EIIs/INFjs making snarky comments and ridiculing

[meatburger]

So why do they do it? This is only guys i have observed mind you but ive seen it in three of them. They can be snarky and will call you ugly and stuff like that. It actually annoys me greatly because i personally never ever ever pay out anyone. Yet they are supposedly stronger in than i am? Plus, they cannot take it in return. If you give them shit back they really take it to heart? I think part of the problem is my own strong Fi means that it annoys me when someone does this where other types might just see it as funny.

I personally see it as a sign of insecurity and unhealthiness but perhaps there is some other explanation?

[Ritella]

Give an example.
I find that Fe types make fun of people/gossip a lot and I will be inclined to do it more when in their presence. I do make fun of people, but with the sort of back idea that I basically make fun of anything and everything (including myself). Sometimes, I guess, people don't know that and will think I am singling people out and being cruel. And, I suppose it still is offensive. However, I really can not take most things seriously.

[meatburger]

Give an example.
I find that Fe types make fun of people/gossip a lot and I will be inclined to do it more when in their presence. I do make fun of people, but with the sort of back idea that I basically make fun of anything and everything (including myself). Sometimes, I guess, people don't know that and will think I am singling people out and being cruel. And, I suppose it still is offensive. However, I really can not take most things seriously.

When it happens its basically out of the blue. For example an INFj i know got a good grade at his assignment and i congratulated him on it and said wow high distinction and his reply was "no shit sherlock". This type of language totally perplexes me considering he should be happy. That wasn't an example of making fun though.

About 15 minutes ago i said on facebook that i had to pay money back to the government (about $1000). Another guy not sure his type went "hahahahahahaha". Then the INFj said "Laughing at him isn't mean..... it's human nature..... the one thing in the world more dangerous then the Hadron Collider is us letting our ego go unchecked. we have to damage each others every so often"

Quoted word for word. Dont get me wrong i wasn't offended i dont give a toss but i called him out and said that is rubbish. This same INFj in conversation will call me dumb etc for no apparent reason. I just dont like it because it disrupts my natural harmony. What makes me almost laugh to myself is that these same INFj's are constantly complaining that they feel like the odd one out and that no one likes them. I can see some social changes they could make that would be totally amazing for them but i dont tell them because of their douchebaggery.

[Ritella]

When it happens its basically out of the blue. For example an INFj i know got a good grade at his assignment and i congratulated him on it and said wow high distinction and his reply was "no shit sherlock". This type of language totally perplexes me considering he should be happy. That wasn't an example of making fun though.

About 15 minutes ago i said on facebook that i had to pay money back to the government (about $1000). Another guy not sure his type went "hahahahahahaha". Then the INFj said "Laughing at him isn't mean..... it's human nature..... the one thing in the world more dangerous then the Hadron Collider is us letting our ego go unchecked. we have to damage each others every so often"

Quoted word for word. Dont get me wrong i wasn't offended i dont give a toss but i called him out and said that is rubbish. This same INFj in conversation will call me dumb etc for no apparent reason. I just dont like it because it disrupts my natural harmony. What makes me almost laugh to myself is that these same INFj's are constantly complaining that they feel like the odd one out and that no one likes them. I can see some social changes they could make that would be totally amazing for them but i dont tell them because of their douchebaggery.

OH. I think in both cases the INFJ is being really sarcastic.
like i would say "no shit sherlock" to mean "i KNOW that's a good grade. I'm so happy!"
and i think when the EII posted the facebook comment he was actually subtley commenting on your friend's "ahahahahah," as in "good job showing compassion." The "damage each other every so often" comment basically means he thinks your friend is the one being damaging toward you.

[meatburger]

OH. I think in both cases the INFJ is being really sarcastic.
like i would say "no shit sherlock" to mean "i KNOW that's a good grade. I'm so happy!"
and i think when the EII posted the facebook comment he was actually subtley commenting on your friend's "ahahahahah," as in "good job showing compassion." The "damage each other every so often" comment basically means he thinks your friend is the one being damaging toward you.

Yeah he was basically saying that people should be brought down every now and then. I dont agree at all.

