Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Two Different Kinds of Ti

  1. #1
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Two Different Kinds of Ti

    I've been looking at various LII descriptions, and I think I've noticed two different kinds of Ti. In an economics class that I took, the textbook classified all economic theories into two categories: normative theories and descriptive theories. A normative theory tells you how things ought to be. In this sense, it is evaluative - it's a form of opinion or judgment. A descriptive theory tells you how things are. In this sense, it has no opinion, it's aim is simply to describe things. I think that I can classify some descriptions of Ti into two similar categories.

    For example, some LII descriptions talk about what I would call evaluative Ti - it is a form of Ti that evaluates the logic of the situation, idea, etc. Consider these descriptions:

    The LII naturally assesses statements, opinions, and actions in terms of conformance to certain principles. These principles may in practice be rules of thumb based on experience, but LIIs will usually appeal to more general, self-evident reasons, if the need arises. The LII is most engaged in communication when he is critically analyzing people's decisions and actions as well as how they generally are or are not consistent with certain pre-established goals.
    They are skilled at understanding, generating, and criticizing logical arguments and instilling their views in the people around them. Their friends know them as people with well-organized thoughts and opinions who know what they think and can elucidate their ideas to others
    Clearly, some aspects of these descriptions involve some form of logical evaluation - this form of Ti is opinionated, judges things, etc.

    Now consider these forms of Ti, which aim not to evaluate the truth of things, but to describe things (and, in this sense, I call this descriptive Ti):

    She understands the essence of a situation by creating a model for this knowledge in her consciousness that corresponds with her experiences. She’s guided by the universal ideas she’s found and comprehended, regardless of others’ opposition.
    Analytical mentality. Ability in all to find a relationship of cause and effect. Propensity to abstract, system thinking. Ability to separate the main thing from the minor. theorizing, propensity to brainwork, construction of abstract models.
    The aim of this kind of Ti is not to evaluate reality, but to model it.

    In conclusion, this does not mean that these are the only two types of Ti, or that this is the only way to categorize Ti, but they seem to be two different themes that appear amongst Ti types. And I've noticed in myself that I tend to look for patterns, models, etc. more than I attempt to evaluate things, so this might be a pattern that could lead to a new subtype theory.

    Jason
    LII

  2. #2
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is nothing terribly new considering that similar patterns can be observed in all of the information elements.

    Fe-egos: Can read the Fe and also try to manipulate it positively or negatively.
    Te-egos: Can evaluate and observe Te, and also how to manipulate it for efficiency.
    Fi-egos: Can read the bonds that exist between people and objects, but they also seek to create and maintain their own system of bonds.

    And so on.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  3. #3
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I agree, Jason. I've written something similar on different uses of the functions:

    (from article at my wikisocion user page, http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ught_to_pursue )

    "It may be useful to differentiate between different uses of the IM elements:

    (+)* positive appraisals, praise, and enthusiastic assessments coming from the IM element
    (-) negative assessments, criticism, etc.
    (0) neutral, matter-of-fact statements concerning this aspect of reality
    (H) humor rooted in the IM element
    * these are unrelated to the so-called "plus/minus" signs used by some socionists.

    Note that so-called "PoLR hits" concern only negative assessments ("You don't know what you're talking about." "Can't you take better care of yourself?" etc.). OR, alternatively, people with "sore" 4th functions might tend to perceive all but the most obvious and heartfelt praise as negative assessments. The suggestive function responds differently even to negative assessments: "well then, help me if I'm not doing it right!"
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

  4. #4
    MysticSonic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,993
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm not really certain to what extent they can really be considered two different types of Ti rather than two manifestations of the same function. Like Logos says, it appears to be more that these are merely two different aspects of the same function.

    Also, your last bit that characterizes your behavior as a more descriptive type of Ti seems to not even really characterize the act of describing at all. Noting patterns and searching for new phenomenon seems to be much more directly related with Ne and may show a focus in you on the Ne aspects of things. This to me would make sense, of course, in regards to you being LII. That is, of course, if that's really the process that is occuring within you, a process to which I can't say I hold any real objection.

    But, yes, the problem I have with this idea is that it really is "nothing new" and is just noting that the functions manifest themselves in rather broad, and most probably interlapping ways.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

  5. #5
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You can argue all you want about whether they are manifested in most Ti types, or whether they are distinct subgroups. The only way this can be proven is empirically; no amount of arguing will give the answer. Further, I don't understand why you say that it is "nothing new"? I've never heard of it before. Show me where you've heard of it. And even if it isn't anything that significant, isn't it simply interesting to see new possibilities?

    Jason
    Last edited by jason_m; 03-31-2009 at 07:25 AM.
    LII

  6. #6
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    You can argue all you want about whether they are manifested in most Ti types, or whether they are distinct subgroups. The only way this can be proven is empirically; no amount of arguing will give the answer. Further, I don't understand why you say that it is "nothing new"? I've never heard of it before. Show me where you've heard of it. And even if it isn't anything that significant, isn't it simply interesting to see new possibilities?
    There is no need to get up in arms. It's just an obvious quality of type and information element descriptions: the aspect you use to perceive and the aspect you use to manipulate. What exactly is there to hear about it? Have you not have picked up on this before? I am still not sure how this is makes for seeing new possibilities. But what is gained by labeling it?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  7. #7
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    There is no need to get up in arms. It's just an obvious quality of type and information element descriptions: the aspect you use to perceive and the aspect you use to manipulate.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to sound upset.

    But what is gained by labeling it?
    I was thinking that some people might be better at perceiving and others at manipulating - leading to a new notion of subtype. (Unless you're talking about the difference between leading and creative functions, which was not what I was trying to get at - I was referring to differences amongst leading functions.) However, if this has been done before, then it is somewhat redundant...

    Jason
    LII

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe.
    Posts
    56
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I feel related to your theory of Descriptive Ti...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •