Imitation, personas, acting and typings

[Rocky]

I keep on being reminded that "typing" people... especially celebrities... is often off base. "Personas are only masks...", blah, blah, blah... but it's true. I just realized that Bob Dylan is a great example of fooling people.

I was talking today about Dylan with Rob Stoner. Rob used to be Bob Dylan's band leader (he lives three minutes from my house). So, I started to ask him what it was really like to be around Bob Dylan. First, he started to tell me that Dylan was generally laid back, but enjoyed impressing people by talking like somewhat of a pompous ass. He would talk extravagently. Interesting... but more like a "so what"?

Then I started to ask Rob about Dylan's "solitude", because that's the impression that he likes the public to see him as... he talks about it a lot, etc... As soon as I mentioned Bob Dylan's love for being alone, Rob, without hesitation, spurted out, "He's full of shit!". He claimed that Bob Dylan was, in fact, an attention whore. He claimed that Dylan was only an "actor". He said of Dylan, that, whenever he was around a group of his friends, he would do whatever he could to draw the attention back to him. He was more of like a stuck up baby, wanting everything on him, all eyes on him, etc...

Then there is the identity thing with Dylan. Rob said that, throughtout his musical career, there were, "...at least 10 Dylans". What that means is that, ever so often, Bob Dylan would completely tear down his entire image; his clothes, his music, his personality, etc... for something new. If you remember, this is exactly the attitude of the "Extraverted Intuitive type" in Carl Jung's book. Jung wrote that, the Ne dominants often have trouble finding and sticking with a single identity. He said that their personal appearence was always changing, chasing after ever new possibility and opprtunity without taking the time to soak up what they have right in fromt of him. But Dylan's constant need for change wasn't soley in his appearence, though. He had a similar problem when he would have to play the same song over that he felt was old. He would break down and tear apart the chords to the point where the songs were "unrecognizable until he got to the chorus", according to Rob Stoner (by the way, also keep in mind that "Bob Dylan" isn't his real name... he had it changed). But I thought Introverts had a slowley awakening curiosity to new ways of doing things? They change, for sure, but not all the time.

On top of that, Rob started to tell me how wordy Bob Dylan could be. He said that Dylan would say whatever things popped into his head. Rob said that Dylan was "quick" with his thinking. Introverts thought process can very well be as fast, but the wouldn't show it; their verbal expression is slower.

Anywhere you go look for Bob Dylan's type, they will claim he is one of the Introverted types... does he ever have the public fooled! He's in no way an Introvert... Bob Dylan's an ENTp.


My point was to stop using quick stereotypes, shallow personalities, and the like, to type people whom you don't know well. A person's type often goes deeper than that, and it's more important to understand the workings behind people's brians that drives their type, as oppossed to outward personality.


... and that every celebrity is, in fact, an ENTp. :wink:

[mimisor]

well, I don't know who this Bob Dylan was, interesting...
I agree with what you're saying on the whole, but I'd say some people (celebrities) can fake it, some others can't, it all depends on the person.

[Rocky]

well, I don't know who this Bob Dylan was, interesting...
I agree with what you're saying on the whole, but I'd say some people (celebrities) can fake it, some others can't, it all depends on the person.

... kind of a big celebrity in America...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...-1&q=bob+dylan

[Creepy-]

I agree with you, Rocky.

As for actors, typing the actor themself would be cumbersome and likely innacurate (as you pointed out), but you can probably type the characters they play. In theory. Depending on how deep/consistent/well-written the character is.

[Full House]

Before I find out what kind of personality will make me famous and filthy rich, I'll just say that this "every celebrity is entp" -thing has to be at least 70 % joke, right?

[Rocky]

Not really, pretty much every celebrity in the entertainment/movie/comdy/etc... businesses seem to be ENTp... not everyone, but most.

[mimisor]

Not really, pretty much every celebrity in the entertainment/movie/comdy/etc... businesses seem to be ENTp... not everyone, but most.

Ah, if you refer to movie actors, then yes it's hard to type them, I don't even try I know it's crap, but some singers can actually be typed, because their real person is closer to the public. Actors you only see them in a movie once a year or twice a year depending how many movies they star in, and that's it. Their life behind the scene is hidden. It's different with singers, their actual life is more exposed to the public.

