniqueness of subjective experience. Is the idea to sort of "get out of people's heads" so you can listen to them? I could be totally off, but it seems almost like an issue of exaggerating my own role in my idea of what someone else's mind looks like.

    Also,
    "Finally a real ILE has shown up!!!!"

    Unsure what you mean, which piques my curiosity- could you elaborate perhaps?

    Thanks for the tutelage lol
    I don't find very many ILE here. Sympathy and empathy are not the same sort of feeling; one steps into the shoes of another, the other observes objectively.
    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by VILEvenezuelan View Post
    As an ILE, I would say that EII's I know terrify me. I'll be chatting lightly about something, being personable or friendly, and I can't shake the feeling that it makes no difference what I say or do, that they have an opinion of me that I can't impact. It feels incredibly disarming, and makes me feel irreparably...broken. The worst part is, they are so nice about all of it- I worry primarily about what they aren't telling me.
    Relate a lot to this. I'm pretty sure my mother is my supervisor
    She's very easy to talk to and we always have lots to discuss, but I always feel like she doesn't respect me or something. That nothing I say or do is really worth taking seriously.
    And that's just when there's no arguments. When she gets "mad", she blows me out of the sky. Every single "reprimand" makes a huge impact on my behaviour.

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    Default EII/ILE supervision

    Holy crap I wrote a whole huge thread and it's all gone

    Hmm well ok so there is a young ILE in my life, and an older EII. The EII not an emotionally healthy person, and is an adult and the other is a child, so I am guessing this is more extreme than most EII/ILE situations, but I'm wondering if this is familiar in a general sense anyway, other than how extreme it is.

    The EII very pushy and manipulative and really just forces and forces issues until the ILE explodes, and then the EII calls the ILE rude and/or ungrateful.

    Examples:

    EII: How would you like to go a movie with me?
    ILE: OK!
    EII: What movie do you want to see?
    ILE: Movie X
    EII: I've been wanting to see Movie Y. Would you like to see MovieY?
    ILE: I already saw that movie and I didn't like it.
    EII: Well, we could have fun anyway.
    ILE: I don't want to see movie Y. But you can go to that movie without me. We don't have to go to a movie.
    EII: No, that's OK, we can see Movie X if you want.
    (Then on the day of the movie, EII comes to pick up ILE.)
    EII: Are you ready to see Movie Y? I'm so excited!
    ILE: Huh? I told you I don't want to see that movie. We were going to see Movie X.
    EII: I thought we were headed to Movie Y. I haven't even looked up the times for Movie X. But I'm sure you'll have fun at Movie Y.
    ILE: I already saw that movie and didn't like it. I don't want to see it again.
    Me (after looking up movie times): I see Movie X starts only 10 minutes after Movie Y. You can still see that.
    EII: I was really looking forward to seeing Movie Y.
    ILE: I am not going to go to the movies with you if you see that movie. I will only go if you see Movie X.
    EII: You don't have to be rude. You should be grateful that I'm taking you out to a movie at all.
    Me: You and she agreed to see Movie X. What is rude is trying to trick a little kid into going to a movie other than what you agreed to when she was very clear about this the other day. If you don't want to see Movie X, don't take her, and I'll take her.
    EII: (sulking) Fine. Let's go see Movie X.
    Then I heard from ILE that EII tried AGAIN when they got to the theater. She tried buying tickets to Movie Y, and ILE corrected her, and EII said no that they're going to movie Y, and ILE told her to call me to pick her up, because she is NOT going to that movie, and EII gave in and bought tickets for Movie X. Then she talked to ILE through the whole movie complaining about how bad it was and how much better Movie Y would have been.

    EII is no longer allowed to take ILE out without me. But there are dozens of similar situations where EII has been ridiculously pushy and rude, but always under this facade of kindness and generosity, and when ILE says she won't be controlled, EII calls her rude and ungrateful. ILE has a very hard time handling it when EII is pretending to be nice. It's like EII sets it up so either she gets what she wants, or ILE looks rude, and then she chastises ILE for being rude.

    Is this just this EII, or does this happen (maybe to a lesser extent) with other EIIs?
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    I think this sounds more like someone trying to manipulate a kid than anything else. But I don't know anyone I've typed EII, and I am not sure how that supervision relationship works. I have trouble with supervision in general, actually

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    EII is no longer allowed to take ILE out without me. But there are dozens of similar situations where EII has been ridiculously pushy and rude, but always under this facade of kindness and generosity, and when ILE says she won't be controlled, EII calls her rude and ungrateful. ILE has a very hard time handling it when EII is pretending to be nice. It's like EII sets it up so either she gets what she wants, or ILE looks rude, and then she chastises ILE for being rude.
    personally i find this to be consistent with EII-ILE supervision. from what i've seen in a couple of cases, the ILE reacts negatively to what they see as EII's attempts to control them and their behavior. the EII then generally tries to blame any conflict on supposed character flaws of the ILE, making themselves out to be a kind of "martyr" - the "good" one in the situation who is sacrificing themselves, trying to work with the "bad" ILE.

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    No, not all EII are incredibly pushy and rude...
    I think all EII would guilt trip a child in their care if he actually did something questionable, and that wouldn't do ILE much good.

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    I can't imagine that being applicable across the board. :|
    I don't think this is just about the "supervision" dynamic. I dunno. Rar.
    I dunno, I can admit I've done stuff kinda like that before, but I think most people can. But...the extent of that pushiness was kinda...I dunno. Too much, for sure. Could be Se-polr related? I've read Se-polr as being uncertain to how much pressure to exert in a situation, which can lead to too much or too little expression of wants or something. But..I DUNNO. Rar.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Wow, that EII sounds like she has issues.

