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Thread: Leaving Earth

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    Default Leaving Earth...

    Let's imagine that there is a space mission of colonizing a recently discovered planet.
    Some influential person decides to use socionics to screen out and organize the people on board. The mission is big, population on board is to be around 1000 people, so he has to take into account the needs of a small society.

    How would a short description of the type and its competences would sound like?
    One larger paragraph that would summarize what that specific type is all about and a short description of its potential competences so that he can screen only the persons already manifesting some of those competencies.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    This is a pretty dick to the ceiling awesome idea.

    However, it will take awhile and there will be much dissension amongst the smallfolk.

    Maybe ill try later
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

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    Come on people, help me out!
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Well, we'd definitely want a contingent of at least a hundred LSEs... probably in their own section with EIIs to keep them company (must always keep no more than a 2:1 ratio between duals), but I'd say they're the best workers of the Socion. That's the ship maintenance crew.

    We need at least ten of every type, because who knows what will come up. But for the mundane task of getting a ship from here to there, we want mostly STs... that means 2:1 STs to NFs. I don't see why the NTs and SFs would be particularly useful during the trip... perhaps after arrival, when there are new problems to deal with. NFs will gain in importance during that time as well, since the strange stuff will almost certainly have ethical implications.

    OK, laid out more cleanly....

    Beta: top tier. They're the government. There need to be clear laws in place as to what the other quadras' places are, and what the Betas can and can't do to those quadras. I trust the LSIs will see to it that such laws are honored.

    Delta: Maintenance force (STs) and also the quadra most independent of Beta rule. Their duties will be laid out in terms of "make sure all this stuff keeps working," with it left up to them to determine honestly what that means. All types will be balanced precisely by their dual types, because otherwise I fear we'll have a "breakdown."

    Alpha: Track the progress of the ship and investigate anything new that turns up. After landing, they will do most of the exploring.

    Gamma: Resource management comes to mind. Gamma controls the distribution of food, tools, Delta workers, etc.

    Somewhere in the course of this I decided that every type gets an equal share in the journey. Ah well, so be it.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    This is a pretty dick to the ceiling awesome idea.
    This was the most interesting thing to imagine. I wasn't prepared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Somewhere in the course of this I decided that every type gets an equal share in the journey. Ah well, so be it.
    I was thinking along the same lines too.

    However, how about short, condensed descriptions that could be used to explain the type and its role?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    I was thinking along the same lines too.

    However, how about short, condensed descriptions that could be used to explain the type and its role?
    ILE: Investigate any poorly-understood occurrences. As the chief explorers, the ILEs come into their own at the landing.
    SEI:
    ESE:
    LII: Watch for flaws in the structure of society that may need to be reported to Beta. Have the power to change the law if need be. This requires a unanimous vote that the law needs to be changed, and a majority vote as to what that change should be.

    EIE:
    LSI: Uphold the structure of society set in place from the journey's beginning.
    SLE: Govern all Merry types in cases where no law applies.
    IEI:

    SEE: Govern all Serious types where no other type's authority applies.
    ILI:
    LIE: Manage the distribution of resources. LIEs have the authority to move food, water, building materials, workers, etc. from place to place, and the responsibility to keep everyone on board the ship able to do their jobs. LIEs may also join the workforce, although the LIE squads should remain separate from the LSE squads.
    ESI: Safeguard against Gamma corruption. ESIs have the authority to take away the power of other Gammas. When an ESI is removed from power, s/he can't remove others from power, but can still vote that they be reinstated (a majority vote reinstates someone who has been removed from power; all ESIs must have an opportunity to vote, and past votes on an issue carry over if not changed).

    LSE: Main workforce and Delta management. Self-organized LSE groups will be moved from task to task by LIEs, but have the freedom to perform the tasks as they see fit.
    EII: Serve with the LSE workforce. EIIs are expected to comment on the LSEs' actions, but not have authority over them.
    IEE: Serve with the SLI workforce. IEEs are free to move from task to task, and have the right to move SLIs around as well, with the SLI's consent.
    SLI: Maintain specific parts of the ship. SLIs are not available for LIEs to move around unless an IEE moves them into an LSE workforce.

