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Thread: Is it typical of ILIs-INTps to excel at math?

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    Default Is it typical of ILIs-INTps to excel at math?

    Many people seem to think ILI's are the typical math people, but is this really so?

    I know some people (famous ones but also friends) who have studied math etc, but most of them seem to be LII or LSI, with an occasion ILI.

    Also Socionics puts ILI more into the economic spectrum rather than the scientific one.

    What's your info on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Many people seem to think ILI's are the typical math people, but is this really so?

    I know some people (famous ones but also friends) who have studied math etc, but most of them seem to be LII or LSI, with an occasion ILI.

    Also Socionics puts ILI more into the economic spectrum rather than the scientific one.

    What's your info on this?
    I've wondered about this too and questioned my typing of people once or twice bc of it. In the end I don't really think being ILI = being naturally adept at math, at all.

    My best friend is ILI, and he does not like math [or physics, fwiw], and I have another good ILI friend who also dislikes math. Both of them started college with the intention of going into computer programming, and both of them changed their concentrations bc of all the math involved. [This, btw, is really a shame since they're both quite brilliant people who are great at computer programming bc they've taught themselves....].

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    Math is too broad a field...

    Idk, the INTp I know is good at math.

    They have a far different approach to economics however.

    Gamma NT's are very anecdotal, statistical, and factual. Alpha NT's are more interested in economic theory, principles, and ties to economics and philosophy imo.

    Of course there is crossover, but yeah.

    Just look at the Mises institute anarchists vs. the up and coming vlogging ones. You can see the Gamma-Alpha difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    I've wondered about this too and questioned my typing of people once or twice bc of it. In the end I don't really think being ILI = being naturally adept at math, at all.

    My best friend is ILI, and he does not like math [or physics, fwiw], and I have another good ILI friend who also dislikes math. Both of them started college with the intention of going into computer programming, and both of them changed their concentrations bc of all the math involved. [This, btw, is really a shame since they're both quite brilliant people who are great at computer programming bc they've taught themselves....].
    I recognize this.

    I like documentaries about the universe etc, but when it comes to math formula's etc, I'm not interested anymore. Economy, same stuff, I like to know the big picture, but not the boring math. I've learned programming myself too, just a bit though. Logic and creating is easy.

    The ILI's that I personally know: 1 does some kind of spiritual yoga, 1 is lawyer, 2 are psychologists.

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    The ILI I know doesn't like math. When he took the proficiencies, math was the only test he didn't pass on the first try.

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    And quess what, I know LII who isn't keen on math .But he's Ne subtype..
    I actually don't think it's so much type related. There is a pattern of course, but I've seen different types into different areas of science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forgetmenot View Post
    And quess what, I know LII who isn't keen on math .But he's Ne subtype..
    I actually don't think it's so much type related. There is a pattern of course, but I've seen different types into different areas of science.
    Yes, you have a point there.

    But it's more the bias that there is about ILI's.

    But do you think it's fair to assume this is the correct order of ranking of people who've studied math at a university?
    1: LII
    2: LSI
    3: ILI
    4: SLI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    The ILI I know doesn't like math. When he took the proficiencies, math was the only test he didn't pass on the first try.
    Do you also know what tests he was best at?

    just curious.

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    Jarno, saw your message on the Newton page and decided to do a combined response here. Never really thought about that, but I guess it does make sense. I don't think I have ever met an ILI irl, but it would make sense maths being a domain. I know I have always enjoyed it (though that could be because I am good at it: a bit of the whole chicken or egg issue). Sometimes it was because I needed to use it for a purpose, but mostly it was the elegance of it all, without a specific need for a definitive outcome but rather just for the enjoyment of the thought process. I don't see that being an ILI trait. has never made complete sense to me as a function and what exactly it pertains to, but does. It seems to be perfect for memorisation (huge simplification) rather than dealing with rules/logic. There is a pragmatism to it that would deny enjoyment of maths in itself. Maybe the Newton typing may need a re-think on this basis...
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    I like documentaries about the universe etc, but when it comes to math formula's etc, I'm not interested anymore. Economy, same stuff, I like to know the big picture, but not the boring math. I've learned programming myself too, just a bit though. Logic and creating is easy.
    I am no different in that respect. You've got to consider that this could hold for the majority of all people, if not simply all people. Math is tricky. It's known to be such. It's no different to us INTjs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Yes, you have a point there.

    But it's more the bias that there is about ILI's.

    But do you think it's fair to assume this is the correct order of ranking of people who've studied math at a university?
    1: LII
    2: LSI
    3: ILI
    4: SLI
    My personal order would be like (people I somehow admire of their math skills)
    1.LII
    2.ILE
    3.ILI

    But I know ISFp who's really good at math and even ESFj being a great programmer. There are differences in how they process the information, what they use it for but in general it's more up to the level of their intelligence that to type.