    I know a few EIIs who do much milder versions of this sometimes - if they get told to do something in a way that they disagree with, they'll do it their way anyway and when challenged, they'll go, "oh, but I thought you told me to do it like that."

    My LII dad often does a similar thing where, if he wants you to make a particular decision, he'll facilitate it to the point of thrusting it upon you, but makes a show of convincing you. For example, he wanted me to get a particular phone because he thought it was better, and had a long conversation with me about its benefits and how much better it was than the one I originally wanted, then offered to partly subsidise it, then when after 10 minutes I gave in, it turned out he'd already bought it for me and it was sitting in his drawer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Maybe if he bought you a phone, he wanted you to like that phone over another one you had in mind. I dunno...just a thought I had; maybe he was afraid you wouldn't appreciate it because you were more partial to another phone, and tried to explain to you why it is good, and then when you seemed disinterested still, made an appealing offer to somehow make it more likable...? I DONT KNOW, haha. Just rambling; this probably doesn't apply right cause I don't know the context well.

    /end deviation from thread.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    My mother and grandmother both do this to me, though less extreme, and they are neither EII nor my supervisors. They're some kind of extraverted ego with Fi, I think. Also an ESI friend who I made the mistake of living with for a while would do this too. So the common denominator seems to be Fi? Immature Fi, to be specific.
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    Slacker, this is really weird. First of all, an EII tries very hard to keep her obligations and accommodate kids, especially; second it's not supervision to tell someone you should be grateful of them just because they do things with you that they want to do. It's called being selfish, and completely type unrelated.

    Are you sure that this isn't an SEE talking; I would never try to impose my will on a little kid. This sounds way too much Se..."hey, let's do this because I am going to say let's do this so you can buy into doing this."

    The extent of EII control over people is "you're this." and response with "no." and then "oh well, that didn't work." But to actually get a kid, an innocent kid to do something they don't want to do and try to pass it off as doing something for them, is just outrageously inconsiderate.

    We're humanists and we care about kids too; this means "hey, if I can afford it, I'll want to please the people I love."

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    Quote Originally Posted by cherrysidecar View Post
    My mother and grandmother both do this to me, though less extreme, and they are neither EII nor my supervisors. They're some kind of extraverted ego with Fi, I think. Also an ESI friend who I made the mistake of living with for a while would do this too. So the common denominator seems to be Fi? Immature Fi, to be specific.
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    I can't imagine that being applicable across the board. :|
    I don't think this is just about the "supervision" dynamic. I dunno. Rar.
    I dunno, I can admit I've done stuff kinda like that before, but I think most people can. But...the extent of that pushiness was kinda...I dunno. Too much, for sure. Could be Se-polr related? I've read Se-polr as being uncertain to how much pressure to exert in a situation, which can lead to too much or too little expression of wants or something. But..I DUNNO. Rar.
    Yes, but that doesn't mean it's premeditated; it happens in response to too much exertion on that function. Like trying to push Se in and having there be a wall that's blocking it; the kid isn't doing Se by saying "I would like to she this movie." That's not Se. I'm having an Se PoLR reaction right now, a reaction which is over reaction at someone bypassing my conception of INFj or my conception of what INFj are like by suggesting something untrue, that somehow Se means tricking kids to see what you want to see instead of what you want them...

    You see the intensity of how I react to this post? This is Se PoLR overreaction. It's rushing to stop a fire before there's a blaze. Trying to mobilize for action in a situation that is less than expected or ideal and doing it poorly because I can't justly remove my attention from the topic, because it's against my Fi, morality.

    Since I can't adequately influence the right amount by stopping my overreaction, and using it with twists and turns, as an Se ego type would with various forms of argumentation, persuasion, and semantics, I am left with very little "protective" defenses, causing me to do nothing except to scream and shout my message to try to get it across, which is actually trying to reason with someone logically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    Maybe if he bought you a phone, he wanted you to like that phone over another one you had in mind. I dunno...just a thought I had; maybe he was afraid you wouldn't appreciate it because you were more partial to another phone, and tried to explain to you why it is good, and then when you seemed disinterested still, made an appealing offer to somehow make it more likable...? I DONT KNOW, haha. Just rambling; this probably doesn't apply right cause I don't know the context well.

    /end deviation from thread.
    I'm sure he meant well (he always means well, he's a great dad) - what rubbed me up the wrong way was that he a) made my choice for me without consultation, and b) let me know in a really indirect, roundabout way. I think my Se-DS and his Se-PoLR just don't work well together in these sorts of situations. I mean, if he just chucked the phone in my lap and said, "This is what you're getting, take it or leave it - this phone is obviously a better deal" I'd feel better about it than with all the manipulation, or if he wasn't so presumptuous and consulted me first instead of making my decision for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Polr hits seem more subtle than this, this sounds like intentionally fucking with a kid just because a kid is more naive and helpless. The type thing could be exacerbating the problem though.

    I think socionics has to do with the way we communicate, what we hear from others when they communicate with us, and how well we can understand them on an intellectual level. So I think being obvious assholeish has nothing to do with type, just that person being a cunt.

    I don't sense 100% evil from the eii, even though yes, that is annoying. I sense more intense condescension with a 'neener neener neener, I'm doing this to you because you're young' sing songy nanny voice.

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    I hate this situation, I just hate this kind of behaviour. She's inconsistent and doesn't keep her word. She's trying to exert her will on someone who trusted her and depended on her. She's trying to limit her freedom. I hate it hate it hate it. I'm so happy I'm not a kid anymore.

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