Te PoLR (Clarification, please)

[Lotus]

I'm bringing this up because of page 2 in this thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post508600

Now I'd like to clear this up. I title-searched “PoLR” and these were all of the Te PoLR-related threads that came up:

• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...polr-like.html
• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-te-polr.html
• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...y-te-polr.html
• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...g-te-polr.html
• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...k-te-polr.html
• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...5-te-polr.html
• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...olr-thing.html
• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...9-te-polr.html

I've hardly skimmed them, so I may have missed something, but could I get some XEIs to describe what Te PoLR is for them? The only people who want to explain what it is are supposed Te-valuers (and naturally this sort of bias doesn't help). It's difficult for me to believe that it is a simple case of impracticality and dreaminess. Honestly, what do you XEIs think of it?



BTW, 17.6% of “PoLR” threads were started by Joy and this is hilarious for some reason of which I cannot explain. Jesus Christ, that is twenty-two “PoLR” threads from one person. lol.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Lotus]

What exactly does, "There is no why" mean to you Allie? And why is that important?

I was answering this is my head and stopped midway because it reminded me of something Philip Petit said.

I recall him saying that the most commonly asked question afterwards was “why did you do it?” In response to these questions he laughs, saying, “There is no why.”

How would you interpret that?

I think most people ask that question under the assumption that he's seeking something along the lines of status, fame, glory, or identity. However, “there is no why” in that he did this out of obligation to himself, rather than as an attempt to achieve social or historical acknowledgment. Petit saw the towers and decided that he had a duty to himself to walk across them. I can only assume that it was unwavering passion that motivated this man, not a “why.”

Though I don't think this is what you meant. Heh. So here is attempt no. Ⅱ:

What exactly does, "There is no why" mean to you Allie?

“There is no why” because things just are? There exist both concrete and abstract processes—constant, self-sustaining, and capable of repetition regardless of why they exist, whether they should or shouldn't exist, or any other question that doesn't change what is actually happening. There is no why, just a how—and how is where the use of knowledge comes in.

And why is that important?

Because what you and others observe is what you can use and depend on. Why doesn't change anything about what is happening. Understanding why I'm here, for instance, doesn't change the fact that I am, and it won't add or detract anything from the concrete reality of it. Say Ⅿⅽnew tells me I'm here because I am a Sagittarius and I am meant to cause destruction or something stupid like that. This is an explanation that isn't attached to anything concrete—you could make up anything to fill in the slot, and it won't matter. It shouldn't change your perception of what is happening, because it isn't a process—it isn't real, it won't cause or affect, and it's easily replaceable and therefore worthless.

Is that what you're asking?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Lotus]

No, I was asking specifically in reference to Philippe Petit, you had it right the first time. That's something I never was fully satisifed with the explanation.

It's sort of like when someone climbed Mt. Everest, and people asked him why. "Because it was there" he responded. I can appreciate that response, he did it because he could and wanted to. But, "there is no why" strikes me as different some way, and I can peg it down. It bothers me.

I don't know what exactly he meant by it, but imo it was probably just a shrug to get the media off his back. Everyone coming up and asking me post-walk/climb/etc. “Why did you do it??” would overwhelm and annoy me. “There is no why” is a way to end interrogation—because what the hell could you ask someone after that? Either that, or the answer was obvious and it would've been tiresome to explain: he wanted to do it, he knew he was capable of doing it, therefore he did do it. It wasn't complicated, and yet these people shove questions into his face for a quote to fling across headlines.

Even just, "I wanted to" is a reason. But no reason at all? You spend so much time and effort planning something without any reason? Who does that?

I think you're taking him too literally. But I'm certainly not claiming to know what he actually meant, so who knows?

Doing something with no purpose in mind, I think it does say something about the difference between Te valuing, and non Te valuing. It's like what unefille said in this thread: socionics.ws - View topic - Ni PoLR? (and weak Te)

I didn't really see anything significant in that post. Are you referring to this part:

-- the underlying point being always 'this is not the best plan - let me point out its deficiencies so you can plan better', which assumes that I WANT the best/more effective/efficient plan for my life. That's not my goal/value at all.

