Distinguishing between Te leading and Se leading

[Sirena]

How can I tell apart an Se leading person from a Te leading person? As I try to type more people out there in the world, I've noticed that I am unsure about being able to distinguish the two, since both give off a strong presence.

I was in a work meeting today at which one of the people present was an attorney that works for a non-profit agency that advocates for children. We've been in a few meetings together already and she is always very much on her game. Proactive and direct. Outspoken, opinionated. Will tell you like it is without beating around the bush. She is the one that makes sure things get done. Now, I realize a part of this is related to that being her job and since I don't know her personally, I find it hard to comment outside of that. But she does seem to be that sort of person whether at work or not. Her presence originally gave me an Se leading vibe, but now I wonder if that is correct, since I think I have a really hard time recognizing Te leading when I see it. So I may well be overlooking it.

Any tips?

[ArchonAlarion]

This is a great question.

One thing I've noticed is that Te leading types are concerned over method and Se types are not.

Like I have an Te ESTj neighbor. She does not have that raw physical presence that Se types do. Her features are softer, she is always helping people out (she works for hole in the wall gang camp; ya know, paul newman's thing?), like she just give my family tons and tons and tons of surplus items from her work, things the camp has no room for. High quality shit too. She has strong opinions about art, food, and people (Fi agenda).

There is an annoying quality to her however. She can't stop acting. Obvious 7w8 fixation. She talks and talks and talks, although there is a comforting feel I get from having her around. Like a nice background atmosphere. She has to tell a story from beginning to end with NO detail ommitted. And she tells lots of stories. It doesnt matter how insignificant they are. Just endlessly relaying information about what happened.

Okay Im rambling. My point wassssssss that Se types may bark at you. They may act out, cause a ruckus, and intimidate. But Beta Se modes (Se ESTp Se ISTj) have little interest in control. Its like, "Sure. I'll get in your face, I'll make things happen, I'll manipulate, I'll lay out whats real and whats BS fantasy, but I have no interest in how you will go about doing it."

Maybe Im not making sense?

There's this... control thing. Its like Te leadings need to know everything thats going on and they need dictate to everyone what to do. Obviously Te types will disagree somewhat phrasing it in their own way, but I've got your number you bastards!

Se types are like an explosion. Boom. Pop. Crackle. Fizz. repeat. Yay I made stuff happen.

Te types are like a gear in a machine. They keep trucking on, reaching out, grabbing onto the events, trying to set them in an orderly fashion. Order being whatever the Te thinks should happen. Trying to get energy out of the task and outputting direction back into it.

well w/e i tried. poop.

[Jarno]

controlling and decisive VS go with the flow

[ArchonAlarion]

hey guys your basically on track, but Te types don't really wear signs around their necks with the word efficiency on it.

I think she's looking for ways to differentiate them.

Anyways, "efficiency" is a useless word for this. I like efficiency and I think about it often. Whether someone tries to be efficient or not will unlikely help in typing.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Well how do you generally feel upon meeting her, or do you not know her well enough yet? Instead of psychoanalyzing her just pay attention to how you and her kinda interact. If she's really painful/draining , kind of like...she exhausts you and you want to run away and get the hell away from there, she's most likely Te-leading.

(I know a lot of people all have their opinions on what conflicting relations are about.) But yeah just pay attention to how she makes you feel, generally and primarily.

[ArchonAlarion]

i was not disagreeing with you. In fact i do agree with ya.

My point was that you should elaborate for Sirena.

s'all

[Sirena]

Well how do you generally feel upon meeting her, or do you not know her well enough yet? Instead of psychoanalyzing her just pay attention to how you and her kinda interact. If she's really painful/draining , kind of like...she exhausts you and you want to run away and get the hell away from there, she's most likely Te-leading.

(I know a lot of people all have their opinions on what conflicting relations are about.) But yeah just pay attention to how she makes you feel, generally and primarily.

I've never even had a one-on-one conversation with her, so I think that our professional roles might be making it hard for me to type her, especially since she is a lawyer and her role in the meeting is to make sure things get done the way they should (she's an advocate lawyer). However, I am trying to look at her style, how she carries herself. Hmm I think more than likely she is Se leading. SEE>SLE.