[Ritella]

Yeah he was basically saying that people should be brought down every now and then. I dont agree at all.

yeah but i think he might have been offhandedly disagreeing with that, like if he were saying it in a more sarcastic manner.

[meatburger]

yeah but i think he might have been offhandedly disagreeing with that, like if he were saying it in a more sarcastic manner.

I see hmm thats interesting .

[Kim]

OH. I think in both cases the INFJ is being really sarcastic.
like i would say "no shit sherlock" to mean "i KNOW that's a good grade. I'm so happy!"
and i think when the EII posted the facebook comment he was actually subtley commenting on your friend's "ahahahahah," as in "good job showing compassion." The "damage each other every so often" comment basically means he thinks your friend is the one being damaging toward you.

Yes, that's what I understood those comments to mean.

Edited to add: If you are like me, Meatburger, then you easily miss the sarcasm because you immediately react to the negativity and because you don't want to deal with it, you don't take the time to put the Ne to work.

[Lobo]

So why do they do it? This is only guys i have observed mind you but ive seen it in three of them. They can be snarky and will call you ugly and stuff like that. It actually annoys me greatly because i personally never ever ever pay out anyone. Yet they are supposedly stronger in than i am? Plus, they cannot take it in return. If you give them shit back they really take it to heart? I think part of the problem is my own strong Fi means that it annoys me when someone does this where other types might just see it as funny.

I personally see it as a sign of insecurity and unhealthiness but perhaps there is some other explanation?

When it happens its basically out of the blue. For example an INFj i know got a good grade at his assignment and i congratulated him on it and said wow high distinction and his reply was "no shit sherlock". This type of language totally perplexes me considering he should be happy. That wasn't an example of making fun though.

About 15 minutes ago i said on facebook that i had to pay money back to the government (about $1000). Another guy not sure his type went "hahahahahahaha". Then the INFj said "Laughing at him isn't mean..... it's human nature..... the one thing in the world more dangerous then the Hadron Collider is us letting our ego go unchecked. we have to damage each others every so often"

Quoted word for word. Dont get me wrong i wasn't offended i dont give a toss but i called him out and said that is rubbish. This same INFj in conversation will call me dumb etc for no apparent reason. I just dont like it because it disrupts my natural harmony. What makes me almost laugh to myself is that these same INFj's are constantly complaining that they feel like the odd one out and that no one likes them. I can see some social changes they could make that would be totally amazing for them but i dont tell them because of their douchebaggery.

I don't like making fun of people, unless they are friends, and unless the other person finds it funny as well. I also don't like "mob" laughter towards somebody, where everyone laughs save for the person being made fun at. The only reason I would laugh a bit at someone else's "misfortune" is to help them not take it so seriously, which I think everyone naturally does, and try to find the humor in the bad. What you are describing is behavior that I would have done maybe back in early high school, and seems immature.

[meatburger]

I don't like making fun of people, unless they are friends, and unless the other person finds it funny as well. I also don't like "mob" laughter towards somebody, where everyone laughs save for the person being made fun at. The only reason I would laugh a bit at someone else's "misfortune" is to help them not take it so seriously, which I think everyone naturally does, and try to find the humor in the bad. What you are describing is behavior that I would have done maybe back in early high school, and seems immature.

Yes, that's what I understood those comments to mean.

Edited to add: If you are like me, Meatburger, then you easily miss the sarcasm because you immediately react to the negativity and because you don't want to deal with it, you don't take the time to put the Ne to work.

Sarcasm doesn't work over the internet i dont think

I will give you an alternative explanation. I am constantly councilling these guys with their problems but i dont need councilling myself. This creates a power differential that they feel they must try to stop. Hehe but maybe thats a good example of my Se role function. What annoys me by FAR the most out of all of this is that i would love to have INFj's as friends but they just constantly disrupt the the Fi. Ive got this dream of the INFj being this really nice and kind person who i can talk to and who cares about others. It just seems to me that the ones i know are too caught up in their own problems.

[Kim]

Are you sure they are not INFp??

[meatburger]

Are you sure they are not INFp??