I don't really understand what she means by that, tbh.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Lotus]

Yes, that's what I was referring to, and also:

In contrast to what spoon-san wrote, about wanting to be a part of a symphony rather than the church orchestra.

I know that when I'm making decisions about what to do, I almost always take into account whether it's the best way to go about it. For instance, I decided on a college based on the fact that it was good enough to meet my goals, and gave me a full scholarship, more than any other reason.

Alright, but who wouldn't do that? It would be ignorant not to take those factors into account when making decisions, IMO.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Lotus]

apparently, unefille doesn't. She says she doesn't care what the best or most effective way to get someplace is.

Is that supposed to be the line between Te valuing vs. devaluing? If so, then I'm certainly not Te PoLR. But either way, that seems far too vague to me.

[unefille]

Even just, "I wanted to" is a reason. But no reason at all? You spend so much time and effort planning something without any reason? Who does that?

Doing something with no purpose in mind, I think it does say something about the difference between Te valuing, and non Te valuing. It's like what unefille said in this thread: socionics.ws - View topic - Ni PoLR? (and weak Te)

Well, to be fair to myself (heh), I never said that I did things with no purpose in mind:

Although it's always a balancing scale, its a matter of 'the state of the world faciliates my actions, which are determined by my personal desires' more than 'the state of the world determines the actions which I pursue in order to facilitate my personal desires.'

On my way to my ultimate goal, I will 'stray' and do things because I want to, where they serve no ostensible purpose. I will take extra courses in majors that have nothing to do with mine, because I feel like it etc. It goes beyond 'nurturing' a few hobbies on the side -- I will take the winding road rather than the straight one if I want to. In this instance, I want to do an LLM overseas after I graduate. I cant be certain that this will serve me well (though it should, I suppose), because I only have a vague idea of the options that my future holds, but even if the LLM gives no advantage over not undertaking an LLM, it doesn't alter my decision-making calculus very much at all -- because practical benefit is like garnishing, whilst what I want, for no reason other than I want it, is really the main dish.

Anyway, I'm not Te-PoLR so...

Ok, another example of what I meant in the other thread. Education is Australia is very vocation directed -- much more so than the liberal arts degrees of the US. I viscerally dislike our undergraduate system. A lot of people think it's not vocational enough. That doesn't mean, that unlike them, I don't have a vocation in mind -- I totally always have -- but rather that I hate seeing an undergraduate education as a route to something, rather than something to be experience for itself, and I don't mind taking this detour on the way to the eventual goal.

ETA: I can't seem to talk without metaphors, sorry -- but I just wanted to add that, even taking detours, I do have an idea of where I eventually end up. I just would never take the straight and direct path -- it's not 'in me' to value the straighter, more direct route as the better route for me.

[marooned]

Doing things in an efficient way, is actually more Si related, as in effort involved, making things run smoothly, etc. But, doing things as to get the best result, is Te related.

...

An example of Te+Si, would be my dad. When he's working, he gets all his materials together, and sets things up so that he can work smoothly, without having to go off and get something else. Things flow. He takes less effort and gets more done. He doesn't have to search for tools, everything is where it should be.

I hate Socionics. If I was working on something that needed materials, I would want everything in one spot as well, like on a table... so I don't have to constantly get up and get more things... In my case this enables me to conduct the work on "auto-pilot" as much as possible. It would also be about efficiency though, getting it done in the fewest steps. The exception would be if I was actually interested in doing it and didn't have to do it for someone else as in I decided to do it because I want to... Then I don't think I would care about efficiency anymore... though I still wouldn't want to have to make multiple trips of getting this thing, that thing, and oh, that other thing over there.