[Gilly]

i mean i'm thinking that it's because they honestly don't give a shit what anyone thinks of them.... ever.

Guess again.

Every extrovert cares what other people think. Every extrovert's hidden agenda has to do with a)something they need from someone else, or b) the opinion they would like others to have of them. ENTp's need attention/positive emotions. You don't get either if people think you're a piece of shit. The "don't give a fuck" attitude is, to be honest, another way of getting positive attention.

they're like... these types of actors/actresses that get casted to play themselves, pretty much. like they don't do the whole entp alter-ego thing, much.

That's just because the world loves their alter-ego so much that they don't need another one.

Before I find out what kind of personality will make me famous and filthy rich, I'll just say that this "every celebrity is entp" -thing has to be at least 70 % joke, right?

Every celebrity either a) is an ENTp or ENFj, or b) puts on a persona like one of the two. Just watch the interviews.

[Gilly]

Guess again.

Every extrovert cares what other people think. Every extrovert's hidden agenda has to do with a)something they need from someone else, or b) the opinion they would like others to have of them. ENTp's need attention/positive emotions. You don't get either if people think you're a piece of shit. The "don't give a fuck" attitude is, to be honest, another way of getting positive attention.

this is different than actually caring what other people think about you/caring if people think you're a hateful bastard/ugly/whatever.

Perhaps, but I'd say it's related to the point that, in the mind of the ENTp (trust me on this one), on a semi-conscious level, they tend to become the same thing.

[Gilly]

it's less blatant.

Obviously: it's a "hidden" agenda for a reason.

[Rick]

Not really, pretty much every celebrity in the entertainment/movie/comdy/etc... businesses seem to be ENTp... not everyone, but most.

Huh????!!!!

I've never heard this before. Maybe this is MBTI "common knowledge"???

I see the same old range of all socionic types in these areas that exists everywhere else.

I personally would say Dylan's a LIE or an EIE.

[Slacker]

I'm sure I've read that a lot of actors are ISTps.

from http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index-type.html

It is his aptitude for hiding emotions under the mask of inapproachability and coldness that makes them finely ‘polished’ and expressive (there are many actors among representatives of this type, e.g. Vladimir Vyssotsky, Adriano Celentano).

Also, ENFjs are called "The Actor" http://www.socionics.com/prof/enfj.htm

[Rocky]

quick type by v.i. etc rocky:


helen hunt

jack nicholson

samuel l. jackson

morgan freeman (kinda)

they're like... these types of actors/actresses that get casted to play themselves, pretty much. like they don't do the whole entp alter-ego thing, much.


not that they're bad at acting (okay i lie i think helen hunt is an awful actress,) just that they have a certain "aura" i guess that makes them work really really well in some roles.

jackson... ENTj... nicholoson... ENTp?

I am the one true Sycophant. Didn't people try to say he was INTp? Eh well I knew that was bullshit. Play a little bit of his music.

Yeah... I thought that for awhile. Kiersey typed him as an ISFP, though... and I've also seen INTJ, INFJ, ect...

Every extrovert cares what other people think. Every extrovert's hidden agenda has to do with a)something they need from someone else, or b) the opinion they would like others to have of them. ENTp's need attention/positive emotions. You don't get either if people think you're a piece of shit. The "don't give a fuck" attitude is, to be honest, another way of getting positive attention.

Oh, I agree. It seems like most people use their hidden agenda like this. They pretend that they don't care about it, and would even make fun of it (more so than they'd do the PoLR), but their actions show that they try to achieve it in a round-a-bout way, i.e., Bob Dylan.

Huh????!!!!

I've never heard this before. Maybe this is MBTI "common knowledge"???

I see the same old range of all socionic types in these areas that exists everywhere else.

I personally would say Dylan's a LIE or an EIE.

Nah... "common knowledge" in MBTI is that the "SPs" (or Sxx types), enjoy the spotlight the most, but I don't buy that. I guess the ILE thing is just my theory...

And you really think Dylan is a rational? I'm sticking by him being an type, ILE. I'm sure of it.

I'm sure I've read that a lot of actors are ISTps.

from http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index-type.html

It is his aptitude for hiding emotions under the mask of inapproachability and coldness that makes them finely ‘polished’ and expressive (there are many actors among representatives of this type, e.g. Vladimir Vyssotsky, Adriano Celentano).