    I seem to have had some difficulty determining the place of the types and Gamma Irrationals.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I seem to have had some difficulty determining the place of the types
    Telling stories? Keeping the myth of the promised land alive?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    SEI:
    ESE:

    EIE: Uphold the vision with which the journey was begun (telling stories, etc.).
    IEI: Maintain the vision with which the journey was begun, and remind the SLEs how they can govern in keeping with this vision.

    ILI: Keep the histories, including the records of the homeworld. Aid the other Gammas in determining how the practical problems of the society can best be managed.

    (Difference between EIE an IEI: the EIEs keep the vision alive across the ship. The IEIs think about the vision more deeply, and relay their thoughts only to the other Betas, especially the SLEs.)

    Still don't have anything for Alpha SF...



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Alphas keep everyone entertained and figure out the new stuff that we encounter on the way.
    Betas steer the course and basically run shit, fight anyone who fucks with us, keep people's morale up.
    Gammas do things like resource management, keeping track of the mission's records, and disciplinary action.
    Deltas do most of the peon work.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Deltas do most of the peon work.
    I think that every type can provide some kind of leadership in some field.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    I never understood why people think that Deltas, overall, are just fine doing "peon work," so to speak. The Delta NFs I know, including myself, really don't like that sort of work, and I especially dislike doing meaningless work for someone else. I can see why people would have this view of Delta STs, I see that clearly, but I have to be doing a lot more creative/leadership/interpersonal work to feel at all good about what I'm doing.
    Last edited by Mattie; 04-20-2009 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    I think that every type can provide some kind of leadership in some field.
    Deltas do the work, and decide how such work is to be done. No one else gets to interfere.

    Hmm... actually, Deltas have leadership in morality. They have a very real value in policy-making; both the LIIs and the ESIs, as I described above, would benefit from their input.

    It's the IJs in each quadra that keep that quadra under control, except in Delta - oddly, the EIIs have no power that is not given to them by the LSEs. Similarly, the LIIs' power isn't local government, but a seldom-used blanket ruling over the ship. Perhaps the Judicial quadras don't need official safeguard types... but, the EIIs should have more of a leadership role.

    EII: <uh... somehow I'm unwilling to subject any non-Delta to the fearsome EII.>



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    I think that every type can provide some kind of leadership in some field.
    Yeah, they can lead the other peons in doing peon work.

    AHAHHAHAHAHAHHA 3L33TIZUM

    No but seriously, I think LSEs work best when they can delegate and direct people easily; an ideal example would be something like a construction worksite or an office building.

    On the other hand, you have people like LSIs and SLEs who are good at setting rules, establishing a chain of command, and enforcing follow-through, which is the kind of thing you would need, say, in the military, or on a starship.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I never understood why people think that Deltas, overall, are just fine doing "peon work," so to speak. The Delta NFs I know, including myself, really don't like that sort of work, and I especially dislike doing meaningless work for someone else. I can see why people would have this view of Delta STs, I see that clearly, but I have to be doing a lot more creative/leadership/interpersonal work to feel at all good about what I'm doing.
    And this is exactly the kind of reason that you find a lot of IEEs and EIIs heading up humanitarian efforts or cultural integration projects. My dad is an EII and a minister, and he works overseas with the church to do things like help with the reconciliation effort between Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda. Delta NFs are averse to Se and Ti, so they have a hard time being "part of the system," and usually like finding work that either allows them to be their own boss, work in some kind of freelance position, or at least a field in which they are sort of allowed "creative reign" over whatever it is they're doing in immediate terms; teaching, ministry, and medical professions are some good examples of these, IMO.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  16. #16
    Creepy-male

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    I anticipate SEIs and IEEs serving mental health and medical needs.