---

Anyway, I thought the point in the FLW thread about not valuing Te was that the reason behind his creations was an ideal infused with his vision of nature with a capital n. This doesn't mean he wouldn't ever consider effective living in terms of houses he built, just that it wasn't the primary focus (and it obviously wasn't I can see just by looking at pictures of his creations). "Use" is not the point, use has no meaning... it's all about what it means, creating something that means something... (I'm not really sure how it could be unliveable though... I think I just adapt myself to the space I live in... who cares how it's arranged.)

[Creepy-Diana]

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[marooned]

Sorry, that was completely muddy, wasn't it? Gargh. I didn't mean that all TeSi is like that, or that it's exclusively TeSi, nor the other exclusively TeNi. The whole getting everything organized was actually a learned trait my dad picked up, and was only meant to illustrate the concept in a way that made sense, not that the behaviors themselves are specific to any type at all.

It's extremely hard to explain concepts in the terms of external behaviors when the behaviors themselves are not type-related. But trying to explain it without some sort of example like that doesn't communicate well either. I need a better way. . . *searches brain*

I understand.

[Khola aka Bee]

When someone hits my PoLR, it tends to feel as if they are being too cold, too harsh. Sometimes it can be done jokingly, obviously mindful of not causing offense, and I think that works for me, the Ti aspect of T.

Usually when I get hit with Te, it goes along the lines of someone being very blunt, though correct logically, and hurting someone's feelings. This is especially true if they do this to others I am close to, rather than myself, and particularly in a social setting. Basically if someone blurts out something that is obviously true, but hurts the feelings of someone close from an ethical standpoint, I get annoyed, defensive of that other person and protective of the group, as it usually also causes general discomfort.

I find myself not wanting to cause conflict, but also finding the need to take a stand in order to restore a happy feeling withing the group, and to reassure the person at the brunt of those comments of his/her security within the group. So generally I feel uncomfortable at being forced to take verbal action, to stand out against this injustice, and that discomfort then goes on to cause me personal hurt and anger.

That's probably the best way to describe it? I hope that helps.

[Jimbean]

When someone hits my PoLR, it tends to feel as if they are being too cold, too harsh. Sometimes it can be done jokingly, obviously mindful of not causing offense, and I think that works for me, the Ti aspect of T.

Usually when I get hit with Te, it goes along the lines of someone being very blunt, though correct logically, and hurting someone's feelings. This is especially true if they do this to others I am close to, rather than myself, and particularly in a social setting. Basically if someone blurts out something that is obviously true, but hurts the feelings of someone close from an ethical standpoint, I get annoyed, defensive of that other person and protective of the group, as it usually also causes general discomfort.

I find myself not wanting to cause conflict, but also finding the need to take a stand in order to restore a happy feeling withing the group, and to reassure the person at the brunt of those comments of his/her security within the group. So generally I feel uncomfortable at being forced to take verbal action, to stand out against this injustice, and that discomfort then goes on to cause me personal hurt and anger.

That's probably the best way to describe it? I hope that helps.

That describes some of your relationship with Te POLR.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's not about concrete facts. I prefer facts over fantasy any day actually. (my roleplaying nature and.... sweetness shan't be mistaken for flights of fantasy, as I hate idle daydreaming to be honest with you- doesn't make you feel alive and that it gets associated with IEIs irks me)

I seriously want to spit on whoever acts like I prefer some make-believe land to reality. I LOVE reality, I just perceive 'reality' in a different way than some other people, via my own functions.

Te is about...a certain way information is presented that I don't like. What is this certain way you ask? Well - first, it implies information with the key component being 'productivity' (kind of working for working sake which always made me feel like a jew at a concentration camp =/), that is- it tries to utilize and externalize information for some monsterous machine-like 'goal' that is just (to me) ultimately has no direction or significance. There's no spirit or oomph behind it. I just find that pointless and stupid and it drains/siphons my energy. You should have drive from within, if you have to look at external facts and meshing them together to get power (extroverted thinking), I just think that's lame.