Also, ENFjs are called "The Actor" http://www.socionics.com/prof/enfj.htm

I'm starting to realize that most of those "ISTp actors" probably aren't. Johnny Depp? Maybe... but he's possibally the only one I can think of. Even people who are on there whom I used to think were ISTp, I don't think really are anymore.

And I'm sure there are a few ENFj actors, too... but there seem to be a lot of ENTps. I think, because they are actors, they are good at hidding their true self from the world. That, plus the .

[Rick]

To have a cohesive acting group you've got to have people of many different types. You can't just have a group of "stars" of one type -- there have to be all sorts of different roles and actors that go well together and actors that contrast each other. In this regard movie actors as a group are more characteristic of the general public than theater actors, which seems to definitely attract some types more than others (this has to do with dramatic expression, which is no longer much a part of movie acting, since movies are much more like real life).

If you gather together a group of people of one type -- even a small one (3 or 4 people) -- the demand for other types of information metabolism becomes unbearable. If someone were to come along of any other type, he or she would instantly be sought out to counterbalance all the people of the same type. This is one of the forces that evens out type distribution in all fields of activity.

Actors actually don't have that large a range of what they are able to portray convincingly. Though it may seem like they change their identity all the time, in actuality they're just walking around in circles, playing the same few kinds of characters. Famous actors choose the roles they play and hence pick ones that they feel they can grow into easily and find rewarding. Their choices are strongly related to type and to other dominant inborn traits. Take any actor, for example:
- Arnold Schwarzeneggar
- Angelina Jolie
- Tom Cruise
- Eddie Murphy
- etc.

Some have a slightly wider range than others, but not by much.

[tcaudilllg]

I agree with you, Rocky.

As for actors, typing the actor themself would be cumbersome and likely innacurate (as you pointed out), but you can probably type the characters they play. In theory. Depending on how deep/consistent/well-written the character is.

I've probably typed some 50 characters from videogames thus far... with more on the way.

I've been thinking about making a website to discuss my opinions on type and videogames. Do you think it would be a good idea?

[Expat]

Actors actually don't have that large a range of what they are able to portray convincingly. Though it may seem like they change their identity all the time, in actuality they're just walking around in circles, playing the same few kinds of characters. Famous actors choose the roles they play and hence pick ones that they feel they can grow into easily and find rewarding. Their choices are strongly related to type and to other dominant inborn traits. Take any actor, for example:
- Arnold Schwarzeneggar
- Angelina Jolie
- Tom Cruise
- Eddie Murphy
- etc.

Some have a slightly wider range than others, but not by much.

I agree with that as far as some actors are concerned, that they basically "play themselves". Another good example is Clint Eastwood.

I think Rocky may have a point regarding those few actors who do seem to "become" others and have a very wide range, like the early Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro. Those are probably indeed ENTp.

[Rocky]

I agree, Expat. I remember mentioning those guys on here before, and saying, after I looked in to it more, they were probably actually ENTps. \

Brando is another excellent example of .

[Creepy-pokeball]

I remember discussing in Abnormal Psych the amount of Narcisicism found rampant in actors. Whether or not that is true is anyones guess (btw it wasnt my discussion, someone brought it up).

[Sarah]

Bullshit, prove it. What do you actually know about Dylan?

Reread first post.

I've probably thought about this more than I should have over the past few years. My impressions are based on:

Video footage: Interviews from 1964-2004, Don't Look Back (official release and unreleased footage), the Scorcese documentary, Renaldo & Clara (all 4 hours of it, unfortunately), acting roles in movies like Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid, Masked & Anonymous, and Catchfire, promo videos, and concert bootlegs.

Audio: Radio interviews (like the 1962 Cynthia Gooding interview), comments and dialogue made during concerts that show up on bootlegs (and the officially released live shows), and casual recordings like the Genuine Basement Tapes.

Written: Chronicles Vol.1. Also the collected lyrics---somewhat, since lyrics aren't necessarily telling, but they seem to show evidence of strong Fi.

Accounts: Descriptions of Dylan by Jakob Dylan, Joan Baez, and random band/entourage members.

Concerts: Eight or so when I was up front by the stage. Dylan's expressions are interesting to watch. I have a friend who makes the same expressions, so it was really weird the first time I was in the front row at a concert.