    You sort of neglected thos eroles, Brill

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    EIEs are harsh and intolerant? Man, have you been hanging around the wrong kind...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    I think all types matter. Everybody has something to offer. But, in my eyes, producing subtypes achieve more in life than accepting subtypes (for instance, ENTp Ti > ENTp Ne). So I'd fill the ship with producing subtypes...and beer
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I don't plan on being a failed artist, thank you very much...in fact I already consider myself a somewhat accomplished one.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  20. #20
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I would say that my definition of what it means to be a "failure" when it comes to art is obviously vastly different from yours. I have had enough people respond positively, even overwhelmingly so at times, to my work that I am plenty confident about my own abilities, and I don't have unrealistic expectations about necessarily making a living from my writing, so really there's nothing to prepare for.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    As a whole this crew will be intelligent, highly trained and professional, this will either allow for more smooth integration or more ego-tripping, I don't know which is worse. Also as resource distribution on a ship such as this is going to be more communal and non-market based, some skills will be redirected elsewhere.
    I believe that intelligence is often misunderstood. I agree with Ken Robinson, intelligence is as diverse and unique as your fingerprint. I also view intelligence as applied passion, or a manifestation of inner power. This can only become visible through fidelity to ones inner calling because fidelity leads to practice, practice leads to competence.

    Within the socion there are variants of types that exhibit the passion (variants that truly live) and variants that are satisfied on meager existence.

    I was thinking that the manifestation of this living, of this passion/fidelity could be understood through actual type descriptions and through something like... type competence probability.

    Ok... back to the story... Essential to the mission plan is the concept of "joy maximization"... this is planned to be done via a series of periodic social manifestations that include: music, dance and storytelling. The plan is to use subconscious group adaptations like unified rhythm to foster the perception of connectivity.

    Here is some research for the ones the are curious:
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Yay fluid mechanics Serious Name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Deltas do most of the peon work.
    Fuck that. I actually want intellectually involved job.

    I'd be bored to tears working with my hands all day :/
    Meh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Name View Post
    Fuck that. I actually want intellectually involved job.

    I'd be bored to tears working with my hands all day :/
    What would you like to do? How do you think you can best serve the mission? What would be the thing that you could do in the service of others that would bring you most joy?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Yay fluid mechanics Serious Name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    What would you like to do? How do you think you can best serve the mission? What would be the thing that you could do in the service of others that would bring you most joy?
    Well, honestly during the trip I don't see myself being of much use. I like to gain an understanding of new information, being one of the people to say "it works this way", so if anything new comes up during the trip I would want to look into it and explain it. Ideally whatever I research would have practical applications later on, and instead stopping at just figuring new information out I would move on to putting it to real-world use. Maybe after landing the colony would run across a ton of new things, and I'd have a mindgasm thinking of ways to make use of it.

    I'd have no problem using what I already know to create a stable living environment, or whatever else needs to be done. Say there isn't enough oxygen present in the atmosphere to support human life (or whatever else we brought with us). I'd be happy to use existing knowledge to solve the issue, it makes sense to use what we already know instead of looking for something new, since you kind of need oxygen NOW to survive. Huge plus if there is some new material is found later that you can either extract oxygen from or use as a mechanism of creating some.

    This could probably explain why I picked engineering as a major. I could do math or science, but the whole time I'd be either writing proofs (AAAAAARGH! HATE!) or doing overly abstract research without ever making something at least semi-tangible out of what I learn. I'm good at these things, but making something out of it is sort of a validation of what I know. Its like "See, its not all just numerically sound bullshit. It WORKS!"
    Meh.

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    In my opinion, each quadra will design a society that is "complete" and does not require the aid of other quadra's.

    Meaning that there are certain tasks to accomplish in such a mission, but the tasks, the way they are performed, and who undertakes them, will be determined based on quadra.

    So no matter what you do, if you mix quadras there will be trouble. I think that quadra's are self-sufficient and do not require the others.

    So you might say, "Well then certain things would not get done!" and I'd say, "But to that specific quadra those things dont need to happen." A quadra will shape ends and means based on what they understand and value.


    A better (imo) and possibly more interesting discussion would be: "How would a colonization task force from each quadra look/act like"


    Then you could delve into what would happen if you crossed quadra's.

    I'm gonna go on a walk and think about this now, because I'm excited.

