Your stories and experiences with SLE/ESTp kids

[redbaron]

I have a good friend (IEI also) with an SLE son. he's very cute--totally charming and much the way you describe your son! I don't think it's very fair of the relatives to allow one without the other, wow. Basically, he is who he is and should be loved by them for who he is! Maybe there are some tips you could give them on how to handle him the way YOU do, since he gets along so well with you. Maybe he would do better in a physical environment such as a playground where he can burn off lots of energy and then be more likely to go along with what others want for the rest of the day. And probably lay off the sugar also. I dunno, I'm sure you've already thought of that!

[Slacker]

I don't know what to do about your son, but I think it would be reasonable to tell your close relatives that you don't want your son to feel like your daughter is the favorite so they either have to have both visit or neither.

[Slacker]

Of course I told them!!!! Immediately.

(They used a (really lame) excuse, of course, but still, I got furious, and answered just as you suggest. The worst thing is that they told it so my son heard it, and that really made me angry. Only because he's small, does not mean he can't hear. )

Aw, the poor kid. People don't realize that THIS is where behavior problems come from - when kids are treated like this. He just needs to be treated like he's the special little guy he is. Give him a hug for me!

[Jarno]

Why not take him to boxing lessons, he'll get rid of his agression and you might get a new world heavy weight champion in your family, he'll make lot's of money, though loses all again by law suits of the women he rapes, but you get to keep his two tiger pets!

[1981slater]

A good way of making lively people take things easy is making them joining a soccer team or something like that. If he lets all his energy go out when training he will be less unpredictable when the training is over, mainly because he'll be tired.

Anyway, I think only kids aged 6 onwards are allowed to join sports teams so...give him a ball and let him play in your garden!

[mikemex]

@Mimosa:

You're the one who is wrong, not your son. The way he treats you is irrelevant; what matters is the way he treats others. And if he does unpleasant things to others, why is it so strange that they don't want him around?

It is obvious to me that you disregard the rights of others on this matter. You want everyone to handle him the same way you do: as a parent who forgives everything. But I'll tell you about the situation plain and straight: the world doesn't look at your son the same way you do and you have to accept it. For you he might be the most important person in the world; for others he's just one of millions. That he's liked or not will depend entirely on how he treats others.

The police has seen such scenes too many times. They raid a house to apprehend a criminal, only for the mother to come out and shout that her son is the sweetest person in the world, incapable of doing any wrong. But the mother usually ignores that her "little angel" actually killed someone in cold blood. (of course, this is only to illustrate my point, I'm not suggesting your son will become a criminal or anything).

Learn to be impartial and just yourself and your son will learn it from you. Keep treating your son with unconditional indulgence and he will grow to believe he can do anything he wishes.

[misutii]

A good way of making lively people take things easy is making them joining a soccer team or something like that. If he lets all his energy go out when training he will be less unpredictable when the training is over, mainly because he'll be tired.

Anyway, I think only kids aged 6 onwards are allowed to join sports teams so...give him a ball and let him play in your garden!

I think an even better option is martial arts. I know an SLE that took martial arts and I've never seen him lose his temper. Martial arts teaches discipline, respect, and most importantly teaches people how to remain mentally calm (and be less negatively reactive)in stressful situations.

[Brilliand]

What's his dad's type? He probably needs an ego to teach him his place - that he can't pick a fight with anything and everything. The way you treat him is great for letting him be himself, but he also needs a superior to show him his limits.

ETA: Getting into boxing/martial arts just might do the trick, especially if the coach is an SLE!

[07490]

@Mimosa:

You're the one who is wrong, not your son. The way he treats you is irrelevant; what matters is the way he treats others. And if he does unpleasant things to others, why is it so strange that they don't want him around?

It is obvious to me that you disregard the rights of others on this matter. You want everyone to handle him the same way you do: as a parent who forgives everything. But I'll tell you about the situation plain and straight: the world doesn't look at your son the same way you do and you have to accept it. For you he might be the most important person in the world; for others he's just one of millions. That he's liked or not will depend entirely on how he treats others.

The police has seen such scenes too many times. They raid a house to apprehend a criminal, only for the mother to come out and shout that her son is the sweetest person in the world, incapable of doing any wrong. But the mother usually ignores that her "little angel" actually killed someone in cold blood. (of course, this is only to illustrate my point, I'm not suggesting your son will become a criminal or anything).

Learn to be impartial and just yourself and your son will learn it from you. Keep treating your son with unconditional indulgence and he will grow to believe he can do anything he wishes.

It is really also not your relatives fault for not inviting him over. Your relative is obivously welcoming your other daughter to their house, which means that they accept your family, but becuase of your son's behavior, he is not willingly being accepted. It is really their house afterall, you can't be mad at them for not inviting your son especially since it is a fact that they are welcoming one, but not the other, pointing out to you that they want that behavior to stop at their house. I think it is a pretty reasonable and logical thing they point to you that one is and one is not without showing disrespect to completely telling yout everyone in your household is not accepted.

[Wittmont]

@Mimosa:

You're the one who is wrong, not your son. The way he treats you is irrelevant; what matters is the way he treats others. And if he does unpleasant things to others, why is it so strange that they don't want him around?

It is obvious to me that you disregard the rights of others on this matter. You want everyone to handle him the same way you do: as a parent who forgives everything. But I'll tell you about the situation plain and straight: the world doesn't look at your son the same way you do and you have to accept it. For you he might be the most important person in the world; for others he's just one of millions. That he's liked or not will depend entirely on how he treats others.

The police has seen such scenes too many times. They raid a house to apprehend a criminal, only for the mother to come out and shout that her son is the sweetest person in the world, incapable of doing any wrong. But the mother usually ignores that her "little angel" actually killed someone in cold blood. (of course, this is only to illustrate my point, I'm not suggesting your son will become a criminal or anything).

Learn to be impartial and just yourself and your son will learn it from you. Keep treating your son with unconditional indulgence and he will grow to believe he can do anything he wishes.

Wow, what a nice lecture!

I've met the little boy and I have no problems with him at all. He IS a sweet fun loving kid... And Mimosa is hardly "unconditionally indulgent", whatever gave you that idea? I'd say she is very good at setting limits for her kids and she is very clear what is allowed and what isn't. I'd say the problem is more that other grownups are not as clear or even hypocritical in their actions...

[07490]

yea it is something about it, very down to earth, something I would definity said when I watch "cops" on tv and would say.

[Wittmont]

yea it is something about it, very down to earth, something I would definity said when I watch "cops" on tv and would say.

Tap your sarcasm meter dude :wink:

[07490]

What's his dad's type? He probably needs an ego to teach him his place - that he can't pick a fight with anything and everything. The way you treat him is great for letting him be himself, but he also needs a superior to show him his limits.

ETA: Getting into boxing/martial arts just might do the trick, especially if the coach is an SLE!

Most of the top notch martial art students who has been trained for years are mostly SE ego i have noted, I think yea in contrast to using this art as a weapon, they becomes incrediblely self discipline.

[mikemex]

If I may, I would advice you to not give advices to people without knowing them. You have never SEEN the kid, nor met me, so how can you possibly know what you are talking about? Luckily you don't, and your post actually made as little sense as it possibly could. I had to giggle a bit at the "police storming the house" part.... (You ENFPs really are afraid of SLEs aren't you?)

Don't get defensive, I'm not attacking you. Just don't expect sympathy from me. Sympathy serves the purpose of reinforcing your already established position on a topic and what you need is to change it because you're wrong. You're blaming others unfairly.

I don't need to know you or your son to express an opinion on the topic. It seems to me that you're taking Socionics too lightly here. You're not as unique as you think and neither is your son. You say your kid is very mature; so seem all STs. You say your kid has a high IQ: quite a surprise considering that Ti makes up for a large part of the IQ concept. Don't be delusional, you're still one of millions, don't think your case is special.

You hit the nail on the last part and your point only serves to reinforce mine. I dislike SLEs being around because they are always trying to push you in some way. Most are not physically violent, but they will subtlety like to apply psychological pressure on others. I know an SLE kid, about the age of your son, and he never misses a chance to undermine others. I remember that a friend was going to take us in his old car to buy something at the store and the little kid started to tease my friend about his "garbage car", thinking it was funny. It was only time until he got into my friend's nerves and he flat demanded the parent to either shut up the damn kid or they will be walking to the store.

I know what I'm talking about. It's up to you if you are strong enough to accept that your perspective is wrong. SLEs may be good people, but they do a lot of things that justifies social ostracizing.

[redbaron]

LOL, Mimosa, you make me laugh.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

How do you soothe down an sle?

Read him a children's book written by an IEI (Most books are written by IEI) They will be mesmerized and amazed, and you will be feeding the Ni he so desperately wants. Ni is best given through the written word, and speaking the written word aloud as such as in books will do the trick. Nis write, Ses read and absorb the Ni of the Ni's words.

I read to Sean sometimes online, stories that I write for him. He's SLE- and we're both adult gay males. But the concept is the same and he loves it. Fiction/fantasy is better than a book about how to 'wash his hands' because that will be just another thing that tries to control the sweet boy. Help him develop his imagination side. He's going rambunctious because he's in a typical American environment where they care more or less how he's behaving instead of how he's thinking or feeling. So develop his imagination by reading him children's fantasy books often.

So yeah, read him a fantasy book that doesn't tell him what to do, but helps him innately realize that he's special.

[redbaron]

awww, great idea, B&D!

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Thanks. Yeah, I think the solution here is that you should read him stuff about pure imagination... that doesn't judge him or tell him what to do. This will calm him down more and he will be uh more....I think what I do to Sean is, I just calm him down, before he does something stupid that he'll regret later, or will get him into trouble.

[Satan]

People have to learn to get by on their own.

When we learn of our own existance in this world we realise that other people aren't necessarily as aware of their own existance.

When they fumble and fall, they may not even be aware of it. We can either help them, or hinder them.

When we're in a position where we're going a lot, and not losing very often then the anti has to be raised.

I think the mistake a lot of people make is that they think that people have had "enough" that peole aer doing "enough", that things are going "well enough", and that "things will work out".

What is necessary is exposure. Is directness. Is accountability, is responsibility.

A good technique for younger kids is to try getting them to see things from someone elses point of view when they're not so good at talking from their own point of view.

It's like if he misbehaves, you can then ask him how he'd deal with a situation with a younger kid.

Thing is, if he's four. He's really fucking young, and so in a way I reckon, the younger kids are the more you have to not use words. Instead you have to use actions, drama, showing.

If you want him to behave well to others, behave well to others yourself, and show that you're not going to allow other people to misbehave towards you. Then allow him to pick up on that, rather than punishing for "bad" behaviour which tends to encourage kids into repeating bad behaviour if they happen to get into the mind set that it doesn't matter what they're going to do, they're going to get told off anyway. And so they may as well "punish" the adults, by making their life harder. Then they can watch how out of control the adults are so that they feel more in control.

[Satan]

Don't get defensive, I'm not attacking you. Just don't expect sympathy from me. Sympathy serves the purpose of reinforcing your already established position on a topic and what you need is to change it because you're wrong. You're blaming others unfairly.

I don't need to know you or your son to express an opinion on the topic. It seems to me that you're taking Socionics too lightly here. You're not as unique as you think and neither is your son. You say your kid is very mature; so seem all STs. You say your kid has a high IQ: quite a surprise considering that Ti makes up for a large part of the IQ concept. Don't be delusional, you're still one of millions, don't think your case is special.

You hit the nail on the last part and your point only serves to reinforce mine. I dislike SLEs being around because they are always trying to push you in some way. Most are not physically violent, but they will subtlety like to apply psychological pressure on others. I know an SLE kid, about the age of your son, and he never misses a chance to undermine others. I remember that a friend was going to take us in his old car to buy something at the store and the little kid started to tease my friend about his "garbage car", thinking it was funny. It was only time until he got into my friend's nerves and he flat demanded the parent to either shut up the damn kid or they will be walking to the store.

I know what I'm talking about. It's up to you if you are strong enough to accept that your perspective is wrong. SLEs may be good people, but they do a lot of things that justifies social ostracizing.

If people are going to be so fucking sensitive, and have such readily pushed buttons that a kid can make them lose their temper then they must be pretty waek.

Why tho fuck do we allow this weakness in man knid. We need to be stronger, he needs to be stronger. If he's going to cry just because someone doesn't like the colour of his shirt, or the type of car he drives, then he's got major issues. And derves to be exposed for the fraud he is.

[07490]

People have to learn to get by on their own.

When we learn of our own existance in this world we realise that other people aren't necessarily as aware of their own existance.

When they fumble and fall, they may not even be aware of it. We can either help them, or hinder them.

When we're in a position where we're going a lot, and not losing very often then the anti has to be raised.