Te tries to get me moving without taking into an account who I am in my core. Not just my feelings, cause every type feelings- Expat is most likely more emotionally sensitive than I am, that's not the point. It's just.... they focus on external information too much. (All Te is, rawly speaking, is extroverted thinking....objective facts.) Not that I don't like facts, again, I just hate facts without meaning- without taking into all our views etc. And that's just so shallow and pointless and stupid and dumb and retarded to me. You can't get me to do anything you want unless you understand me first. I'll just refuse to listen. Te to me is about getting me involved in 'the system' just to be in the system. I would say, to Te-valuers it's about some greater good....esp. to democratic gammas. It's about pure self-sacrifice. But I never really enjoyed people who did stuff for the 'greater good' even though, they probably are more moralistic than me, it just doesn't give me energy personally and it wastes my time.

[07490]

BTW, 17.6% of “PoLR” threads were started by Joy and this is hilarious for some reason of which I cannot explain. Jesus Christ, that is twenty-two “PoLR” threads from one person. lol.

Where is she?

[Rubicon]

Te to me is efficiency, practicality .. regardless of whether your heart's in what you're doing ... regardless of people's feelings. Both my parents are Te-leading .. so I think I'm somewhat immune .. or thought I was, until I realised that I'd developed habits of hiding my way of doing things, so as to not be criticised for my methods. Either that, or just doing things the way other people wanted them done - not caring at all about the outcome since I hated the process.

LSEs' Te is mostly about bluntness from my perspective. E.g. being on good terms with my flatmate, and her leaving me a note one morning that said something like "You left the door unlocked last night. That shows that you don't respect my property. I don't appreciate it." Which I found pretty rude, considering it was a one-off thing .. and considering my property was involved too. I thought she must have been really angry to write a note like that .. but she wasn't at all when I saw her next. I guess those were just the facts she wanted to get through to me. lol

LIEs' Te seems more a focus on not wasting personal time and energy. Like "why the hell would you wash those by hand when you could wait and put them in with a load of wash?"
"Because it's faster, and I don't mind doing it."
"Why walk all the way to the postbox when I'll be driving by one later on?"
"Erm .. because I feel like walking."
*suspicious look* "What else are you planning on doing?"
"What? I'd just rather post this letter right now."
"It's not going to get there faster. That doesn't make sense."
*sigh* "Does it matter? I just feel like walking over there."

And then there's scheduled relaxation which seems weird to me. Like they expect that because you prefer to do work in an enjoyable way that naturally you'll be glad to drop everything and relax at a time and in a way that they deem appropriate.

[implied]

Te to me is efficiency, practicality .. regardless of whether your heart's in what you're doing ... regardless of people's feelings. Both my parents are Te-leading .. so I think I'm somewhat immune .. or thought I was, until I realised that I'd developed habits of hiding my way of doing things, so as to not be criticised for my methods. Either that, or just doing things the way other people wanted them done - not caring at all about the outcome since I hated the process.

LSEs' Te is mostly about bluntness from my perspective. E.g. being on good terms with my flatmate, and her leaving me a note one morning that said something like "You left the door unlocked last night. That shows that you don't respect my property. I don't appreciate it." Which I found pretty rude, considering it was a one-off thing .. and considering my property was involved too. I thought she must have been really angry to write a note like that .. but she wasn't at all when I saw her next. I guess those were just the facts she wanted to get through to me. lol

LIEs' Te seems more a focus on not wasting personal time and energy. Like "why the hell would you wash those by hand when you could wait and put them in with a load of wash?"
"Because it's faster, and I don't mind doing it."
"Why walk all the way to the postbox when I'll be driving by one later on?"
"Erm .. because I feel like walking."
*suspicious look* "What else are you planning on doing?"
"What? I'd just rather post this letter right now."
"It's not going to get there faster. That doesn't make sense."
*sigh* "Does it matter? I just feel like walking over there."