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    I'm an ESE, and I do maths.

    It's clearly a field for Sensers, especially Rational ones.

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    I actually love guys who are good at math, it's so stupid but I'm sexually attracted to intelligence, not the learned facts but people who are - so to say - bright.

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    My father is ILI and is really good at maths. He loves riddles and is good at explaining. It's like he won't rest until he knows the answer . But it's similar with my SEI uncle.

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    For the record, I do end up typing a lot of people that have math-like approach to thinking as INTps.

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    i used to be the annoying kid in class who said the math answers before everyone else like it was some kind of race and really didnt care that everyone wanted me to shut the fuck up

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    I talked w my friend [the guy ILI] and I have some amendments to make to what I wrote earlier....

    He said that he does like math, he’s just not that good at it. When I asked him what he likes about it he listed a bunch of practical reasons: he uses math/formulas in programming, it’s always right, you can make a math equation out of pretty much anything, etc. I asked whether he ever did or thought he would like to study math for fun, if no practical purposes were in sight, and he said that he probably wouldn’t bc he doesn’t see the point.

    Also, I take back what I said about him not liking physics - what I was remembering was when we were in high school and he hated his physics class. But I asked him, and he actually likes physics a lot. He said he bought the Grand Theft Auto game purely bc of the way the physics were done [apparently everything physics-related was supposed to be pretty accurate], but he stopped playing it bc he couldn’t put up w the lack of realism in other areas [people’s heads staying attached even after being shot multiple times]

    I wonder whether other ILIs relate to this, especially the game bit...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    I talked w my friend [the guy ILI] and I have some amendments to make to what I wrote earlier....

    He said that he does like math, he’s just not that good at it. When I asked him what he likes about it he listed a bunch of practical reasons: he uses math/formulas in programming, it’s always right, you can make a math equation out of pretty much anything, etc. I asked whether he ever did or thought he would like to study math for fun, if no practical purposes were in sight, and he said that he probably wouldn’t bc he doesn’t see the point.

    Also, I take back what I said about him not liking physics - what I was remembering was when we were in high school and he hated his physics class. But I asked him, and he actually likes physics a lot. He said he bought the Grand Theft Auto game purely bc of the way the physics were done [apparently everything physics-related was supposed to be pretty accurate], but he stopped playing it bc he couldn’t put up w the lack of realism in other areas [people’s heads staying attached even after being shot multiple times]

    I wonder whether other ILIs relate to this, especially the game bit...?
    Yes I like formula's for programming, but that are not really big math things.

    That physics part is a bit strange for me. Comparing science with a simulator...

    I like GTA because of the simulation, being in another world. And I like the realism, in this case meaning, not as fantasy like in the World Of Warcraft game.

    Do you know which classes he liked and/or was good at in high school?

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    I think all the maths teachers I had were either ENTps or ISFps
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Yes I like formula's for programming, but that are not really big math things.

    That physics part is a bit strange for me. Comparing science with a simulator...

    I like GTA because of the simulation, being in another world. And I like the realism, in this case meaning, not as fantasy like in the World Of Warcraft game.

    Do you know which classes he liked and/or was good at in high school?
    I don't remember what classes he liked in particular, but I think he was pretty good in algebra classes. I know he disliked [or at least was not good at and complained about] calculus a lot.

    Referring back to what I said earlier, I think it's kind of a shame that he didn't go into programming as he's awesome at it and does programming for his job now, even though his degree is in a totally different field. One thing I really admire about the ILIs I know is that they can just open a book on computer languages, study it, learn ALL of it, and apply it to what they want to do. How they have the patience to sit there and do all of that is beyond me....
    Last edited by female; 03-26-2009 at 07:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    One thing I really admire about the ILIs I know is that they can just open a book on computer languages, study it, learn ALL of it, and apply it to what they want to do. How they have the patience to sit there and do all of that is beyond me....
    I used to be able to do that, when I got enough time (highschool).

    While now I'm working I need every bit of spare time just to relax. Something with lazyness and such :-)

    Thanks for your info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    I don't remember what classes he liked in particular, but I think he was pretty good in algebra classes. I know he disliked [or at least was not good at and complained about] calculus a lot. In college, it was doing poorly in Calculus II that led him to change his major.

    Referring back to what I said earlier, I think it's kind of a shame that he didn't go into programming as he's awesome at it and does programming for his job now, even though his degree is in a totally different field. One thing I really admire about the ILIs I know is that they can just open a book on computer languages, study it, learn ALL of it, and apply it to what they want to do. How they have the patience to sit there and do all of that is beyond me....
    That does sound incredible. Even with things I enjoy, I get bored with the repetition that mastery requires.
    LII?