I think the mistake a lot of people make is that they think that people have had "enough" that peole aer doing "enough", that things are going "well enough", and that "things will work out".

What is necessary is exposure. Is directness. Is accountability, is responsibility.

A good technique for younger kids is to try getting them to see things from someone elses point of view when they're not so good at talking from their own point of view.

It's like if he misbehaves, you can then ask him how he'd deal with a situation with a younger kid.

Thing is, if he's four. He's really fucking young, and so in a way I reckon, the younger kids are the more you have to not use words. Instead you have to use actions, drama, showing.

If you want him to behave well to others, behave well to others yourself, and show that you're not going to allow other people to misbehave towards you. Then allow him to pick up on that, rather than punishing for "bad" behaviour which tends to encourage kids into repeating bad behaviour if they happen to get into the mind set that it doesn't matter what they're going to do, they're going to get told off anyway. And so they may as well "punish" the adults, by making their life harder. Then they can watch how out of control the adults are so that they feel more in control.

I think this might work coming from an SLE himself.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

People have to learn to get by on their own.

Yeah, but dude- he's 4 years old =/ And SLEs are already naturally independent/self-confident so I don't think that's quite the issue here.

[unefille]

Your son looks adorable! And god Mikemex, stop being so patronising and judgemental. How can you be so disparaging about a type? It boggles the mind.

I have nothing substantive to contribute, but to say that after I taught a few SLE students last year, I've thought that I really wouldn't mind an SLE son (or daughter, as it may be). They're so awesome and fun.

[Creepy-male]

Actually, I'll write him some stories - great idea!

*sniffs*

I smell the next J.K. Rowling. But you aren't a Gamma... hmm...

Why couldn't I have had parents like you people?

EDIT

And I don't mean like mikemex. Been there, done that. Do you have kids? I fear for them.

[Satan]

Thank you Merc!!!

I like your style, and I agree with most of what you say.

Well, thankyou. I'd say that I try, but I'm not.

NB! There are no "problems" with the boy, he's a normal, well-behaved kid, extremely positive, active and helpful, and we have a superb relation. I just used him as an example.

Well that's good. When I was young, I seemed to often get umm "discounted". Treated harder.

I'd like to hear from you and other SLEs how YOU saw the world when you were small (4 - 13 years)? How did you feel when you were in unknown situations (did you also react with anger in any kind of stress)? Also, because

Well, it's really really hard to remember back that far. For me, it's like I've got a few blocks or something - and it's like sometimes I can go one level deep, sometimes another... but it's like, pretty hard to go very far back..

Also everything from back then is distorted based upon new experiences I've had, and it can be hard to be aware of how I saw things then, compared with what I know now.

Some people they seem a lot better at that kind of thing than me.

But let's see. In unknown situations I often seemed to be quiet or loud.

I used to be told I was overreacting sometimes to stressful situations.

But hey, I don't know. Let's see what's an unknown situation... okay, well for instance, I used to have this problem where people would tell me that someone else had a problem with me. And I'd be like I don't give a shit.

Anyway, at one stage I learned that some people were scared to approach me. So at one stage I went through asking people if they were scared of me one by one. I'm not sure if you can imagine such a thing. But what people say isn't that accurate. Anyway, from doing such you sometimes get other information. Like sometimes people are like: "I'm not scared of you. I just don't like you." - Which is easy - "You don't have to like me."

What I gleamed from such, is that when I'm in a bad mood some people are weary of pissing me off, and having me go off at them. And it's like they don't know what to expect.

So anyway, I used to go through people who were important to me, and I was like if you have a problem with me tell me, and then I'd kind of wait. And it's like based upon how long it took for them to respond it's like I could guage how "ready" they were to respond to me.

The thing is most people when they have a problem don't tell you, they tell other people, and gossip, and undermine you and so forth. And then it's like you end up with this complicated situation.

So in a way you have to have who you care about, and who you don't. And if people you care about gossip, undermine you etc, then they don't care about you. So you can either confront them about it, or you can drop them.

Now the thing is - if people gossip about you, undermine you, etc, and they don't actually have any effect on you, or people you care about, then it's not really a big problem.

But some people are just plain assholes. And they'll go out of their way to hurt you, or people you care about. And then they'll try and turn things around to "you" being bad.