And then there's scheduled relaxation which seems weird to me. Like they expect that because you prefer to do work in an enjoyable way that naturally you'll be glad to drop everything and relax at a time and in a way that they deem appropriate.

that is pretty much how i view , and some of the reasons why i'm led to think i possess it. my whole life pretty much revolves around doing as little work as possible, or doing whatever i work i do with minimal effort to be able to maintain a balance. not stressing myself needlessly, basically.

[calenwen]

I agree. Of course I care about how much something will cost me or how much time I'll spend on it, or the quality of something, etc. etc. etc.

Not talking for unefille here, but I agree with her that I don't want the "most efficient" plan for my entire life, if that means efficient as in getting a career and a house and a family and wealth... (but in situations, I try to make the best out of everything, of course.) My life goal is NOT to make money or be famous or anything concrete. I don't have "anything" at all I want to do, maybe except one day writing a novel, and if I do, I'd rather not publish it in my name, as I'd not like the attention, but even writing is not very important. What I want in life, is to learn, to gain wisdom and to find a meaning. I mean, I'll die one day anyways, so why would I care about the material/fame related stuff? Whatever I do in life will help me understand more, and as long as I observe things where life leads me, I'll learn what I'm supposed to learn. I do not - I repeat - I DO NOT want to control the path my life takes too much, as I think it'll only make me unhappy. Rather poor and lonely, than "controlled" by conventions and "smart choices".

Not sure how this relates to Te...

(:
Wow, I could have said this word for word. I'm sure that now my IEIness will be forever solidified in Niffweed's head, but regardless, I completely agree with everything you said here.

[munenori2]

Bee and Jem have pretty much nailed down exactly what comes to mind when I think of Te-PoLR.

[Mediator Kam]

I was much too lazy to say anything.

[munenori2]

Me too.

[Creepy-male]

SEIs, lol.

Seriously, you're worse than ILEs.

[Banana Pancakes]

Bee and Jem have pretty much nailed down exactly what comes to mind when I think of Te-PoLR.

did Jem change her username or something?

and @ all the lazy SEIs

[The Greeter]

Not talking for unefille here, but I agree with her that I don't want the "most efficient" plan for my entire life, if that means efficient as in getting a career and a house and a family and wealth... (but in situations, I try to make the best out of everything, of course.) My life goal is NOT to make money or be famous or anything concrete. I don't have "anything" at all I want to do, maybe except one day writing a novel, and if I do, I'd rather not publish it in my name, as I'd not like the attention, but even writing is not very important. What I want in life, is to learn, to gain wisdom and to find a meaning. I mean, I'll die one day anyways, so why would I care about the material/fame related stuff? Whatever I do in life will help me understand more, and as long as I observe things where life leads me, I'll learn what I'm supposed to learn. I do not - I repeat - I DO NOT want to control the path my life takes too much, as I think it'll only make me unhappy. Rather poor and lonely, than "controlled" by conventions and "smart choices".

Not sure how this relates to Te...

There are a lot of things I agree with. There are things I want to do, there are things I want to learn and things I just want to know just for its sake. If Te is about excluding the extraneous facets of life all for the sake of material wealth then I do not like Te. On the other hand, I don't think much of what you have said is related to Te.

Te efficiency is not about what the end product is, it's about how to attain a desired end product most efficiently. The end product may be material wealth, fixing a car, knowing everything about how the pi came to be or how a cat's vision differs from a human one.

[mikemex]

I'll illustrate what Te PoLR is:

Suppose you're a man in a relationship with a xEI and there is a beautiful and friendly woman in a store you visit frequently. Since you're not made of stone, you give her a few "dirty looks", but nothing with serious intentions. After you get out you forget about her and continue with your life.

For some reason you end up in the store some day and you get caught by your wife talking to this woman. She seems a little upset and both of you return to home. Once there, your wife starts to give you the cold shoulder and starts to give you indirect complaints about this woman.

(The above is just a context. Here is where the Te PoLR manifests itself.)