Yeah im very very sure. One has been a friend for a long time and one i can just tell a mile away. I will be honest both of these guys have percieved that they had a hard life. One was picked on in school and one had to move schools heaps when he was young. I think i just attract these types because i haven't met many other ones. Right now both of these guys (the other one might be INFj) are spamming my facebook with stuff like "I cry myself to sleep etc". The sad thing is he probablly does cry himself to sleep

[Ritella]

Right now both of these guys (the other one might be INFj) are spamming my facebook with stuff like "I cry myself to sleep etc". The sad thing is he probablly does cry himself to sleep

speaking of making fun of people.... i'm sorry but that actually made me LOL.

also, i would say to stop showing the EIIs compassion. at this point, they know you care, they know you know about their problems, and they're just being repetitive, running circles in their heads and being OCD. you need to break the cycle somehow- i would try "yes"ing them, not giving any REAL feedback, forcing them to DO something, etc.

if you think about it, EIIs are "the empaths." they like empathy, but they don't really respond to it themselves. As an example, I LITERALLY stopped going to a therapist because she "felt sorry" for me and I was like "but that doesn't help me! you should be like 'okay, that sucks, but now DO SOMETHING."'
act like an LSE- do something interesting around them and get them to participate.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I had an EII youth worker at Starr one time do this to me. She would make fun of my voice and my laugh and stuff. It didn't really bother me though cause I know deep down she was a sweetheart or whatever. But overall like most Deltas she took me too seriously or something and I didn't like that, also like most black women she seemed to have certain issues regarding homosexuality, that I didn't agree with- but I think she just didn't want to see me hurt. I'm not really sure. I just felt weirded out by her taking me so seriously and like making sure I stayed out of trouble. I felt guilty/self-conscious around her, like I always had to 'do the right thing' or God would send a lightning bolt my way.

I'll just say that I enjoy the way other *Betas* treat me. I don't like to be taken just as a joke (Alphas) and I don't like to be treated too seriously. (Deltas) Gammas are good about this as well, and seem to know the right balance of serious/jokeyness to have with me.

[jewels]

Type aside, some people are just not fun to be around. That would annoy me too, especially because you know if you said that to them (whether you were being "sarcastic" or not) they would burst into tears...I had an INFj friend like that who would say really bitchy things about people, but she had really low self-esteem. I also wondered how she could be an INFj with all of that Fi and be so bitchy...

For instance, there was an old woman by the side of a parade who had a small foldable seat she was sitting on. It wasn't bothering anyone and the lady was very old. Her family was also there trying to take care of her and let her see the parade. The INFj didn't like that the woman got to have this foldable little chair thing. So she stood behind this probably 80 year old frail woman calling her a fat ass (not exactly so she could hear, but it was in earshot). And she kept telling me the woman should have just stayed home because she was going to die soon anyway. I mean, maybe some people would think that was funny? I didn't.

Another time she started screaming at a girl who she thought had tried to cut in line at a carnival. She was calling her a bitch and everything and yelling at her...and this INFj was over 30, so it wasn't like she was in HS.

INFj or not, some people are just, well, whatever you want to call that. I didn't stay friends w/ that one...

And anyone who calls you dumb has some issues and I wouldn't want to be around them.

When it happens its basically out of the blue. For example an INFj i know got a good grade at his assignment and i congratulated him on it and said wow high distinction and his reply was "no shit sherlock". This type of language totally perplexes me considering he should be happy. That wasn't an example of making fun though.

About 15 minutes ago i said on facebook that i had to pay money back to the government (about $1000). Another guy not sure his type went "hahahahahahaha". Then the INFj said "Laughing at him isn't mean..... it's human nature..... the one thing in the world more dangerous then the Hadron Collider is us letting our ego go unchecked. we have to damage each others every so often"

Quoted word for word. Dont get me wrong i wasn't offended i dont give a toss but i called him out and said that is rubbish. This same INFj in conversation will call me dumb etc for no apparent reason. I just dont like it because it disrupts my natural harmony. What makes me almost laugh to myself is that these same INFj's are constantly complaining that they feel like the odd one out and that no one likes them. I can see some social changes they could make that would be totally amazing for them but i dont tell them because of their douchebaggery.