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    "Math" is a bit too broad in my opinion, especially at university. Applied math (statistics, and the kind of math people quit non-mathematical subjects over) is very methodical and formulaic, while pure math (crazy stuff with scary symbols) is a lot more abstract. Sitting an integral calculus exam in first year uni is extremely far removed from writing a doctoral thesis on number theory.

    So really, I think there's a place in math for almost everyone But of the people I know, any type can do well in a math exam, but (huge generalisation here) the pure mathematicians tend to be Alpha NTs who wear things like Klein bottle hats and holey jumpers. I seem to recall a higher proportion of ILIs in stats, but I avoided statistics like the plague so I can't say for sure.
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    I'm somewhat good at math, but not so good that I could succesfully study it as a major in university. The difficulty is that I can't conceptualise the pure formulas as anything. And I don't have very good idea about at what direction I should go with the formulas.

    I probably would be more interested in math if I was lot better at it.

    And I wish was, since I need it. Now I've been strugling with this formula, that I need to solve for a project, where I try make a neural network with synapses that simulate biological neurons. The formula probably isn't even that difficult, I've just have forgotten what I have learned.
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    My ILI cousin is a math teacher.
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    I'm Alpha NT. I find most theoretical math to be extremely exciting when compared to the applied stuff (like memorizing and applying some algorithm, first year calculus, etc). I also enjoy the the philosophy of math. It's honestly like the most fascinating subject for me.

    I seriously doubt being good at math is type related, and believe interest-in only partially related, but how about this for an experiment:

    Corral a bunch of not-so-good Alpha NTs and teach them the meaning of the theoretical symbols in normal language, their acquired degree of proficiency may outstrip other types on average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Many people seem to think ILI's are the typical math people, but is this really so?
    I'm an ILI. I majored in math in college, and I'm more or less a mathematician by heart, if not by vocation. Many of my math professors were ILIs. Most other ILIs I know are non-mathematician. One's a geologist who hates math, one lady is a lawyer, one guy is an actuary.

    And when looking at famous current and past mathematicians (Conway, Witten, Saharon Shelah, Godel, Gauss, etc) it seems to me that there's probably a little more alphas than gammas.

    This may be due to other things than type per se, though. A disproportionate number of accomplished people are affiliated with certain universities, it may be that "fitting in" there may have something to do with getting accomplished.

    But I don't believe for a second that a strong Sensory person may accomplish much in math, except for memorizing a large number of theorems discovered by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by incognito View Post
    too much structure in math to be an attractant to ILIs. ... Perhaps it depends on the math speciality.
    And also the approach. One can learn quite a lot by focusing on abstract ideas, pictures, visual "movies", etc rather than mainly on formal written expressions, as is currently done.

    Of course, in the end it's rather hopeless to live without the latter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    the correct order of ranking of people who've studied math at a university?
    1: LII
    2: LSI
    3: ILI
    4: SLI
    Depends on a lot of factors. Not only scientists, but also engineers often have to at least minor in math. The various engineering disciplines in particular wary wrt the distribution of types they attract. The same goes for science: Biologists, chemists, solid state physicists, theoretical physicists and set theorists (Set theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) seem to me to be rather different breeds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    I'm an ESE, and I do maths. It's clearly a field for Sensers, especially Rational ones.
    Ok. I'm curious what a strong S type would make of ideas like topoi ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backgro...f_topos_theory ), the Zermelo-Fraenkel foundation of set theory ( Zermelo?Fraenkel set theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), and axiomatic set theories in general ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiomatic_set_theories).

    But I'm afraid I know the answer already ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_abstract_nonsense ) ...


    Quote Originally Posted by forgetmenot View Post
    I actually love guys who are good at math, it's so stupid but I'm sexually attracted to intelligence, not the learned facts but people who are - so to say - bright.
    Wish people where I live were more like that ...


    Quote Originally Posted by forgetmenot View Post
    My father ... loves riddles ... he won't rest until he knows the answer.
    That could be related to math or whatever as a subject. But doesn't it at least equally point at enjoying victory in facing a challenge, which may be a common trait among different types?


    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    typing a lot of people that have math-like approach to thinking as INTps.
    Hm. It's true INTps expose their Te function to the world, but their inside is more non-rational Ni. Ni is about wallowing in both foggy and clear information like a pig in a pond. With INTps, the weaker Te function tames the Ni, and brings the few things of value found into daylight.

    So I would say most NiTe's have more of a stereotypical "woolhead" and/or "crackpot" approach to thinking than most others. The exception is of course those with strong Tes and those who have learned thru bitter experience to hide the non-rational side well.


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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    I avoided statistics like the plague so I can't say for sure.
    The way statistics is taught and practiced borders on criminal. It's infected with a "objective" bias that tries hard to hide that statistics is an art rather than a science.
    Last edited by ragnar; 03-27-2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason: wrote beta where i meant gamma.,trying to make wikipedia links work
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    I can't speak for ILIs, but I would suppose that I'm LII and I've always been good at math. I've gotten at least an A in every math course I've ever taken, including seven math courses at the university level. I also like the idea of economics - the reduction of human behaviour to mathematical formulae.