You tell her that you find this woman attractive (Te), but that you didn't really think anything more about it. There are beautiful women everywhere, after all (Te).

Now, your wife takes the Te thrown wrongly and she starts to scream that you're a damn cheater and that if you don't want to be with her you may as well just leave. You start to calm her down but she's convinced that you're interested in this woman (Fe).

Several days of turmoil pass until you promise your wife you're not going to visit the store anymore.

Point: xEI trust their impressions (Fe) while at the same time disregarding objective evidence (Te). Here the problem is that xEI tend to "read between lines" (Fe) when there is nothing to read (Te). Claiming that you find a woman attractive is simply a fact (Te), but an xEI will misinterpret such fact as a confirmation that you are in pursuit or this woman (Fe).

Conclusion: Te PoLR is the tendency to read "hidden meanings" in actions or words that are meant to be impersonal.

EDIT: I might add, that xEI are inneficient/not productive is just a manifestation of unvalued Te, no Te PoLR in particular. xEI are simply not interesting in performing activities that do not hold personal significance to themselves or their valued ones.

[Mediator Kam]

I'll illustrate what Te PoLR is:

Suppose you're a man in a relationship with a xEI and there is a beautiful and friendly woman in a store you visit frequently. Since you're not made of stone, you give her a few "dirty looks", but nothing with serious intentions. After you get out you forget about her and continue with your life.

For some reason you end up in the store some day and you get caught by your wife talking to this woman. She seems a little upset and both of you return to home. Once there, your wife starts to give you the cold shoulder and starts to give you indirect complaints about this woman.

(The above is just a context. Here is where the Te PoLR manifests itself.)

You tell her that you find this woman attractive (Te), but that you didn't really think anything more about it. There are beautiful women everywhere, after all (Te).

Now, your wife takes the Te thrown wrongly and she starts to scream that you're a damn cheater and that if you don't want to be with her you may as well just leave. You start to calm her down but she's convinced that you're interested in this woman (Fe).

Several days of turmoil pass until you promise your wife you're not going to visit the store anymore.

Point: xEI trust their impressions (Fe) while at the same time disregarding objective evidence (Te). Here the problem is that xEI tend to "read between lines" (Fe) when there is nothing to read (Te). Claiming that you find a woman attractive is simply a fact (Te), but an xEI will misinterpret such fact as a confirmation that you are in pursuit or this woman (Fe).

Conclusion: Te PoLR is the tendency to read "hidden meanings" in actions or words that are meant to be impersonal.

EDIT: I might add, that xEI are inneficient/not productive is just a manifestation of unvalued Te, no Te PoLR in particular. xEI are simply not interesting in performing activities that do not hold personal significance to themselves or their valued ones.

The problem with all of this is that I wouldn't say a woman is attractive if I wasn't interested in her, so from my point of view, someone who comes out and says a girl is attractive will get a look and a smile from me, thinking he is interested. Now if I am pressed to say if I think a girl is attractive or not, I can say that with no problem, but to say a woman is attractive of my own accord, I would be having "dirty thoughts" per say.

[mikemex]

The problem with all of this is that I wouldn't say a woman is attractive if I wasn't interested in her, so from my point of view, someone who comes out and says a girl is attractive will get a look and a smile from me, thinking he is interested. Now if I am pressed to say if I think a girl is attractive or not, I can say that with no problem, but to say a woman is attractive of my own accord, I would be having "dirty thoughts" per say.

Problem? What problem? I was just describing what a Te PoLR looks like.

About your comment, keep in mind that the man of the example is Te valuing. Stating that a woman is beautiful/attractive is just an objective fact, pretty much like stating that an apple is red. How do you feel about the red color -or the attractiveness of a woman- is another thing entirely.

[munenori2]

did Jem change her username or something?

rubicon = jem

[munenori2]

About your comment, keep in mind that the man of the example is Te valuing. Stating that a woman is beautiful/attractive is just an objective fact, pretty much like stating that an apple is red. How do you feel about the red color -or the attractiveness of a woman- is another thing entirely.