[Smilingeyes]

This thread only applies to Ne subtypes.
And they don't really have strong Fi.

[meatburger]

And anyone who calls you dumb has some issues and I wouldn't want to be around them.

It doesn't really offend me at all. He is a social retard.

This thread only applies to Ne subtypes.
And they don't really have strong Fi.

I believe that. I would guess Ne subtype for them both even though i dont agree with subtypes much. I would love to meet an Fi subtype one.

[Smilingeyes]

Though I have to admit that the strong Fi types sometimes, occasionally do this too, but the only situation in which I've encountered it with them is if and when I boast. Even if the boasting is about something true and something of which I feel I'm rightfully proud. But I don't mind losing pride. It's all good.

[Cheesy]

These guys need some boundaries .. If you find it funny go along with it but if it gets to the point that you're sick of it just do/say something that disrupts them by showing them how lame and immature they are behaving. Sometimes people are so caught up in their behavioral patterns that they can't see what's underneath it.

I have an INFj-Fi friend and I have to say that it's rare to find people who are that genuine and reliable; she seems really fragile but it's really misleading, she's like a fortress of strength and optimism

[Minde]

So why do they do it? This is only guys i have observed mind you but ive seen it in three of them. They can be snarky and will call you ugly and stuff like that. It actually annoys me greatly because i personally never ever ever pay out anyone. Yet they are supposedly stronger in than i am? Plus, they cannot take it in return. If you give them shit back they really take it to heart? I think part of the problem is my own strong Fi means that it annoys me when someone does this where other types might just see it as funny.

I personally see it as a sign of insecurity and unhealthiness but perhaps there is some other explanation?

I don't know if this'll help, but I can describe how it works for me. If/when I make fun of someone, it's usually because I think they're either wrong or somehow getting ahead of themselves. That's my more "serious" mocking. Then there're times when I laugh at someone, but it's more of a with them sort of thing, more of a silly sharing thing and perhaps might not even be considered making fun.

An example of the first kind might be like what Ritella said to ArchonAlarion in the big flame war thing thread, where he gave statistics on how bad he thought the forum was, and she asked how much of that came from him. Ritella's comment was basically making fun of him for being wrong (in her perception) in a sort of sideways, cleverish way. I personally got a good chuckle out of it, largely because I also tend to think that ArchonAlarion is not only a little off in his socionics thinking but a little caustic, too. I found it funny because I shared her perspective; it was the same sort of thing that I might have thought to myself, though probably not actually said. If my opinion of ArchonAlarion had been different, then I might not have found it as funny. Other examples of that can happen IRL like when discussing (or listening to a discussion of) politics, where I might hear someone say something that I think is uninformed or just straight up silly and then make a sarcastic comment about it (usually just to myself).

Which brings up something else - When I'm mocking like that, it's usually to either try to stop the person who I'm laughing at (by bringing the absurdity to their attention) or just an expression of amusement to myself. I'm not as likely to try to make fun of someone to make the people around me laugh. I'd have to think really lowly of the person and be really needing people-attention to do something like that to any great degree. Not that I think it's wrong to make people laugh, just that it's not something I do under normal circumstances. Plus, like Sereno said, I don't like the idea of subjecting a person to group humiliation.

I really haven't done this type of mocking much at all on this forum. Not blatantly, anyway. One of the main times I can think of is way back when I lost patience with Dee. But even that was relatively minor (though I still feel twinges of guilt over it).

An example of the second kind, the softer and more friendly kind of mocking, might be like when my brother is talking with the family about his bungee jumping experience and I might chip in something about him being insane. A distinction is that in that case, my brother knows I love him even if he chooses different recreational activities than I and that I don't really think he's actually insane. But, again, I'm not sure if that's even really the same thing that you're talking about.

As for outrightly calling someone dumb or ugly - No. For one thing, I don't usually even think like that. For another... I'm not sure how to explain it, but no.

Hm, that's long, but I hope it's useful.

I don't like making fun of people, unless they are friends, and unless the other person finds it funny as well. I also don't like "mob" laughter towards somebody, where everyone laughs save for the person being made fun at. The only reason I would laugh a bit at someone else's "misfortune" is to help them not take it so seriously, which I think everyone naturally does, and try to find the humor in the bad. What you are describing is behavior that I would have done maybe back in early high school, and seems immature.