So you start to look for warning signs, so you're aware of who's good, and who's bad.

You start developing a system so that you don't get surprised. You start threatening people mildly, to make sure that they'll fit in. Then people tell you that it's "hard". And that you're being "too hard" on them. And blah blah. And some people just don't want the complications of interacting with more people...

many SLEs have an almost aggressive way of moving and looking at times, they will often be treated harder than others from the start. Example - my IEI daughter (the one he hugs in the photo) is met from the start with a sweet tone of voice and smiles whenever she meets new people, while people meet my son with hard words like "don't misbehave" from the start. It's so damn

Hmm. I'm not sure. Meeting new people. A few people have told me that I'm "scary" at first, but then they get used to me. Some people have actually kind of reminded me of what I can be like with new people.

Which to me isn't that bad. But it's like I test boundaries/limits. I can be like "Who the fuck are you" - "What are you doing here" - "What the fuck's wrong with you" - "Are you gay" etc.

And it's like, when I look back, it's like often I'm kind of prone to conflicting with people at first. It's like if you meet a new guy, and ask him if he's gay straight off the bat then some people will kind of not know how to respond, and some people will kind of seem to try and place what is making them appear gay - some will try to defend etc - some will just brush it off -

Anyway, people that are like "don't misbehave" are generally those that feel like they don't have power or control. They haven't yet learnt that you should encourage good behaviour rather than say that you don't like bad behaviour.

What are they going to do when people misbehave. Say no, and shake their finger. And be like if you misbehave again, I'm going to take (blah) away from you...

unfair, and I wonder how this will influence him in the long run? In the short run it works this way - my daughter loves to meet new people, my son hates any kind of new situation, and gets stressed (thus angry) when we are going out. He needs a lot of support from his sister/parents to be in a good mood in

I think I'm *there* enough that people can meet me, so I don't have to meet them.

such situations. And that again influences the way people meet him. Bad loop. What about conflicts? How does is feel to be "broken" for an SLE? I

What's wrong with that? Having people who support you around you is good isn't it.

agree with Mercs comment about "punishment" working the wrong way, but I can't always be around, and teachers could punish him in school later, if he's questionning their authority. So how will he react to being "broken"? He

At that age they're not likely to. They're more likely to find it "cute".

Maybe he'll react to being broken by... BEING BROKEN... wow... shit... I said it ...

Just because something's broken doesn't mean it can't be mended.

always questions authority. Experiences? Stories? Thoughts? Feelings? I'd love to hear about it, just to understand better now and later.

Why can't you just let things play out.

When I used to over control situations at times, someone brought up "what would happen if you stopped intefering - and so sometimes I'd stop intefering, and just let things play out...

But then, when things didn't work out I wouldn't help. As I didn't want to intefere. UNtil people would be like "don't listen to (blah) (whoever said to stop intefering"

You're always going to have dissenters.

One story: My SLE ex-boyfriend was in the backseat of a car, he was drunk. So was the driver (drunk) and the brother of the driver (in the front seat). The car crashed, and the brother of the driver was thrown out of the car. Before the police/ambulance came, my SLE bf offered to take the place of the driver. So the SLE was arrested and convicted for driving when drunk, and the real driver could go with his brother in the ambulance to the hospital. And take care of his own terrible trauma for having almost killed his brother.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I think it's kind of selfish in a way. People have to be responsible for themselves. Being "too noble" can be bad too.

The SLE then had to live with people finding him a terrible person, even spitting at him once, and they all projected all kinds of shit onto him. You won't believe what they said about him! I was amazed at his nobility in this. He sacrificed so much of his own reputation for a friend, so that the friend could be with his brother in a crisis situation. I think this tells quite a lot about how people judge SLEs before they even know them or their story. (I mean, had I crashed the car when driving drunk, people would feel for me, I think, and they would have wanted to "help me")

Well maybe he for some reason wanted that. Maybe he thought there was a lot of pressure on him to be "good" and for some reason wanted to make life harder for himself. And he has to live with the consequences of his actions.

Also sometimes people lie about this shit. They like to say how they've done noble actions when they haven't.

[Mattie]

My younger sister is an ESTp, and upon reflection, she benefited a lot from going into sports. She used to be rather aggressive when she was around the age of your son, but it was usually when I couldn't be aggressive for myself, so we didn't really have friction until later on. My parents (ESFp mother and INTp father) put her in soccer and she still stays active in it now, and it tired out all of her energy for (seemingly) unnecessary aggressiveness.