Attractiveness is an objective fact? It's more about how it impacts you than anything else. Two people can have totally different views of what excites them in an incomparable way to saying an apple is red. If you say someone is attractive you're feeling something. Why would you say someone's hot if they leave you feeling cold?

[Rubicon]

Attractiveness is an objective fact? It's more about how it impacts you than anything else. Two people can have totally different views of what excites them in an incomparable way to saying an apple is red. If you say someone is attractive you're feeling something. Why would you say someone's hot if they leave you feeling cold?

[calenwen]

Attractiveness is an objective fact? It's more about how it impacts you than anything else. Two people can have totally different views of what excites them in an incomparable way to saying an apple is red. If you say someone is attractive you're feeling something. Why would you say someone's hot if they leave you feeling cold?

Yes, people have different opinions on what they find attractive, just like they have different opinions about everything. But personally I can evaluate people's looks as attractive or not without being interested or feeling anything for them in the slightest. I do it all the time, actually. For example, don't we do that with celebrities all the time? I'm sure everyone who finds some random celebrity good looking doesn't "feel" something for them... or do they? Haha, have I been missing out on some great secret my whole life?

[Lotus]

Yes, people have different opinions on what they find attractive, just like they have different opinions about everything. But personally I can evaluate people's looks as attractive or not without being interested or feeling anything for them in the slightest. I do it all the time, actually. For example, don't we do that with celebrities all the time? I'm sure everyone who finds some random celebrity good looking doesn't "feel" something for them... or do they? Haha, have I been missing out on some great secret my whole life?

I agree with this. And tbh, I would be bothered if someone wasn't like this. I know I've said this before, but there is a huge different between attractive and attracted. As in, “I think you're attractive, but I'm not attracted to you.” I have a good understanding of whether it is one or the other in relationships, and I can't imagine being with someone who doesn't understand the difference.

[munenori2]

Yes, people have different opinions on what they find attractive, just like they have different opinions about everything. But personally I can evaluate people's looks as attractive or not without being interested or feeling anything for them in the slightest. I do it all the time, actually. For example, don't we do that with celebrities all the time? I'm sure everyone who finds some random celebrity good looking doesn't "feel" something for them... or do they? Haha, have I been missing out on some great secret my whole life?

Pretty fair counterexample, but I think it's different when you're talking about someone you've never met or ever really will versus somebody you run into and actually talk with, laugh with, etc. Is it really so easy to judge how attractive someone is without also bringing into it what they're like in person, how the interaction went, how comfortable or awkward they are to be around?

Now I'm not suggesting everyone should flip out like the gf in the example, but if you're with your SO and they're talking to someone and afterwards turn to you with some comment like, "He/She was very attractive," I think you'd be justified in feeling a little confused. Why'd you say that? What's the message?

I mean, if it's as objective as an apple being red, this comment would be in the same vein as if we were driving along the road and you kept reading aloud all the things or signs you saw, and I don't see the point of that kind of communication, especially about something that can be read so many ways.

[07490]

I agree with this. And tbh, I would be bothered if someone wasn't like this. I know I've said this before, but there is a huge different between attractive and attracted. As in, “I think you're attractive, but I'm not attracted to you.” I have a good understanding of whether it is one or the other in relationships, and I can't imagine being with someone who doesn't understand the difference.

I agree too, and I think in all seriousness there are some types that do not understand this, when you complement them on their look, they will take it as you are attracted to them, I feel like when I was younger, people who are immature in terms of age just does not get this concept, even if they have grown old enough and met different people with different kind of interpretation, they still deep inside think this attractive and attracted is the same term.

[mikemex]

You're defending your PoLR. It's no use. Accept that you interpret subjectively (Fe) bits of information that are objective (Te) in nature.