Yeah. Except, I've never been able to get the hang of laughing with someone at their misfortunes. Usually my normal reaction is, " *pat on shoulder*" and an awkward silence while I try to think of some way to help fix the situation.

Ive got this dream of the INFj being this really nice and kind person who i can talk to and who cares about others. It just seems to me that the ones i know are too caught up in their own problems.

Hm, I'm not really what you'd call a warm cuddly always-welcoming-to-all person. I care about everyone on a sort of general level, and I'll try to be polite and reasonably considerate to all. But I can't be drawn into everybody's hearts and lives - it's just way too draining. Also, sometimes I just don't seem to have enough warm fuzzies in me to "soften" things I do or say. For some people, anyway.

Sometimes people are so caught up in their behavioral patterns that they can't see what's underneath it.

Yeah, I can get that way, I think. Where I don't always see the effect I'm having on people. So it's good to get feedback.

[1981slater]

I say my American friend here can help you all solve your problems with

[Ritella]

An example of the first kind might be like what Ritella said to ArchonAlarion in the big flame war thing thread, where he gave statistics on how bad he thought the forum was, and she asked how much of that came from him. Ritella's comment was basically making fun of him for being wrong (in her perception) in a sort of sideways, cleverish way. I personally got a good chuckle out of it, largely because I also tend to think that ArchonAlarion is not only a little off in his socionics thinking but a little caustic, too. I found it funny because I shared her perspective; it was the same sort of thing that I might have thought to myself, though probably not actually said. If my opinion of ArchonAlarion had been different, then I might not have found it as funny.

[The Greeter]

First of all, I agree with a lot of what Ritella, Sereno and Minde has said except:

The only reason I would laugh a bit at someone else's "misfortune" is to help them not take it so seriously, which I think everyone naturally does, and try to find the humor in the bad.

I would respond the way Minde would if someone were to tell me their misfortunes, but I think you mean that you would try to cheer them up rather than laugh at their misfortunes to help them not take it so seriously.

Secondly, please stop blaming all the 'negative' characteristics of INFjs/EIIs to the Ne-subtype. How can you say they have no 'Fi' when because of their Fi they are INFj? In your experience it might be true that all Ne-INFjs behave in such an ill-mannered way, but for Ne-INFjs who don't behave this way, it just makes them feel unnecessarily bad.

Thirdly, meatburger, maybe this particular INFj just does not feel the need to be tactful around you, assuming he is INFj. Are you close friends? For me, I am usually quite tactful in what I say and do around strangers or those I am not particularly close with. But with close friends and family, I am not so much mainly because I feel comfortable around them and I know that, despite my lack of tact, what I say won't be misinterpreted as something malicious backed with bad intentions.

On the other hand, I find what your friend says a bit too extreme but we are different people. Maybe you can tell him what you think too.

[Ritella]

I never understood it myself. Most of the ones who really do this seem to be the Ne subtype. Why? I don't know. Being perfectionists, though, I think they are annoyed by what is less than par with their ideals. Some act like real snobs and have a kinda nasty underhanded humor which rivals that of many ILIs. I personally don't think it's funny and this aspect of some of them coupled with their two-faced criticism has brought conflict between us to where I wouldn't accept their BS and treated them as coldly as possible which usually resulted in them becoming suck-ups to me in order to get back on good terms with me which is also really ghey. And as you said, this seems to be more common in males. I see it as ILI sarcasm gone personal and gone bad. Does not impress me one bit.

I mostly blame this stuff on the sort EIIs who think they're on top and the other guy is not. While they often do have bragging rights, an EII with an ego is not pretty.

I think the bolded can apply to me. I don't really see it that way, but I can definitely see how I might be perceived as some sort of cynical, elitist snot with an underhanded sense of humor.

[meatburger]

Thirdly, meatburger, maybe this particular INFj just does not feel the need to be tactful around you, assuming he is INFj. Are you close friends? For me, I am usually quite tactful in what I say and do around strangers or those I am not particularly close with. But with close friends and family, I am not so much mainly because I feel comfortable around them and I know that, despite my lack of tact, what I say won't be misinterpreted as something malicious backed with bad intentions.

