Welp, I'm incapable of intimacy

[Banana Pancakes]

And with all your observing people and trying to define someone's personality or "observing the reality of people's motivations and actions", YOU STILL DON'T KNOW SHIT. Here's your problem. You focus too much on wanting to enjoy life, that you miss it. You can't enjoy it because you are so worried that you won't. I got along with xxx so well because he actually opened up to me first. I don't know why I felt so comfortable around him, but I'm not going to apologize for it.
PS. I wasn't dating that asshole while you were there.

So today I finally had the conversation with this chick and realized she would never respect me enough to love me. I also realized that my duals really do understand how terrible I am at SiFe and that I'm incapable of intimacy.

I can't open up to people. I don't even think I have feelings most of the time. The reason I can't establish a long term relationship with anyone is that I'm never comfortable enough to open up to them, I wait for them to do so first. Here not even my dual wanted to open up to me.

To be completely honest, you were somewhere in the middle, as I really enjoyed spending time with you, but was, I suppose in hindsight, waiting until I felt comfortable to open up to you, and possibly have conversations not revolving around song lyrics. Or maybe I was waiting for you to open up to me. I don't know why I never really opened up to you, I know a lot of it had to do with the way I was back then, which is pretty different from the person I am right now.

Edit: this isn't someone on this site, I just thought the quotes would be helpful.

[Brilliand]

Hmm... I think there are some parts of the relationship that you could have managed yourself. Under Model T, your constructivist nature means that you would determine when emotions are brought into play; I imagine this would manifest as some half-assed attempt that the ISFp responds to with real emotions. Well, maybe that's it.

That first quote reminds me of the unhealthy 7 description. If you're a 7, have a look at the Enneagram 7 growth recommendations and see if they help. Although the 7's need sounds sort of like , I'm not sure this is something an ISFp can do for you. Maybe she can help you along, if you keep her nearby while you help yourself.

If you aren't a Seven, do you have any idea where "you can't enjoy it because you are so worried that you won't" came from?

[Wynch]

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Screw it. I'm going to be a hermit.

[tereg]

I feel more depressed after reading this thread.

[buckland]

Right there with you. Pretty sure I screwed up what would have been a pretty sweet relationship with an ESE because of the inability to correctly deal with intimacy (that sounds very 'robotic' but I can't explain it any better).

[Creepy-male]

Awww.

Look on the bright side, ethical males are even worse misfits.

*throws alphahugs around the room*

Duality isn't magical, unfortunately.

[Wynch]

Awww.

Look on the bright side, ethical males are even worse misfits.

*throws alphahugs around the room*

Duality isn't magical, unfortunately.

How about logical females? Guys get all up in your emotional grill and you just want them to btfo.

[tereg]

How about logical females? Guys get all up in your emotional grill and you just want them to btfo.

I appreciate the logical females.

Trust me.

[Wynch]

But are you ready for marathon running?

[tereg]

But are you ready for marathon running?

I might not be that great at initiative or motivation. But what I lack in those I make up in patience and understanding.

[calenwen]

I can't open up to people. I don't even think I have feelings most of the time. The reason I can't establish a long term relationship with anyone is that I'm never comfortable enough to open up to them, I wait for them to do so first. Here not even my dual wanted to open up to me.

Sometimes it just takes people a really long time to feel comfortable enough to open up. Two of my relationships have been with guys (ILE, ILI) that both told me that "they've never opened up" to anyone before, never been in love, etc. but eventually both of these things happened in both relationships. It just took about a year. (:
Honestly, I don't think it's good to rush into being all emotionally intimate with someone. If you take it slow and are patient, eventually you will reach these points, you know? And I would imagine that a SEI would be the first to initiate opening up (with time), so you wouldn't have to worry about taking the initiative there.

I'm curious how long you knew this ISFp before you had the above-mentioned conversation...?

[Wynch]

Well what I really meant is that if you're going to run a marathon it has less to do with persistence and drive and more to do with understanding how to run for a long time. Some people create emotional sprints, others of us are marathons. In a sprint you can see the end in sight and you have to run hard and fast to get there before anyone else. In a marathon if you start too fast you won't make it far enough in the race to even see the end. You'll wonder if you were even racing or if it was worth the amount of energy and effort and persistence it took to get as far as you did. But if you understand how to start slow and recognize when it's time to pick up the pace then you have a way better chance of making it to the finish line.

[Banana Pancakes]

Hmm... I think there are some parts of the relationship that you could have managed yourself. Under Model T, your constructivist nature means that you would determine when emotions are brought into play; I imagine this would manifest as some half-assed attempt that the ISFp responds to with real emotions. Well, maybe that's it.

That first quote reminds me of the unhealthy 7 description. If you're a 7, have a look at the Enneagram 7 growth recommendations and see if they help. Although the 7's need sounds sort of like , I'm not sure this is something an ISFp can do for you. Maybe she can help you along, if you keep her nearby while you help yourself.