I have an ESTj co-worker. We've worked as part of the same team for 2 and half years now. Imagine how draining that is! The two of us supervise our department. Not to sound overly dramatic or make a big deal out of conflict relationships, but I can honestly say it's been a nightmare. The cumulative effect of having to interact with her so closely on a daily basis is a big part of why I put in my resignation. I mean, we've never been unfriendly to each other and she's not a bad person. On the contrary, we've always tried SO HARD to be friends. I'm not sure why, but she has always insisted on hanging out outside of work and for quite a while I used to comply so as not to hurt her feelings. Though I now realize that what I should have done is to be honest and not give her false hope. Just, from the minute we met, I felt this strong sense of discomfort. No matter how hard I try, I am always uncomfortable around her. Like I have to watch myself because I know to her I am always doing things the wrong way and she's so passive-aggressive about everything. What sucks is that she actually thought we were friends, good friends. I understand how I might have given her that impression by hanging out with her sometimes, but I honestly just don't get how she would actually think that to the extent she did. I've never been able to trust her, which maybe is unfair since it is no reflection on her character. Objectively, she is a trustworthy person. But I dunno, it's just how she makes me feel. Maybe it's because we define just about everything differently...what it means to be good at our job, for instance. I find her patronizing because she makes suggestions sound like "just an idea" when it's really not. It's her way to try to control me. UGH!!! And I can't respect it because it's so damn passive aggressive. Say things to my face for God's sake! Oh and of course the whole time she thinks she's just being nice. Ha! She wants things done her way but won't say it. Will deny it. And she's so anal. It's like she thinks that being "perfect" in that way makes her a good person. Because God forbid you come in late! She'll strongly disapprove! Makes you a bad and dishonest person. But does she actually tell you shit?? NO! But she'll sure as hell make sure you feel like shit about it. frustration frustration frustration frustratiooooon.....

I'm not saying this is all type-related, but anyway.

i was not disagreeing with you. In fact i do agree with ya.

My point was that you should elaborate for Sirena.

s'all

Thanks! I know what you were getting at and I found your post quite helpful.

[Wynch]

This is a great question.

One thing I've noticed is that Te leading types are concerned over method and Se types are not.

But Beta Se modes (Se ESTp Se ISTj) have little interest in control. Its like, "Sure. I'll get in your face, I'll make things happen, I'll manipulate, I'll lay out whats real and whats BS fantasy, but I have no interest in how you will go about doing it."

There's this... control thing. Its like Te leadings need to know everything thats going on and they need dictate to everyone what to do. Obviously Te types will disagree somewhat phrasing it in their own way, but I've got your number you bastards!

This, though ISXjs like to dictate a lot too, I've noticed.

Efficiency vs Impact

and this

Is the person interested in the quality of the process (efficiency and effectiveness) or the (impact or speed) of the result? Are communications directive, controlled and filled with 'shoulds'?

This, though the process/result dichotomy only applies to ESTps and ESTjs in this case.

The way I see it, Se and Te are both true/false elements.

Se, dealing with static objects, sees things in a singularity of true/false. Se egos deal with what they see as objective certainties. People like to attribute the idea of factuality to Te, however I believe that's really more characteristic of Se.

Te, dealing with dynamic objects, sees processes in a true or false. If you think of a machine, Te is setting up the cogwork to set up the right or wrong process to make it run.

EXTjs are going to be analyzing processes as true/false, effecient and effective, etc and they will choose to deal with those processes in different ways. ESTj, the process Te, will use +Si creative to take a process they see as inefficient and make it better, tighten the cogwork as it were. ENTjs, the result Te, will use -Ni creative to see where a process is headed and use that to obtain the best result.

ESXps are going to be analyzing "facts", perceived truths and choose to deal with those processes in different ways. ESTp, the result Se, will use creative +Ti to ascertain that a conclusion should be accepted or rejected. ESFp, the process Se, will use creative -Fi to establish the good or bad ways of reaching a certain end. This ESFp one is admittedly crappy because I have a difficult time projecting myself into the gamma SF mindset, lol.