This is coming from an ENFp, so of course it's going to be slightly slanted, but my sister was always abrasive and coercive when she wanted something and it wasn't being given to her, and still is up to this day. When, ultimately, she didn't get what she was going for, she resorted with anger, yelling and slamming doors, intentionally being rebellious over small things until something changed. Eventually one of my parents would bend and she would get something, to which I saw fault in.

I would say that when it comes to situations where what they are doing is unacceptable, to fold as firm and consistent as possible. Because my sister didn't act this way everywhere else, and after observing her in different environments, it's like she figured out where all the limits were and what the "rules" are, and if behavior A only yields punishment/nothing positive and it will never change, then she would stop behavior A. But if behavior B sometimes worked out if she pushed hard enough, then she would use it whenever she needed it.

This helped her become a very resourceful person, and whenever we're on the same side of the fence on something, she knew how to work situations to get the desired result. But there was a point where I had to tell her she was rude and abrasive for situations that don't produce a good enough result to merit such behavior. So what I started to do was completely ignore her when she acted that way. I don't agree that ESTps "deserve" to be ostracized at all, but sometimes they do need a firm and harsh example in return to show that what they are doing it pushing too far. So after that, my sister knew to approach me in a more diplomatic manner, or at least not guns blazing and forceful for what she wants. Of course there are parts of our relationship that's faulty on my end, but this isn't about ENFp/ESTp relations.

That was rather ramble-y, hopefully there was something useful in all that

[Sirena]

I would say that when it comes to situations where what they are doing is unacceptable, to fold as firm and consistent as possible. Because my sister didn't act this way everywhere else, and after observing her in different environments, it's like she figured out where all the limits were and what the "rules" are, and if behavior A only yields punishment/nothing positive and it will never change, then she would stop behavior A. But if behavior B sometimes worked out if she pushed hard enough, then she would use it whenever she needed it.

I know what you mean, but just want to point out that just as much, ESTps will easily become disillusioned if their efforts to do well don't seem to be appreciated/acknowledged. So, if behavior A only leads to punishment/nothing positive, they will stop (like you said). The thing is that A could very well be their way of showing they care or whatever. They'll think "well what is the point in being nice to someone if they're still going to turn around and (fill in the blank)". What I'm trying to say is that the original behavior is not always negative and that a lot of the time the outright rebelliousness and inflexibility is a result of what I mentioned, not the cause of origin. They'll think that everyone thinks they're bad people anyway, no matter what they do, so what is the point in acting otherwise.

[betterthan]

Thank you Merc!!!

I like your style, and I agree with most of what you say.

NB! There are no "problems" with the boy, he's a normal, well-behaved kid, extremely positive, active and helpful, and we have a superb relation. I just used him as an example.

I'd like to hear from you and other SLEs how YOU saw the world when you were small (4 - 13 years)? How did you feel when you were in unknown situations (did you also react with anger in any kind of stress)? Also, because many SLEs have an almost aggressive way of moving and looking at times, they will often be treated harder than others from the start. Example - my IEI daughter (the one he hugs in the photo) is met from the start with a sweet tone of voice and smiles whenever she meets new people, while people meet my son with hard words like "don't misbehave" from the start. It's so damn unfair, and I wonder how this will influence him in the long run? In the short run it works this way - my daughter loves to meet new people, my son hates any kind of new situation, and gets stressed (thus angry) when we are going out. He needs a lot of support from his sister/parents to be in a good mood in such situations. And that again influences the way people meet him. Bad loop. What about conflicts? How does is feel to be "broken" for an SLE? I agree with Mercs comment about "punishment" working the wrong way, but I can't always be around, and teachers could punish him in school later, if he's questionning their authority. So how will he react to being "broken"? He always questions authority. Experiences? Stories? Thoughts? Feelings? I'd love to hear about it, just to understand better now and later.

One story: My SLE ex-boyfriend was in the backseat of a car, he was drunk. So was the driver (drunk) and the brother of the driver (in the front seat). The car crashed, and the brother of the driver was thrown out of the car. Before the police/ambulance came, my SLE bf offered to take the place of the driver. So the SLE was arrested and convicted for driving when drunk, and the real driver could go with his brother in the ambulance to the hospital. And take care of his own terrible trauma for having almost killed his brother.