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    ILI's I know seem to be really good at history and politics..

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    ILI's I know seem to be really good at history and politics..
    History... interesting, I didn't know that.

    Politics yeah, I talk way to often about that :-)

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    The way maths were taught at schools of my country was always towards "pure" maths rather than applied maths

    I see pure mathematics as more of an area fit to LIIs. As a student, I found the abstract nature of pure maths so far removed from reality that I couldn't get myself interested in them

    I did tend to do better on applied maths and statistics, but again, these areas were few and far between amid courses dominated by this "pure maths" approach. The result was that as a student I grew to rather dislike maths and only forced myself to deal with them when I absolutely had to .
    Like when I HAD to excel in maths exams if I wanted to gain an entry into the business department at the Uni of my choice. Right after I gained entry, I consistently ignored and repeatedly failed my only Uni maths module, which again had a "pure maths" flavour. I passed all other 48 modules over 4 years and still left had maths left at the end, to complete my degree - again, I forced myself to study maths to get my degree, after I was tired of being a Uni student and wanted to move on ;-)

    As for economics, it is a particular approach to this science that aims at the reduction of everything to a formula. Though this is the dominant approach in our time, it is neither the only one, nor the one that will actually survive (see the fiasco with market and trading models surrounding the banking crisis - all built with this approach as their foundation)

    For more regarding this particular "Scientistic" approach to economics and its limitations, you can read this

    Friedrich August von Hayek - Prize Lecture

    I do find economics fascinating, along with history, politics etc. I like them because they are both "real world" and contain elements that can certainly be demonstrated, but not be completely described and captured by a mathematical equation, which is what the scientistic approach to them claims to achieve
    INTJ [mbti]
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    I'm good at math; I"M GOOD AT MATH!!!!!!1!!!
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    I'm not ILI, but I will add my experience. I mostly like math, especially when I am given enough time to understand deeply the implications, prove all the theorems, etc. I need to be able to have a systematic interpretation of the field of math I am working in in order to be good at it; it takes time to reach it, but when I do, I very much excel, being able to solve problems in many different ways. However, when I do not (sometimes due to a bad teacher, sometimes due to the fact that I want to do something else, thus I'm not able to study as deeply), I tend to perform somewhat poorly, since I am not really "getting" the material, just applying by rote.
    When I am very rushed (some examinations in university had very strict time-policy, due to the risk of cheating), however, I sometimes commit some trivial but key mistakes (like not remembering to bring a - into the next line). If I'm not too rushed, I do quite fine in algebra too. When I was a kid, I used to be a real whiz, performing 4-digit calculations in my head; then, in high school, I was mostly busy with sports, so I didn't took it as seriously as before; now I am somewhat back on my feet.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Well think about the nature of the irrational. Does this ILI suck at math because he doesn't like it and therefore puts no effort into it, or does this ILI not like math because he is no good at it?

    I for one have been severely complimented on my math skills by gradeschool teachers, because I was good at it, but I never really liked it. I could have done it, gone on to master all the maths and learn all those equations. However I had a different calling, so I paid no attention to math and I might be good at it still, by this point, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're going to find out, does it? I'd say it is skill, but as an irrational it is definitely more of a decision: what I will master at and what I won't.

    I think rational types will spread around their use of skills to better mitigate their goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    History... interesting, I didn't know that.

    Politics yeah, I talk way to often about that :-)
    I thought was about a detachment from worldly affairs. So define politics? Oh ok, you're a subtype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post


    I thought was about a detachment from worldly affairs.
    It's a slightly different interpretation, more like this.

    is about detachment from superficial affairs.

    So it's not about: is the curtain hanging straight in front of the window? or how does this sweater match my pants?

    But it's about complex abstracts matters like: is democracy a form of dictatorship of the majority in a society? (so here I already go talking about politics...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    It's a slightly different interpretation, more like this.

    is about detachment from superficial affairs.

    So it's not about: is the curtain hanging straight in front of the window? or how does this sweater match my pants?

    But it's about complex abstracts matters like: is democracy a form of dictatorship of the majority in a society? (so here I already go talking about politics...)
    I kind of see what you mean now. Like it's a choice. It's not really affecting you but you are observing it because you feel inclined that it could affect you.

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    I was a math (and economics) major in college and my ILI sister was also a math major. We had one class together and we approached problems from very different viewpoints. She was very good at studying and memorizing different methods used to solve problems where as I focused on finding the right answer (process vs result possibly?). And apparently her method worked better because she generally outperformed me on most of the tests (yes, that is painful to admit). So I would say that ILIs can be very strong in math. (She's now an actuary.)

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