[munenori2]

One thing I've noticed is that Te leading types are concerned over method and Se types are not.

Like I have an Te ESTj neighbor. She does not have that raw physical presence that Se types do.

My point wassssssss that Se types may bark at you. They may act out, cause a ruckus, and intimidate. But Beta Se modes (Se ESTp Se ISTj) have little interest in control. Its like, "Sure. I'll get in your face, I'll make things happen, I'll manipulate, I'll lay out whats real and whats BS fantasy, but I have no interest in how you will go about doing it."

There's this... control thing. Its like Te leadings need to know everything thats going on and they need dictate to everyone what to do.

Se types are like an explosion. Boom. Pop. Crackle. Fizz. repeat. Yay I made stuff happen.

Te types are like a gear in a machine. They keep trucking on, reaching out, grabbing onto the events, trying to set them in an orderly fashion. Order being whatever the Te thinks should happen.

Efficiency vs Impact

Se, dealing with static objects, sees things in a singularity of true/false. Se egos deal with what they see as objective certainties. People like to attribute the idea of factuality to Te, however I believe that's really more characteristic of Se.

Te, dealing with dynamic objects, sees processes in a true or false. If you think of a machine, Te is setting up the cogwork to set up the right or wrong process to make it run.

EXTjs are going to be analyzing processes as true/false, effecient and effective, etc and they will choose to deal with those processes in different ways. ESTj, the process Te, will use +Si creative to take a process they see as inefficient and make it better, tighten the cogwork as it were.

ESXps are going to be analyzing "facts", perceived truths and choose to deal with those processes in different ways. ESTp, the result Se, will use creative +Ti to ascertain that a conclusion should be accepted or rejected.

I have to laugh because having an ESTp supervisor and an ESTj manager all the above seems extremely spot on. The efficiency vs impact thing might be a little vague to someone who hasn't seen the two side by side but, man, it's patently obvious when you live with it every day!

[ArchonAlarion]

ESTps feel "soft" somehow. There is something "moveable" in their approach, and they seem to hear what you say and understand it. If they disagree, their arguments will make sense, and they seem to attack exactly the arguments you made, head on. You never doubt what they mean, and you can normally work fast together. If the ESTp is an asshole, you know he's an asshole.... It's like communicating with a lion.

Nietzsche (Ni INFp):

For others do I wait...for higher ones, stronger ones, more triumphant ones, merrier ones, for such as are built squarely in body and soul: laughing lions must come.

[Wynch]

ESTjs feel "like hitting a brick wall" - hard and dry. They seem to love telling people HOW to do things, and normally what they say makes no sense (imo) and totally disregards a bigger picture (again imo). When you disagree with them, they often look as if they find your arguments irrelevant, and then they answer something that seems totally irrelevant to the point you made, as if they didn't understand anything. Normally, it's painful to work with them. It's like communicating with a rock.

Your spiel about ESTps was silly to me, probably because I obviously don't relate to ESTps like that, hahaha.

HOWEVER! This is the most hilariously apt description of ESTjs ever. Honestly, I lolled. I almost want to phone up my dad and talk to him about my life just so I can experience this same sensation and laugh about it some more.

[Wynch]

Process/result was not in reference to the Reinin dichotomy - I don't subscribe to this theory.

Ah, ok. With all the underlining I thought you were making the Reinin reference. My apologies

It makes me want to call your dad too.. Well, I've tried it and doesn't work. Trust me.

No, no, no. I didn't want to call dad to try and climb the wall, I just wanted to call to experience the wall for a little bit. You know, enjoy the lol-factor.

[ArchonAlarion]

Incognito is totally your mom Vero.

Hah. I didn't know lol.

coolio.

[Smilingeyes]

These are the "vibes" I get from ESTps and ESTjs respectively:

ESTps feel "soft" somehow. There is something "moveable" in their approach, and they seem to hear what you say and understand it. If they disagree, their arguments will make sense, and they seem to attack exactly the arguments you made, head on. You never doubt what they mean, and you can normally work fast together. If the ESTp is an asshole, you know he's an asshole.... It's like communicating with a lion.

(ESTp-Ti can sometimes feel a bit "harder" initially, but if they make sense, then they are SLEs...)

ESTjs feel "like hitting a brick wall" - hard and dry. They seem to love telling people HOW to do things, and normally what they say makes no sense (imo) and totally disregards a bigger picture (again imo). When you disagree with them, they often look as if they find your arguments irrelevant, and then they answer something that seems totally irrelevant to the point you made, as if they didn't understand anything. Normally, it's painful to work with them. It's like communicating with a rock.

Hope that made sense??
(I don't expect others than IEIs to "feel" this, lol)

Hm. I don't see how this applies to the situation.
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[duality is cringe]

ESTjs feel "like hitting a brick wall" - hard and dry. They seem to love telling people HOW to do things, and normally what they say makes no sense (imo) and totally disregards a bigger picture (again imo). When you disagree with them, they often look as if they find your arguments irrelevant, and then they answer something that seems totally irrelevant to the point you made, as if they didn't understand anything. Normally, it's painful to work with them. It's like communicating with a rock.

Some SEI-Fe girl at my workplace recently said that talking to me is like talking to a brick wall. This isn't intended to be relevant, but I decided to post nonetheless.

[Sirena]

Some SEI-Fe girl at my workplace recently said that talking to me is like talking to a brick wall. This isn't intended to be relevant, but I decided to post nonetheless.

That's coz you're LSE (re: irrelevance). *neutral face*

[ArchonAlarion]

DeAnte, you seem more like a Te ISTp to me.

[duality is cringe]

DeAnte, you seem more like a Te ISTp to me.

I am. The LSE thing was a joke. Unfortunately, the message has yet to reach my sig.

[ArchonAlarion]

ahhh

hokay.

[pluie]

How can I tell apart an Se leading person from a Te leading person? As I try to type more people out there in the world, I've noticed that I am unsure about being able to distinguish the two, since both give off a strong presence.

I was in a work meeting today at which one of the people present was an attorney that works for a non-profit agency that advocates for children. We've been in a few meetings together already and she is always very much on her game. Proactive and direct. Outspoken, opinionated. Will tell you like it is without beating around the bush. She is the one that makes sure things get done. Now, I realize a part of this is related to that being her job and since I don't know her personally, I find it hard to comment outside of that. But she does seem to be that sort of person whether at work or not. Her presence originally gave me an Se leading vibe, but now I wonder if that is correct, since I think I have a really hard time recognizing Te leading when I see it. So I may well be overlooking it.

Any tips?

lol, Sirena, you [/i]would[/i] have the perfect thread I was looking for! I was having this EXACT question this entire week! thank youuu lol <3 even though it wasn't intentional. i guess my Fe makes me wanna express my happinessssss/appreciation. or my endorphines. or both.

[pluie]

Is the person interested in the quality of the process (efficiency and effectiveness) or the (impact or speed) of the result? Are communications directive, controlled and filled with 'shoulds'?

me likeee^^



lol.


sorry i have nothing useful to say. just giving my Fe two-cents.

[ArchonAlarion]

Makes perfect sense. And I definitely notice the LSE tendency to tell a story from beginning to end while including every damn detail imaginable. It makes my brain want to cry, but yeah.

Cool. glad it helped

[Sirena]

lol, Sirena, you [/i]would[/i] have the perfect thread I was looking for! I was having this EXACT question this entire week! thank youuu lol <3 even though it wasn't intentional. i guess my Fe makes me wanna express my happinessssss/appreciation. or my endorphines. or both.

haha, you're silly. glad you found what you were looking for.

[Ezra]

I like Mimosa's post the best. Clearly shows the nature of IEI duality vs. conflict.

Plus, it hits on something with the LSE. Essentially, an LSE has totally different motivations to an SLE. They're not even similar. They use their strong functions in a different way to each other e.g. Se in the SLE is obviously base function, but in the LSE, it's like "I saw how you just Se there, SLE kid, which I am also good at but devalue; hence I will make a joke out of you at the meeting tomorrow with other Deltas who find my humour funny".

LSEs don't want to talk or understand - they just want to do.

I know it sounds like anti-LSE propaganda, but it really isn't.