If you aren't a Seven, do you have any idea where "you can't enjoy it because you are so worried that you won't" came from?

To be sure, I was never comfortable enough around her to prompt those things very aggressively, but I did try to prompt them.

Enneagram...yeah I'm like a 6w7 or something. What she said is 100% true though. I couldn't have said it any better.

[Banana Pancakes]

Sometimes it just takes people a really long time to feel comfortable enough to open up. Two of my relationships have been with guys (ILE, ILI) that both told me that "they've never opened up" to anyone before, never been in love, etc. but eventually both of these things happened in both relationships. It just took about a year. (:
Honestly, I don't think it's good to rush into being all emotionally intimate with someone. If you take it slow and are patient, eventually you will reach these points, you know? And I would imagine that a SEI would be the first to initiate opening up (with time), so you wouldn't have to worry about taking the initiative there.

I'm curious how long you knew this ISFp before you had the above-mentioned conversation...?

Oh I knew her for 4 years. There was plenty of time for both of us to open up, but she WANTED it to be shallow pedantry - drinking wine and jumping around to music in fields but never talking about anything seriously. She's doing that with another guy at this moment I'm sure. To be quite honest I can't wait another 4 years for someone else to maybe open up to me.

[Wynch]

Oh I knew her for 4 years. There was plenty of time for both of us to open up, but she WANTED it to be shallow pedantry - drinking wine and jumping around to music in fields but never talking about anything seriously. She's doing that with another guy at this moment I'm sure. To be quite honest I can't wait another 4 years for someone else to maybe open up to me.

*mad hugs*

[calenwen]

Oh I knew her for 4 years. There was plenty of time for both of us to open up, but she WANTED it to be shallow pedantry - drinking wine and jumping around to music in fields but never talking about anything seriously. She's doing that with another guy at this moment I'm sure. To be quite honest I can't wait another 4 years for someone else to maybe open up to me.

Oh wow, okay. Well I'm guessing she wasn't/isn't looking for anything too serious at the time? And personally, I can't open up to anyone unless I am "serious" about them. But like, is that what you're looking for right now? Is that how you feel about this girl?

[tereg]

Well what I really meant is that if you're going to run a marathon it has less to do with persistence and drive and more to do with understanding how to run for a long time. Some people create emotional sprints, others of us are marathons. In a sprint you can see the end in sight and you have to run hard and fast to get there before anyone else. In a marathon if you start too fast you won't make it far enough in the race to even see the end. You'll wonder if you were even racing or if it was worth the amount of energy and effort and persistence it took to get as far as you did. But if you understand how to start slow and recognize when it's time to pick up the pace then you have a way better chance of making it to the finish line.

Oh.

Well in that case I have not learned how to run the marathon then. I'm too much of an emotional sprinter that basically doesn't want to be an emotional sprinter

[calenwen]

Well what I really meant is that if you're going to run a marathon it has less to do with persistence and drive and more to do with understanding how to run for a long time. Some people create emotional sprints, others of us are marathons. In a sprint you can see the end in sight and you have to run hard and fast to get there before anyone else. In a marathon if you start too fast you won't make it far enough in the race to even see the end. You'll wonder if you were even racing or if it was worth the amount of energy and effort and persistence it took to get as far as you did. But if you understand how to start slow and recognize when it's time to pick up the pace then you have a way better chance of making it to the finish line.

This is an awesome analogy.

[Creepy-male]

Haha, and I'm doubly screwed. EJ ftw!

Who knows. Maybe INTjs like freefalling.

[Wynch]

Oh.

Well in that case I have not learned how to run the marathon then. I'm too much of an emotional sprinter that basically doesn't want to be an emotional sprinter

Emotional sprinters scare the bejeesus out of me. Some people are better with emotional sprints, they need that intense flash of emotion from the beginning to get the fire started strong. If I see a fire my automatic reaction is to put it out, lol. I need time to get accustomed to the fire, realize that it's warm and comfortable and cooks my food (lol) so that I'll get closer to it. The intense flash says in my head "DANGEROUS! BURNING". The slow burn builds up into something awesome for me.

So maybe you're still an emotional sprinter, you just need to learn how to control the mad sprinting, the intense burn, until it's time to let loose. The same way I need to not make infinite marathons and put fires out the second I see a flame.

[Banana Pancakes]

Oh wow, okay. Well I'm guessing she wasn't/isn't looking for anything too serious at the time? And personally, I can't open up to anyone unless I am "serious" about them. But like, is that what you're looking for right now? Is that how you feel about this girl?

I want something serious, I've never known her to want anything serious with anyone, but I haven't been around her for a while so I dunno if she's actually "changed" (doubtful).

On the surface she acts like a goofy little ball of nothing that just wants to listen to fun music and have completely shallow relationships with everyone. Underneath she's all brooding and stryfe and thinking her life is a big tragedy, even though her life is fantastic and she has nothing bad in her past.

So she may be part of the problem but I personally have never had a long term relationship. There's a problem there, I'm avoiding something.

[Banana Pancakes]

Emotional sprinters scare the bejeesus out of me. Some people are better with emotional sprints, they need that intense flash of emotion from the beginning to get the fire started strong. If I see a fire my automatic reaction is to put it out, lol. I need time to get accustomed to the fire, realize that it's warm and comfortable and cooks my food (lol) so that I'll get closer to it. The intense flash says in my head "DANGEROUS! BURNING". The slow burn builds up into something awesome for me.

So maybe you're still an emotional sprinter, you just need to learn how to control the mad sprinting, the intense burn, until it's time to let loose. The same way I need to not make infinite marathons and put fires out the second I see a flame.

SEIs are supposed to wait on the crazy emotions until later in the relationship and give it out in small doses I thought?

Sounds like you're uncomfortable with Fe, I have the same problem. I like it but my external response is always "wtf?". Trying to stop that.

[tereg]

Emotional sprinters scare the bejeesus out of me. Some people are better with emotional sprints, they need that intense flash of emotion from the beginning to get the fire started strong. If I see a fire my automatic reaction is to put it out, lol. I need time to get accustomed to the fire, realize that it's warm and comfortable and cooks my food (lol) so that I'll get closer to it. The intense flash says in my head "DANGEROUS! BURNING". The slow burn builds up into something awesome for me.

So maybe you're still an emotional sprinter, you just need to learn how to control the mad sprinting, the intense burn, until it's time to let loose. The same way I need to not make infinite marathons and put fires out the second I see a flame.

Let me put it this way. The one relationship I've been in lasted 4 months, and I still occasionally get painful flashbacks from it. And that was roughly... 5 1/2 years ago. The emotional energy I put into that relationship was probably the energy needed for a typical 2+ year relationship. And of course I feel incredibly stupid about allowing myself to get wrapped up so emotionally in such things. But that is how I handle things in everyday life as well. Very intense interest in something interesting or something that occupies my time followed by complete burnout, maybe depression/inadequacy/unmotivated sorts of feelings. So, I'll just say that I'm not feeling too confident about squelching the urge to sprint out of the blocks whenever the next relationship happens. It's another example of one of those internal fights I have with myself about things I do naturally and things I probably should be doing. Because obviously, I don't want to sprint out fast and flame out. I want to be able to pace myself whatever the interest may be, but I can't really make it happen very well for myself.

[Creepy-male]

Maybe you're Obstinate then, Tereg.

Obstinates value big, strong emotions (which is possibly why Yielding SEIs "artify" what they're feeling, while ESFjs go gung-ho about stuffing you with food or putting a giant LED heart on your roof...). Luckily, your dual is always the same (as is your conflictor).

[Brilliand]

Obstinate/Compliant, as per Model T: ILEs and SEIs (being Compliant) will prefer detailed emotions to strong emotions (my words; Model T calls them low-activation and high-activation, respectively). Model T goes on to say that the ILE will guide the SEI's emotions (due to Constructivist/Emotivist), but I'm not sure how that would manifest.

[Brilliand]

Luckily, your dual is always the same (as is your conflictor).

Oddly, this should make conflict relationships go quite well for a while... at least until the PoLR/base explosion that can only be escaped by physically running away, or by otherwise setting up a buffer so you can't communicate clearly. Even that explosion is enjoyable for the first little while. (I don't know how long it would take, but the base has far more endurance than the PoLR.)

[Creepy-male]

...which is justified under Model A.

Conflictors start with initial attraction.

[Mediator Kam]

Just be yourself.

[Satan]

Oh I knew her for 4 years. There was plenty of time for both of us to open up, but she WANTED it to be shallow pedantry - drinking wine and jumping around to music in fields but never talking about anything seriously. She's doing that with another guy at this moment I'm sure. To be quite honest I can't wait another 4 years for someone else to maybe open up to me.

sounds like a fruit cake.

[Banana Pancakes]

sounds like a fruit cake.

Hey I like when they do that. It was the depression and excessive drinking and not loving me that was the problem.

[Warlord]

Emotionally, I'm this sport:

[Creepy-male]

"Said the 1 to the 4."

Sorry

[Mediator Kam]

Well it's true. If only we didn't feel the need to be something we're not(and I'm not talking about anyone in this thread, I'm pretty much talking more about myself than anyone), we wouldn't feel that we're less of a person when we don't succeed or are incapable of doing something because we would be at peace with who we are as a person.