The SLE then had to live with people finding him a terrible person, even spitting at him once, and they all projected all kinds of shit onto him. You won't believe what they said about him! I was amazed at his nobility in this. He sacrificed so much of his own reputation for a friend, so that the friend could be with his brother in a crisis situation. I think this tells quite a lot about how people judge SLEs before they even know them or their story. (I mean, had I crashed the car when driving drunk, people would feel for me, I think, and they would have wanted to "help me")

ARGH. This makes me so upset and angry (it made me cry LOL). It seems obvious to me that most 'anti-social' behaviour is just pain/fear misdirected.
Oh, I can't even reply to this I am so pissed off at the bullshit way some people treat SLEs. I just want to hug all their pain away lol. It must be tough being an SLE kid, I can see how quite a few adults will just most likely assume they are little heartless punks.

Sorry, I don't have anything productive to add. But wow your family sounds awesome and you sound like a great mum ! (Sorry for that too lol).

[Satan]

Thank you again!!

I'm now certain of your SLE-ness. Do you still doubt it?

Well it's all just words, and concepts, and abstractions. How much validity can I really hold to it.

I think SLEs often do. My sister (SLE) is kind of defensive in an aggressive way, I think? So somehow she overreacts even before anything has happened. She's getting better with age...

Mmm

I don't get it, really. I don't find SLEs scary. Unless they are really unhealthy, but any type is scary if they are not in balance. It's normally really easy to see if a person is "dangerous" or "uninviting" or if he/she is just "testing you". And it's equally easy to call them (SLEs) out on their bullshit, unlike many other types (who can get defensive if you do). SLEs normally just laugh, they know they had it coming.

Well the times I'm looking back on I was kind of unbalanced. No-one is ever completely balanced though.

That reminds me, sometimes I've heard people claiming that I was just testing them, like they just "realised".

I don't know what''s considered dangerous.

Yes, but testing limits/authority is not bad in itself. It can be annoying at times, and you have to draw a line and show who decides, but what's wrong in having to explain your decisions/your authority? I'll be a happy parent if my kids learn to think for themselves and not just do as "expected". I don't understand why adults are afraid of KIDS (KIDS!!!) that question their decisions?? Maybe they never learned to think for themselves.... ?

Because they're weak.

Ah... maybe this is what my sister was all about....

The thing is that if you test people too much, it can make some people uncomfortable. But maybe those people have no solidity and should just be dropped anyway.

Exactly...



Nothing wrong with it. Just describing...



lol... Point taken.

And yes.

You're sweet.

I'm not trying to control!!! That's what everybody misunderstood in this thread. I probably expressed myself in a clumsy manner again. My son is charming, I love his personality with all its ups and downs, and I'm not interfering - a lot less than most parents, I think. I still protect him against direct hits (stupid people) of course, but I'm not over protective. I'm more of an observer, and I made this thread to observe some more.... I'm looking forward to seeing him grow up, and I'm not at all trying to "change him", just looking for general clues to "happy development" and to understand more of the way he sees the world. He'll have to learn things himself, I can't live for him. Of course I'll help as much as I can, if he needs me, and I guess understanding him is a key.

Okay, just making sure.

You could say I'm just intrigued by how happenings are connected and how loops are made, and how people react to the behavior of others, etc. That's my motivation for asking all this questions. I'm not looking for "exact" information, I'm not looking for how to change the adults misunderstanding him, I'm not looking for how to change my son into another type, I'm just feeding my brain observations .... or if you will, I'm studying my son...

I'm just fascinated... (nerdy)

How do you think that makes him feel?

I agree fully. He was a moron, but I don't think he had time to really think it through. He just did it, and afterwards, he had to face the consequences.

Foolhardy.

He didn't tell me. I always thought he had been the one driving. It was the real driver who told me after I started dating the SLE.

Well they were all stupid

[Rocket]

Let me see Mimosa .... your 4 year old kid has "leadership abilities" ..... and you claim these are not always valued by society as they should be. That your kid has a temperament that "will not be broken" and somehow this should unconditionally be valued by society in the way it is valued by his mother.

I can only say one thing .... the right to leadership has to be earned. Leadership must offer something others find useful enough to submit to .... otherwise what we have is simple willful behaviour (small kid equivalent - poking other kids in the eye and smashing things or the big kid behaviours -previously hinted at- that can land them in jail).