Of course this list doesn't prove anything (except that maybe I'm crazy ), so I will try to find specific examples of things I noticed and post them soon. (It will probably take me a little while.)

I apologize for not having been more specific in my previous post. I read your original post several times. Rob Stoner's comments certainly contradict the public perception of Dylan, but I don't think they contradict his being ISFj. (My ISFj friend is the same way about attention and "acting" in front of people, and I am certain of his type, so it is at least possible.) Your posts are always insightful and well-thought out, and I highly respect your opinion, so when I first read this thread, I thought about it for awhile before replying. I really do feel sure about what I've said, but it is of course fine for us to disagree.

[Sarah]

Of course this list doesn't prove anything (except that maybe I'm crazy ), so I will try to find specific examples of things I noticed and post them soon. (It will probably take me a little while.)

For now, here is an excerpt from an interesting interview. (of course, you could say that this is just the persona he wants to project, but I think it is still good to look at.)

Q: When do you tend to do the most writing? When you're on tour or when you're home for a few weeks?

BOB: I don't know. Some things just come to me in dreams. But I can write a bunch of stuff down after you leave . . . about, say, the way you are dressed. I look at people as ideas. I don't look at them as people. I'm talking about general observation. Whoever I see, I look at them as an idea -- what this person represents. That's the way I see life. I see life as a utilitarian thing. Then you strip things away until you get to the core of what's Important . . . in the larger scheme of things, the government is irrelevant. Everybody, everything can be bought and sold.

Q: Isn't that pretty pessimistic for someone who everyone thought was so optimistic and inspiring in the '60s?

BOB: I'm not sure people understood a lot of what I was writing about. I don't even know if I would understand them if I believed everything that has been written about them by imbeciles who wouldn't know the first thing about writing songs. I've always said the organized media propagated me as something I never pretended to be . . . all this spokesman of conscience thing. A lot of my songs were definitely misinterpreted by people who didn't know any better, and it goes on today.

Q: Give me an example of a song that has been widely misinterpreted.

BOB: Take Masters Of War. Every time I sing it, someone writes that it's an antiwar song. But there's no antiwar sentiment in that song. I'm not a pacifist. I don't think I've ever been one. If you look closely at the song, it's about what Eisenhower was saying about the dangers of the military-industrial complex in this country. I believe strongly in everyone's right to defend< themselves by every means necessary . . . you are affected as a writer and a person by the culture and spirit of the times. I was tuned into it then, I'm tuned into it now. None of us are immune to the spirit of the age. It affects us whether we know it or whether we like it or not.

In the early '90s when I escaped the organized media, they let me be. They considered me irrelevant, which was the best thing that could have happened to me. I was waiting for that. No artist can develop for any length of time in the light of the media, no matter who it is. If the media was commenting on every article you wrote, imagine what it would do to you.

Q: Do you worry, that the latest rash of awards and acclaim will make the media start focusing on you again?

BOB: No, that time has passed. Once they move away and lose track of you, they'll never catch up with you again. They're off searching for someone new to put a label on.

Q: Do you see yourself touring indefinitely?

BOB: I don't see myself doing anything indefinitely. I see myself fulfilling the commitments at the moment. Anything beyond that, time will have to tell.

Q: So, how do you feel personally? Do you feel pretty good about things?

BOB: Any day above the ground is a good day.

Here is the URL: http://www.artsandopinion.com/2005_v4_n1/dylan.htm

[Sarah]

Even I know he's not an ISFJ

Okay. How about we politely agree to disagree and move on to other things.

[Rocky]

You mentioned, "No direction home". Do you remember that, even in that DVD, he talked about the "identity" thing? He said that he felt he had no true connection with his family or where he came from... like he should have been born into a different family (again... name change... he said he felt no roots...). ISFjs are some of the most confident with their identies, whereas ENTps are constantly trying to change/find it.

This goes along with the "Ten Bob Dylans" that I mentioned before; always finding a new style. ISFjs like finding something, and sticking with it. They wish that they could freeze time and keep things as is.

Also, there was more than one person on that DVD who said Dylan gave the apperance of an "actor" when they met him. He would imitate people's voices, styles, mannerisms, etc... much like Marlon Brando... Brando was said to imitate people he just met at a party to entertain them. Dylan, much like Brando, was an actor.