Both of these guys want to be closer friends with me and i want to be with both of them. They both really like me im sure of that. That is interesting that you feel like you dont need to be tactful to your friends. I dont actually take what they say as malicious that would be too strong, just highly annoying. I know that things can be better because maybe 35% of the time we connect and just have pure fun and they seem in a good mood and really nice. I dunno i just dont understand sarcasm im not a fan of it i suppose. It just appears pathetic to me.

I mostly blame this stuff on the sort EIIs who think they're on top and the other guy is not. While they often do have bragging rights, an EII with an ego is not pretty.

I think your post actually summed up perfectly how i see it aswell. I do agree it appears like they are coming across as elitist. In fact ive heard one of them describe how strong his ego is. Both of them also have alluded to how intelligent they are. The thing is i dont know why either of these people would feel elite. They dont appear to have anything to feel elite about right at the moment so to me its all an act.

Perhaps i should try to do something and see if i can help by telling them. Before i said something i would want to be sure that them acting like that doesn't attract their dual or something. Its what friends are for isn't it? And i would have another good friend

[meatburger]

Im suprised no one has said anything about the thread title yet.

"Fi dominant jailed for beating up children at the playground and stealing their candy". It seems a bit unreal doesn't it. Actually hmm ISFj's do that kind of thing all the time lol

[The Greeter]

Both of these guys want to be closer friends with me and i want to be with both of them. They both really like me im sure of that. That is interesting that you feel like you dont need to be tactful to your friends. I dont actually take what they say as malicious that would be too strong, just highly annoying. I know that things can be better because maybe 35% of the time we connect and just have pure fun and they seem in a good mood and really nice. I dunno i just dont understand sarcasm im not a fan of it i suppose. It just appears pathetic to me.

Well, like I said before, I don't speak in the manner your friends do. By less tactful, I mean, I don't 'censor' myself as much --this does not mean I am more profane. It's the difference between saying 'today is a bad day' and 'today sucks.'

I think your post actually summed up perfectly how i see it aswell. I do agree it appears like they are coming across as elitist. In fact ive heard one of them describe how strong his ego is. Both of them also have alluded to how intelligent they are. The thing is i dont know why either of these people would feel elite. They dont appear to have anything to feel elite about right at the moment so to me its all an act.

Then is this really type dependent? The only thing I see as being related to type is what they feel elite about rather than their general crappy attitude.

Perhaps i should try to do something and see if i can help by telling them. Before i said something i would want to be sure that them acting like that doesn't attract their dual or something. Its what friends are for isn't it? And i would have another good friend

[Ritella]

I think the bolded can apply to me. I don't really see it that way, but I can definitely see how I might be perceived as some sort of cynical, elitist snot with an underhanded sense of humor.

this where YOU"RE SUPPOSED TO SAY "you're not at all like that."
Fuck. I'm doing it again.

[meatburger]

Then is this really type dependent? The only thing I see as being related to type is what they feel elite about rather than their general crappy attitude.

Its just that ive seen it manifest in exactly the same way in a number of INFj's so i suppose thats what makes me feel that its a little type dependent. Of course douchebaggery is not an indicator of type and theres plenty of great INFj's around who dont do this im certian.

this where YOU"RE SUPPOSED TO SAY "you're not at all like that."
Fuck. I'm doing it again.

I didn't want to make INFj sad thats like making baby jesus cry. Dont be sad Ritello you are not like that at all. :redface:. Here are some flowers for you:

[Smilingeyes]

Secondly, please stop blaming all the 'negative' characteristics of INFjs/EIIs to the Ne-subtype. How can you say they have no 'Fi' when because of their Fi they are INFj? In your experience it might be true that all Ne-INFjs behave in such an ill-mannered way, but for Ne-INFjs who don't behave this way, it just makes them feel unnecessarily bad.

It is not an objectively negative characteristic. There are plenty of people who think what is described in this thread is fun, and who are motivated by this kind of input to try even more and become better persons in regard of the relationship.