Don't expect leadership from your 4 year old at this time. Try and show some leadership yourself so as to meet the requirements of both your son and your friends/relatives... This is something that will no doubt be valued .... Otherwise you and your son will set yourselves at odds with society. Just remember a tree that will not bend in the wind is easily broken ... life can be like that too.

[Sirena]

@Rocket: Did you read the rest of the thread? Mimosa has said repeatedly that she doesn't want parental advice.

[Rocket]

@Rocket: Did you read the rest of the thread? Mimosa has said repeatedly that she doesn't want parental advice.

Something's rotten in the state of Denmark!!!

[Rocket]

No problem Mimosa ....... you claim that my assumptions are "off" ... fine but i've simply addressed the issue you raised in your opening statement that your son is not as "welcome" by others to the degree your daugter is because of his SLE behaviours.

But taking yourself out of the equation is never going to convince any thinking person here or elsewhere. I'll tell you why. Just take a look at one of the exemplars you've given about how your child should be handled ........

Another story: My son was throwing the shoes of my sister around the garden last summer, and she told him to stop. He didn't of course, as he didn't know my sister (she lives far away and was here to visit us). She immediately jumped up, and stood in front of him and commanded him to pick up her shoes. He put up an angry face and roared at her with his arms crossed and refused to act. She answered by putting HER arms the same way, looking totally bored by him, bent down and said in a low, threatening/aggressive tone "I know EXACTLY how you feel, I have been there, and it's no fun at all being small, but you know and I know that if I sit on you, you'll hurt and I'll laugh, and I'm big and you are small, and you have to listen, so just get it over with and do as I tell you".

He roared a lot while picking up her shoes, but never questionned her command again.... They were really cute together, in a weird way. My sister knows nothing about Socionics, but still she recognized him as her "kind of person" immediately. That's fascinating as well.

............ What if instead of an offense against your adult sister we have an offense directed against another child (perhaps younger than your son and perhaps out of sight.) How does the "power" confrontation unfold then .... by your son sitting on the victim because he is the BIGGER one that must be obeyed?.....Please ask yourself what lessons/values are you trying to instill in him? "Might is right?"...... If so thats fine but you can't dictate both the attitude and its consequences ..... only the attitude. This is indeed socionics based. The lesson here is that excessive reliance on ones base function (in this case Se) leads to frustration ... well balanced individuals need to develop a repertoire of alternative responses and in your son you might choose to help him develop his Ti so that life does not become a never ending stream of costly Se confrontations.

Your son is only 4 and seems fine ... he needs to be free to experiment to find out what works for him just like all other kids .... and the degree he succeeds in life will be determined by his ability to take in lifes lessons.

[consentingadult]

Could anyone please post a SERIOUS comment on how it feels to be SLE, and how SLE kids develop in a direction that is positive for them - where they can both use their strengths, and develop their weaknesses?

Keirsey Temperament Website

[Rocket]

@ mods
... what this thing about permitting radical editorial changes to the opening question .... makes a bit of a joke about the process of ongoing discussions does it not ?

[tereg]

I'll make a slight adjustment to the title of the thread to what I think this thread is reflecting

[Ezra]

EDITED:
As the quoted text shows, the typical e-type 8 behaviour of
- not wanting to be controlled by anyone, and of
- expressing only anger, even when they really feel fear, hurt or sad, etc.
could easily lead to constant conflicts and misunderstandings between an SLE/E-type 8 child and others, as leader abilities and independence are not always valued in children.

Does anyone have experiences with SLEs growing up? (Both E-type 8 and others) How do they feel when met with anger? When they refuse to be "broken"? Or when they are met with anger and more strictness than other kids whenever they feel bad (hurt, fear, sadness)? How can they - without being broken - find a way to handle situations where they have to "do as they are told with no questions asked" or situations where they preferably should express other feelings than anger? What activities will feel positive for such a child, and what should be avoided, if anything?

I am particularly interested in experiences from SLEs and people with close relations to SLEs.

My mother told me she found it difficult to connect with me as a child. She is most likely IEE.

I always accepted doing things that had a rationale to them. The height of insult, to me, was when someone said "do this" without a reason. If I understood why I was doing what I was doing, okay, the initial anger would be there, but I'd soon come to realise that the action against me was totally just.