    Things to ponder:

    • Terraforming or no? and why?
    • Degree of hierarchy and political/organizational structure
    • Purpose of mission
    • Type of spacecraft/s (yes that could reflect quadra values)
    • How they funded or brought about this mission
    • What do they do for entertainment?
    • How will they go about naming regions and objects on the planet?
    • What will happen if they encounter another sapient race?
    • How do they colonists feel about such things as bioengineering, transhumanism, androids, virtual reality, cloning, etc?
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Delta: Maintenance force (STs) and also the quadra most independent of Beta rule. Their duties will be laid out in terms of "make sure all this stuff keeps working," with it left up to them to determine honestly what that means. All types will be balanced precisely by their dual types, because otherwise I fear we'll have a "breakdown."
    Yeah! at least, LSEs would be good at this. I'm not sure about the feelers...they may get in our way...unless they were teamed up with their duals, who instructed them on correct procedure. Ant the judgers and percievers should work on different sections most of the time. That would avoid conflicting plans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    A better (imo) and possibly more interesting discussion would be: "How would a colonization task force from each quadra look/act like"
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...s-quadras.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    A single quadra group is not the best team possible in design or execution and that's why we have more then 4 types in the world.
    I agree. Also, conflict on small or large scale between types from different quadra... might be very important for the psychological development... kinda like illnesses of childhood.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    true. I guess I was thinking of an ideal situation where it would only be types from a single quadra, with no chance of extra-quadra offspring.


    Also, Director Abbie, that governent thread is somewhat BS.

    Its not about which government you choose, but why you chose it, how you'd bring it about, and how you justify it.

    Plus, when global anarchism does take root every quadra will still get along quite fine.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Yeah! at least, LSEs would be good at this. I'm not sure about the feelers...they may get in our way...unless they were teamed up with their duals, who instructed them on correct procedure. Ant the judgers and percievers should work on different sections most of the time. That would avoid conflicting plans.
    If the facility manager at my work got into socionics, this sounds exactly like what he would say too.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    Ok... back to the story... Essential to the mission plan is the concept of "joy maximization"... this is planned to be done via a series of periodic social manifestations that include: music, dance and storytelling. The plan is to use subconscious group adaptations like unified rhythm to foster the perception of connectivity.
    That's... needed?

    This belongs to Alpha SF. And with that, my list is complete (though there might still be a problem with the Deltas being the peons).

    ESE: Spreading joy throughout the ship. The ESEs will organize social events such as music, dance and storytelling to keep everyone on the ship in high spirits.
    SEI: The SEIs work to keep the ship cheerful by seeking out areas of melancholy or anger and clearing the air. They also spread joy, but not in the organized manner of the ESEs.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    That's... needed?
    "Joy is the most infallible sign of the presence of God." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

    Yeah! That's needed!
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    I dug up some relevant info from Rick's posts...
    So here it is:

    The "calling" of the leading function:

    -- controlling material assets and resources
    -- directing development and leveraging intellectual potential
    -- engaging in social and entertainment networks
    -- managing and increasing production output
    -- guiding imaginative creative and spiritual endeavors
    -- overseeing systems of knowledge and governance
    -- providing well-being and balance
    -- educating and enculturating

    Type Messages or the manifestation of answering the "calling":

    ILE - Searching for the unknown and spreading knowledge.
    SEI - Deriving enjoyment from all your activities and interactions.
    ESE - Turning life into an enjoyable, beautiful experience.
    LII - Structuring reality and creating correct systems of thought.
    EIE - Riveting attention and energy to meaningful causes.
    LSI - Establishing and overseeing correct structures and systems.
    SLE - Challenging the current order and expanding influence.
    IEI - Creating meaning in the events of life around you.
    SEE - Acquiring social territory and influencing people.
    ILI - Recognizing underlying processes and deriving benefit from them.
    LIE - Achieving beneficial efficiency in all areas of life.
    ESI - Recognizing and balancing people's needs and expectations.
    LSE - Managing worthwhile, productive, and wholesome activities.
    EII - Being exemplary and instilling ideal values.
    IEE - Expanding your horizons and helping people develop.
    SLI - Balanced, harmonious living and temperance.


    Do you see better descriptions for one type or the other?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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