Even though you're are right in that filias and phobias have their origin on the individual (subjective) you are ignoring that when a large population shares such tastes, then it is no longer specific to anyone and turns into an objective fact among that population.

For example, most people find shit disgusting, so that shit is disgusting is an objective fact, not a subjective perception.

[xerx]

• http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-te-polr.html

lol. Classic thread.

[mikemex]

As an extrovert you might not get that, but an introvert sees the unconscious better, and feels it.

(...)

I don't see Te, nor Te PoLR in your example. And that's a fact.

What I DO see, however, is Anima and Animus games in action (JUNG). But that's not type, nor function-related, I think. It's male-female related.

There is where you're wrong and your point only serves the purpose of demonstrating that you have no clue about how Te valuers think.

First, remember that a Te valuer is at the same time a Fi valuer and all Fi valuers have a core necessity to develop the broadest social network possible. This implies establishing familiarity with strangers, even though there is no real interest in them.

I even have an anecdote for you to illustrate this. I once met an ESE female teacher and we had some major disagreements in class. After class I approached her to clarify things (improve our Fi bond) and even proposed her to work in an updated course. I accompanied her to do some stuff and she even offered to take me to the bus once. Thing is, I stopped assisting to the class. Later I met her again and she didn't even greet me; and there I realized a funny fact: she thought I was flirting with her and got furious when I simply steeped away!

My point is: Fe valuers often put too much weight on their ability to read other people. They are accurate only when interpreting other Fe valuers.

[Satan]

You are wrong. If you start TALKING with someone working in a shop, it means you unconsciously want something more. As an extrovert you might not get that, but an introvert sees the unconscious better, and feels it. Not saying you are wrong about this man consciously not wanting anything more, but you have to admit that TALKING with someone working in a shop in a manner that makes your partner jealous is NOT normal. Thus meaning the man did - at least on some unconscious level - want something more. The fact that he subjectively finds the other woman beautiful is not the problem. The problem is the fact that he engaged in a private talk with her because of finding her attractive.

Some partners get jealous easily. Although some guys chronically talk to other girls / are nicer to other girls / and more flirty with girls other than their partner. And then get PISSED OFF when their partner has a problem with it.

That I'm sure wouldn't make someone feel good. It'd make them feel less attractive, worse, less important / significant etc. And if the guy doesn't care then she may just decide one day to up and leave when she's had enough.

I also meet men I find attractive, I even dream about them, but I don't act. UNLESS I want something more...The mistake of the person in your example was to act upon the dreams if he didn't mean for it to lead anywhere. (I suppose the "talking" must have been very personal since the wife got jealous). Had I been his wife, I'd feel hurt as well had I seen him (but I probably wouldn't have confronted him, as I don't like to control others, people must be free to act as they find better).

I, myself, see the potential for interaction other than people I find "attractive", I chat a little to both guys and girls. Although some people are easier to talk with, and some are harder. And sometimes I just let it slide.

I have no problems hearing my husband say he finds someone attractive. I also have no problems saying I find someone attractive, I often do, and I'm an XEI. However, I don't agree in any ways that beauty is an undeniable objective fact, it is a subjective opinion. Example, I find Thom Yorke incredibly sexy and attractive, but I know a lot of people don't share that opinion. Also, I know a lot of people find Brad Pitt sexy, while I find him rather unattractive (he has no neck!), but he's a great actor. Another example - I find Michelle Pfeiffer scarylooking, witch-like and cold like a bloodless vampire, but a friend of mine finds her beautiful and "hot". It's interesting how differently people perceive others. All of what we see are projections, of course, since neither of us know these people.

I don't see Te, nor Te PoLR in your example. And that's a fact.

What I DO see, however, is Anima and Animus games in action (JUNG). But that's not type, nor function-related, I think. It's male-female related.

Sometimes I think it's interesting to be aware of what kind of people others find attractive. Although what gets disconcerting to me, is when guys are attracted to similar girls to you. Sometimes it's like totally different girls, and there's no threat.