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Thread: The Need To Know (Notes)

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    Default The Need To Know (Notes)

    Had a conversation with my INFp friend. We had difficulties because once again, I couldn’t understand what he was saying. During his attempts to translate from INFp to ENFp (gotta give him credit for patience and effort!!!), we got into how it is that I understand information given to me...or something like that. So, I had to go home and think about it some to see if I could make it easier for him. Here’s my notes on my thoughts. Please remember that this is not about problem solving, nor my natural mode of functioning. This is about putting in effort to understand something foreign to me. A summary in plainer english is located at the very end. Comments welcome, as usual.

    Blocks and Forms of Information
    * I prefer blocks of information I can pull out of “known” previous experiences.
    * if no previous experience with a noun/concept, then meaning is derived from any known relational predicates.
    * if no previous experience with a predicate, then a noun-predicate block is created and meaning derived from further known blocks.
    * if there are too many unknown blocks then the information is incomprehensible and/or I’m unable to internalize it.
    * Example: Getting through school, I was able to memorize a form or the location of a block (in the book or on my notes), but since much of it could not be internalized, it was soon forgotten. This is how I was capable of being an honor roll student without actually having learned anything.

    Qualifying Information
    After information has been placed into a form, cross-check for quality of info.
    * Cross-check between this form and other possible known forms.
    * Cross-check between this instance and other possible known instances.
    * Cross-check premises with other possible premises.
    * Cross-check conclusion with other possible conclusions.
    Thus producing a continuous stream of “or”.
    Example: Person says X + Y = A.
    I ask What about X + Y = A or B? (or X + Y can = B too.)
    Why not X + Y + Z? etc.

    The Need to Know
    The more internalized blocks, the more one knows, and the more one is capable of knowing. The great thing is that we don’t have to experience all instances and all forms ourselves. We are capable of seeing a form in the expressed instance of others and also extract blocks of experiences. The more often the block occurs, the stronger the internalization, thus increasing our knowledge base.
    In English: The experiences of one individual are generally fairly limited in content. So limiting ourselves to our own experiences limits our knowledge base. Seeking out the stories of others and extracting experiences from them and questioning them about their experiences, thoughts, and feelings increases our knowledge base. Reciprocating with our own stories of experiences, thoughts, and feelings is done in the hopes of offering info that may increase the knowledge base of others.
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    Edited for gayness.

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    My thought processes are like neural networks.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Your thought processes are like abstract algebra.
    It is interesting insn't it?

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    [nonsequiter]

    excellent avatar, pedro

    Charisma's one of my favorites (wait, it's not Adriana Lima, is it? I like them both, whatever the case)

    Are you strangely attracted to her powerful facial expressions too?
    some aren't so great, but some are.


    [/nonsequiter]
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Re: The Need To Know (Notes)

    Assuming I understood the point then from ISTp point of view (and duality relations point of view)...

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Example: Person says X + Y = A.
    I ask What about X + Y = A or B? (or X + Y can = B too.)
    For me this is not very useful. This is my main strength. So it could even be annoying, hehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Why not X + Y + Z? etc.
    This would be extremely useful. This is my main weakness. I would probably love this.

    I keep this short in case I'm talking about a different thing you had in mind

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    Default Re: The Need To Know (Notes)

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Assuming I understood the point then from ISTp point of view (and duality relations point of view)...
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Example: Person says X + Y = A.
    I ask What about X + Y = A or B? (or X + Y can = B too.)
    For me this is not very useful. This is my main strength. So it could even be annoying, hehe.
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Why not X + Y + Z? etc.
    This would be extremely useful. This is my main weakness. I would probably love this.

    I keep this short in case I'm talking about a different thing you had in mind
    I just reread the above part regarding X+Y=A... I didn't mean "what is it about X+Y that make it A"...I meant that X+Y can = A..but sometimes it can = B too. For example....Given Situation X happening with Situation Y, Action A will occur....but in many cases, Action B can occur instead.

    I am told that my questions fall under Semantical arguing. Semantics is considered a waste of time by many. Yet in my mind, I am just trying to clarify what is being said from other possible interpretations.

    Some have also asked that if a person is so busy asking these questions, how can they get anything done? Yet I cannot take action unless I'm clear in what action I am to take. (Multiple interpretations can be a pain at times.) I think that in this case, it's one difference between pro-active and reactive types.
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    Are you sure this doesn't describe what everyone does when conversing with a type in partial/full conflict with them? Your arguments seem what people do when criticizing a proposition in conflict with their own understanding. My INFj friend does this with my theories, and I do it with others in a likewise fashion.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Are you sure this doesn't describe what everyone does when conversing with a type in partial/full conflict with them? Your arguments seem what people do when criticizing a proposition in conflict with their own understanding. My INFj friend does this with my theories, and I do it with others in a likewise fashion.
    Good question. But this is something I do even if my initial interpretation agrees with them. It's like...seeing multiple possible meanings of what they are saying..and trying to narrow it down to the one they meant.
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    but he is asking if it is applicable outside of the context of being unable to transfer information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    but he is asking if it is applicable outside of the context of being unable to transfer information.
    Hmm, I'm not sure I am understanding what is being asked then. He had said "partial/full conflict" which lead me to answer what I answered.