Also, INFj-Fi have strong Fi. INFj-Ne when compared to them have weaker Fi, at most a decent amount of it, though still stronger than ISTjs of course. But it's model A foolery to think that every person that socionics calls INFj or ISFj is actually particularly strong in Fi. This wrong idea got from model A has destroyed the image of Fi that many forum participants have of the function. THey observe someone like Diana and start thinking that, oh, gee, there's a Fi dominant. Despite that that person acts completely Se and doesn't have a smidgen of Fi that must be what Fi is like. To think that creative subtypes of INFjs and ISFjs have strong Fi is harmful and destructive. This forum has plenty of people claiming to have Fi who don't have enough of it to fill a thimble.

Also, they are making their own choice of acting like this and people need to hear honest answers about how others react to their behaviour, that is what this forum is about. If someone doesn't like the input they get for their behaviour, they might want to get different company, or change their behaviour.

[meatburger]

It is not an objectively negative characteristic. There are plenty of people who think what is described in this thread is fun, and who are motivated by this kind of input to try even more and become better persons in regard of the relationship.

I have wondered about this and can agree some people wouldn't mind. Ive seen ISTp's laugh and enjoy this type of thing, although ive also seen these INFj's have heated arguments with ISTp's lol.

My personal viewpoint is that this behaviour is in general more negative than positive. I think they only get minimum benefit from it but quite a few negatives. This is backed up in my opinion by their own expression of constantly feeling like no one likes them.

[Smilingeyes]

This is slightly off-topic but I don't want to actually raise too much attention to this message by starting a separate thread for it.

Ij-Fi does indeed also have it's own "bad points". I know of a number of strong Fi people who live in long-term relationships which they feel they "were destined" to have but they don't feel fulfilled in them, they aren't happy with them. Nevertheless they keep stringing their partners on for years. An ESFj/ENFJ partner for example can consistently woo their "cold-hearted" lifemate and vow their romantic feelings and do everything they can to make these people feel happy and loved, but it is all for naught. They remain in the relationship hoping for better, enjoying the good moments, but continuously hoping something would occur to destroy the bad situation. In this context it's common enough for them to keep checking other potential mates out, asking them for dinners or dancing, engage in social gatherings and look for situation in which they might find a better mate. Yet they resist any violent perturbation of the status quo, for this reminds them of Se. So actually changing their situation for the better is nigh impossible. Anyway, being in the receiving end of actual Fi treatment doesn't therefore mean anything. A Fi Ij is likely to have a delicate social network around them and their potential mate is just one part of it and only as good as they are for the whole. They will always have to share their mate with a number of old friends, ex-lovers, family members and just about anyone that happens to come by. Many people have difficulties with this.

I personally have been in many situations in which an INFj flirts with me even quite intimately even for years, and just some accident suddenly brings to my attention the fact that they have been unhappily married or living with some bozo the whole time. I've also had a couple of situations in which an INFj has pretty clearly implied their interest to me and been quite explicit in their wish to have an intimate relationship with me and yet they may the very next day start another relationship with someone else.

Another sort of problem-behaviour is what society-oriented Fi-types do. It's reasonably common to find Ij-Fi people in religious communities. Given that this community treats them well, they adapt to the community. The same is true for a political party or an extended family or any society, but this seems to be particularly common for religious societies. Anyway, being that they are completely happy with the community due to the social relationships the community creates, they spread their happiness to others, and while doing that, they proselytize. I've seen a couple of situations in which this has been bad enough to cause a public disturbance.

If a person behaves consistently nicely towards the Ij-Fi, they have serious difficulty accepting the idea that this person might behave very harmfully towards others. They end up occasionally enabling some very nasty things.

ISFj-Se and INFj-Ne aren't liable to persist in these habits that many people are very much irritated by.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[The Greeter]

It is not an objectively negative characteristic. There are plenty of people who think what is described in this thread is fun, and who are motivated by this kind of input to try even more and become better persons in regard of the relationship.

Well, you're right that it is not objectively negative. Just wondering, then how does Fi manifest in INFj-Ne? Or an INFj-split? --if you acknowledge the existence of this subtype. And how does it fit in with the Delta quadra?