It is almost like wearing a mask and complaining that no one can see the real you. It's because no one can see your face! Just be yourself, and I think a lot of problems would simply go away.

[Creepy-male]

Well, also,

1) You could've mistyped yourself.
2) If you're a sx subtype in the enneagram, shit's gonna suck if you pair off with a non-sx, since they'll just wtf at the amount of energy you want to put in to the relationship.

[UDP]

Yeah, 4 years for someone to open up to you is way too long. But you shouldn't have waited 4 years to realize that ..... I know it's hard and I sound like a jerk, but i'll say it anyhow.

[ScanDave]

BP I know where you are coming from dude. For many of the same reason you stated too. The difference is I don't let those things phase me.

Kam and Ryu are right. You have to be yourself, instead of acting differently because you are obessed with her. When you are yourself, that is when you can easily figure out what want. Then you are not wasting four years deciding what to do.

Sounds to me your attitude is the problem. I am certain she picked up on it. You attitude is you think she owes you to be open with you, and that she should respect and love you, but you feel slighted because you cannot accept that everything did not go how you thought it out. And it is causing you to complain about it to her. I don't know how long you been like this with her, though the longer you keep this up the less she will respect you and start to resent you.

Understand what she is telling you. She is basically saying she was waiting for you to make a move. You never did, so she thought you were not interested. Now you're getting on her case, four years later, cause some other guy back when had the nuts to do what you couldn't. All of sudden it looks like you can't make up your mind. That is confusing to her. She can't open up to you because she can't trust you. She can't trust you because you are not being yourself around her. Basically, she does not know what your true intentions are because you are giving mixed signals. Let's add that many women have to deal with guys on a daily basis that have poor intentions. In a nutshell, she is not going to depend on you to be there for her, since you have showed you can't make up your mind.

But somehow, through it all, you have reasoned she has xray vision. Somehow she is aware of your problems with your lack intimacy and relationship experience. As if she is looking down on those things. Which is not true because she just told you to stop worrying and enjoy yourself. How could she know you have those problems unless you make an issue of it to her, like you are doing to us now?

I'd say learn to stop being your own worse enemy.

I'm just sayin.

[munenori2]

Two people can be awesome and just not really be right for each other, no matter what they've got going for them. Sometimes things don't work out. We've all got our problems and hangups, sure. I think Kam's got it right in that you shouldn't feel like you have to be anyone other than who you are. People go through life letting so very little of what goes on inside really show to the world. It's easy to be frightened about sharing how you feel, that's understandable, but knowing what holds you back is the first step to pushing past that when it's important, you know?

[Banana Pancakes]

words

I agree with most of what you said, that's pretty good advice. To be clear though, this relationship wasn't one of those situations where I pursued and was obsessed for 4 years, in fact I ignored her a lot longer than I was attracted to her and she suffered unrequited affection as long as I did. There are several elements to the relationship that I didn't get into, including a lot of unhealthy behaviors of hers, a mutual friend who turned the situation into a threesome most of the time, and me generally being an asshole not noticing her soon. By no means do I have her on a pedestal, but her good qualities did outweigh her bad.

This particular relationship is shot and unrecoverable, and I've moved on, but she has brought up an issue in my own life.

Kam and Ryu are right. You have to be yourself, instead of acting differently because you are obessed with her. When you are yourself, that is when you can easily figure out what want. Then you are not wasting four years deciding what to do.

This sort of advice is completely wrong, however. Turn off the lifetime channel. When someone has a problem of not taking action (in my case not establishing intimacy), the solution is not to "be myself". Being myself is to be the same guy who hasn't been able to move past the surface in ANY of my romantic relationships.

Assuming that the whole world is wrong and you just need to "be yourself" is not a legitimate solution. I have a problem with my interaction with the world, and the only way to fix that is to change the one variable I control: me. I've moved on from this particular girl, but her comments have given me enough of a kick in the balls to piss me off and want to prove that I can establish a healthy relationship. That requires action on my part, which is a change from the usual inaction that would occur if I were "being myself".

[Brilliand]

This sort of advice is completely wrong, however. Turn off the lifetime channel. When someone has a problem of not taking action (in my case not establishing intimacy), the solution is not to "be myself". Being myself is to be the same guy who hasn't been able to move past the surface in ANY of my romantic relationships.

Assuming that the whole world is wrong and you just need to "be yourself" is not a legitimate solution. I have a problem with my interaction with the world, and the only way to fix that is to change the one variable I control: me. I've moved on from this particular girl, but her comments have given me enough of a kick in the balls to piss me off and want to prove that I can establish a healthy relationship. That requires action on my part, which is a change from the usual inaction that would occur if I were "being myself".

+1

[Sirena]

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Screw it. I'm going to be a hermit.

I feel more depressed after reading this thread.

me too.

i'm bitter about duality atm, though i'm just bitter in general atm so whatever.