But it doesn't stop there, as it ties in with his ever changing music, enviorments, etc... This is what Carl Jung wrote of the Extraverted Intuitive type:

This attitude has immense dangers -- all too easily the intuitive may squander his life. He spends himself animating men and things, spreading around him an abundance of life -- a life, however, which others live, not he. Were he able to rest with the actual thing, he would gather the fruit of his labours; yet all too soon must he be running after some fresh possibility, quitting his newly planted field, while others reap the harvest. In the end he goes empty away. But when the intuitive lets things reach such a pitch, he also has the unconscious against him. The unconscious of the intuitive has a certain similarity with that of the sensation-type. Thinking and feeling, being relatively repressed, produce infantile and archaic thoughts and feelings in the unconscious, which may be compared [p. 467] with those of the countertype. They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other's mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things. These latter usually command attention in the shape of a sudden entanglement with a most unsuitable woman, or, in the case of a woman, with a thoroughly unsuitable man; and this is simply the result of their unwitting contact with the sphere of archaic sensations. But its consequence is an unconsciously compelling tie to an object of incontestable futility. Such an event is already a compulsive symptom, which is also thoroughly characteristic of this type. In common with the sensation-type, he claims a similar freedom and exemption from all restraint, since he suffers no submission of his decisions to rational judgment, relying entirely upon the perception of chance, possibilities. He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior -- he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type -- only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation. [p. 468]

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

Also, do you remember that, when in college, he never went to class? ISFjs are far more responsible than that. Work must come before play. Dylan was up all night "jamming". Another interesting tidbit was that he stole records and such from people like Woody Guthrie. Are ISFjs prone to break the rules? I would suggest not.


BTW, this sounds ISFj to you?

Q: When do you tend to do the most writing? When you're on tour or when you're home for a few weeks?

BOB: I don't know. Some things just come to me in dreams. But I can write a bunch of stuff down after you leave . . . about, say, the way you are dressed. I look at people as ideas. I don't look at them as people. I'm talking about general observation. Whoever I see, I look at them as an idea -- what this person represents. That's the way I see life. I see life as a utilitarian thing. Then you strip things away until you get to the core of what's Important . . . in the larger scheme of things, the government is irrelevant. Everybody, everything can be bought and sold.

:/

Sounds like dominant intuition to me.



I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[Park]

ISFjs like finding something, and sticking with it. They wish that they could freeze time and keep things as is.

OMG, I wish that, too.

[Nevero]

Then there is the identity thing with Dylan. Rob said that, throughout his musical career, there were, "...at least 10 Dylans". What that means is that, ever so often, Bob Dylan would completely tear down his entire image; his clothes, his music, his personality, etc... for something new. If you remember, this is exactly the attitude of the "Extraverted Intuitive type" in Carl Jung's book. Jung wrote that, the Ne dominants often have trouble finding and sticking with a single identity. He said that their personal appearance was always changing, chasing after ever new possibility and opportunity without taking the time to soak up what they have right in front of him.

i've looked into jung's description of extroverted intuitive type and couldn't find anything about change of personas. he went on at length about seizing opportunities and that Ne favors women enduing them with the ability to grasp at every social opportunity and make all the right social connections in groups, including going after men with open opportunities. nothing on the subject of melding their identities to gain attention.

the one instance of Bob Dylan's approach of personality remakes and attention whoring was included in the enneagram triads:

The Feeling Triad: Types 2, 3, 4.
The three types of the Feeling Triad are primarily concerned with the development of a self-image. They compensate for a lack of deeper connection with the Essential qualities of the heart by erecting a false identity and becoming identified with it. They then present this image to others (as well as to themselves) in the hope that it will attract love, attention, approval, and a sense of value.

[Aylen]

I have no clue about Dylan but I am sure secondhand trash talk gossip is an excellent source of facts when evaluating the way someone experiences the world their motivations and how they process information. Is this connected to that Te thing I hear so much about? I would rather rely on my own experience of someone to jud..err, type them.

That Rob guy seems like a great friend to have though.

Op say's it best:

My point was to stop using quick stereotypes, shallow personalities, and the like, to type people whom you don't know well. A person's type often goes deeper than that, and it's more important to understand the workings behind people's brians that drives their type, as oppossed to outward personality.

Oops... hmmm

[Pookie]

Facts are misleading, but rumors are often revealing.

[Aylen]

Facts are misleading, but rumors are often revealing.