Also, INFj-Fi have strong Fi. INFj-Ne when compared to them have weaker Fi, at most a decent amount of it, though still stronger than ISTjs of course. But it's model A foolery to think that every person that socionics calls INFj or ISFj is actually particularly strong in Fi. This wrong idea got from model A has destroyed the image of Fi that many forum participants have of the function. THey observe someone like Diana and start thinking that, oh, gee, there's a Fi dominant. Despite that that person acts completely Se and doesn't have a smidgen of Fi that must be what Fi is like. To think that creative subtypes of INFjs and ISFjs have strong Fi is harmful and destructive. This forum has plenty of people claiming to have Fi who don't have enough of it to fill a thimble.

I think I know what you are saying. Do you mean that since Diana uses Fi infused with Se (the output) that some forum members have the impression that all forms Fi must be expressed this way?

Also, they are making their own choice of acting like this and people need to hear honest answers about how others react to their behaviour, that is what this forum is about. If someone doesn't like the input they get for their behaviour, they might want to get different company, or change their behaviour.

Yes, you're right but I was addressing what seems to be the tendency to claim such disagreeable behaviour on INFj-Ne and then the sort of INFj-Ne bashing in general. I'm being too sensitive, I'll drop the issue.

[Minde]

Hm, this thread makes me a little upset in some ways, especially things said in posts like Smilingeyes' last one and some of what Meatburger and Jewels and BnD have described.

On the other hand, it's helpful to have a sort of list of things or directions in which I could go that I don't want but could end up there anyway even just in small tendencies. That way I have a better chance of catching myself before I hurt someone or do (or let happen) something wrong.

[Smilingeyes]

Well, you're right that it is not objectively negative. Just wondering, then how does Fi manifest in INFj-Ne? Or an INFj-split? --if you acknowledge the existence of this subtype. And how does it fit in with the Delta quadra?

I don't understand the question. Fi manifests in them the same way it does in INFj-Fis. They just don't have as much of it. Accepting individual variation.

I think I know what you are saying. Do you mean that since Diana uses Fi infused with Se (the output) that some forum members have the impression that all forms Fi must be expressed this way?

No, I mean that Diana has a habit of loudly proclaiming herself as Fi-dominant while the only thing she ever shows is Se. I don't dispute her claim of being ISFj, but the Se dominance is so high and the presence of Ti is also apparent so that anyone who takes her as a model of what Fi looks like, including herself, will likely end up thinking very silly things indeed.

Yes, you're right but I was addressing what seems to be the tendency to claim such disagreeable behaviour on INFj-Ne and then the sort of INFj-Ne bashing in general. I'm being too sensitive, I'll drop the issue.

I can only answer for myself on this. I like Fi. I don't like Se. I don't like Ne. I find Ti irrelevant.

Also, people bash ISFjs too.

...

@Minde
Sorry about the upset, for my part.
But you are of course right, one does hear warnings every now and then and it's often good to listen.

[Minde]

Yep.

Sorry about the upset, for my part.

I might forgive you.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[calenwen]

Another sort of problem-behaviour is what society-oriented Fi-types do. It's reasonably common to find Ij-Fi people in religious communities. Given that this community treats them well, they adapt to the community. The same is true for a political party or an extended family or any society, but this seems to be particularly common for religious societies. Anyway, being that they are completely happy with the community due to the social relationships the community creates, they spread their happiness to others, and while doing that, they proselytize. I've seen a couple of situations in which this has been bad enough to cause a public disturbance.

If a person behaves consistently nicely towards the Ij-Fi, they have serious difficulty accepting the idea that this person might behave very harmfully towards others. They end up occasionally enabling some very nasty things.

ISFj-Se and INFj-Ne aren't liable to persist in these habits that many people are very much irritated by.

What do you mean by society oriented? As opposed to what? This all sounds very foreign and does not fit into any experiences I have had with these types.

[Smilingeyes]

That's. . . weird. I never expected anyone to say that. What do you think Fi is? What does it look like to you?

Fi is the understanding, value and ability to handle relationships. You seem to have very little.