    I tried answering your interpretation of his question, and I can't. I'm not sure what "it" is referring to.

    ***
    It has just been translated for me that the question is asking if I am trying to determine meaning from what the person says or if I am arguing that their's is or might by some other meaning. And if determining meaning, why would it matter that X+Y could also =B.

    The answer to that is that, most often, I am trying to determine their meaning. I believe that arguing with people to prove some point would actually counteract my need to expand my knowledge base.

    There are, however, some exceptions to this:
    1) Person says X+Y=A. And A is limiting person's options (in a negative way). Somewhere, I've come across X+Y=B and B expands options (in a potentially positive way). In my efforts to help the person expand their own knowledge base, I will tell a story in which X+Y=B, or express my belief that X+Y=B in such a way as to leave it to the person to accept/reject the option of B as valid for them.
    2) There are, unfortunately, a few limited context times when I will agressively push that X+Y can =B. This usually only occurs when I feel compelled to defend someone who is not present to defend themselves.

    ***
    Now go ahead and tell me that I again misinterpreted what is being asked for.
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    You are both crazy.

    Anyway, Ann, I am arguing that your thought processes in their current abstract form are not unique. However, if you were to say that you aren't actively defending a viewpoint of your own but rather just passing information around, then they could be stratified and make sense for ENFp behavior.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    ...I am arguing that your thought processes in their current abstract form are not unique...
    Considering that each type has and utilizes (though they may deny it) each of the functions, I would be surprised if any type’s thought process was completely unique. The difference, I believe is in which direction the functions are directed, how the other functions modify it, and perhaps even the degrees of each aspect of the process.

    For example, the ways and degrees in which an NiFe utilizes form (Te) and symbols/signals (Ti?) will differ from how an NeFi will use them, as well as an TiNe, SiTe, etc. Some types seek information reduction, others expansion. Some seek quantity, others quality. The list goes on.


    ..Your arguments seem like what people do when criticizing a proposition in conflict with their own understanding...
    This statement alone can be interpreted at least 2 ways,
    *1) criticizing as in arguing against
    *2) critiquing as in determining validity
    Also, this statement can imply at least two differing directions
    *1) to prove a point
    *2) to enable understanding

    In interpreting that one statement, I could easily get 4 differing meanings out of it. I tried one, it didn’t seem to work, so I tried another. Here are two of the extremes:
    1) A person who thrives on competition, especially intellectual competition, will likely take the route of arguing against to prove a point.
    2) A person who thrives on mutual gain will likely take the route of helping to determine validity to enable understanding.
    (One guess as to which category you generally fit into, and which one I generally fit into. :wink: )


    However, if you were to say that you aren’t actively defending a viewpoint of your own but rather just passing information around, then they could be stratified and make sense for ENFp behavior.
    The original post of mine was NOT written in such a way as to prove any point, much less uniqueness in process.
    The original post was written specifically to explain to the INFp mentioned that I require instances of experiences with a concept before we can even hope for me to understand some of what he and I have talked about. It is also informing him of what I am likely to do with the information he attempts to give me.
    The original post was posted in the forum that I might share these personal insights/understandings for any others who may also find use in it.

    How much more ENFp-ish can it get?
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    Default Re: The Need To Know (Notes)

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    The Need to Know
    The more internalized blocks, the more one knows, and the more one is capable of knowing. The great thing is that we don’t have to experience all instances and all forms ourselves. We are capable of seeing a form in the expressed instance of others and also extract blocks of experiences. The more often the block occurs, the stronger the internalization, thus increasing our knowledge base.
    In English: The experiences of one individual are generally fairly limited in content. So limiting ourselves to our own experiences limits our knowledge base. Seeking out the stories of others and extracting experiences from them and questioning them about their experiences, thoughts, and feelings increases our knowledge base. Reciprocating with our own stories of experiences, thoughts, and feelings is done in the hopes of offering info that may increase the knowledge base of others.

    So now do you guys get what I'm talking about when I say

    "Living unlimited"

    ?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Re: The Need To Know (Notes)

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    So now do you guys get what I'm talking about when I say

    "Living unlimited"

    ?
    Hmmm, when have you said that? (yes, i'm interested, no i'm not being sarcastic/argumentive)
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    Edited for gayness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    When I was first trying to understand socionics, I thought that maybe it reflected in the ways that people think on a basic level.

    I am not so sure it is that simple anymore.
    Take away much of the mbti-ish traits, view the functions as verbs not adj/nouns, and it starts making more sense....at least to me it does. Cleared up a heck of a lot of confusion I had. It's been a process of continuous refinement, though.
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