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Thread: Asking/Declaring Reinin Dichotomy (Narrator/Taciturn)

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    Default Asking/Declaring Reinin Dichotomy (Narrator/Taciturn)

    If you're narrator or taciturn, explain what it means for you

    It has obviously an effect on language, on the way we express in speaking, but I'm wondering if it's more than that.
    I often can't find the right words and I need quite a bit of time to phrase my sentences.

    Narrator
    INTP
    ENTJ
    ENFP
    INFJ
    ESFJ
    ISFP
    ESTP
    ISTJ

    Taciturn
    INTJ
    ENTP
    ENFJ
    INFP
    ESFP
    ISFJ
    ESTJ
    ISTP

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    ok, I should have posted this first



    Quote Originally Posted by http://the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=11
    Taciturn

    Taciturn is more inclined to interrogative inflexions. Even his statements sound less categorical as Narrator’s.
    Taciturn is inclined to answer a question with another question. Quite often he starts telling a story with phrases such as " What should I tell you about?.. ". Frequently he asks questions that don’t need to be answered, repeats his question even though he has heard and understood what he was asked about ("Would you like some chips? " - " Who? Me? Yes please."). He oftenly uses questions as a means of keeping up the conversation (may repeat his question to win time for thinking over the answer).
    Taciturn prefers a dialogue in a mode of questions and answers. He always seems to be leading a dialogue with a real interlocutor (" it would be desirable to hear your responce ", " ask me and I shall answer ") or with am imagined one (internal "dialogue"). Even if tacturn’s story was conceived as a monologue it usually will in any case breaks up into fragments (question - answer).
    Taciturn reacts on a question put during his monologue at once – he gives an answer and then returns to the former theme. Being adjusted on a dialogue rather than on an "unanswered" monologue he prefers being asked questions. It’s harder for him than for Narrator to resist the temptation of interrupting the interlocutor with a question.
    Examples: Is there more than one way to do this? Yes (he has completely repeated the question he was asked before giving an answer). "What shall I tell you about? What do you want to know? Yesterday I went to -- " (before answering what he did yesterday he asks some questions that don’t need to be answered to). Members:

    INTJ
    ENTP
    ENFJ
    INFP
    ESFP
    ISFJ
    ESTJ
    ISTP
    Quote Originally Posted by http://the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=12
    Narrator

    Affirmative intonations prevail in Narrator’s speech which may be perceived as confidence or rigidity. Even his questions sound in affirmative tone.
    Narrator tends to ask a question in order to receive (or find) an answer. Unlike Taciturn he rarely answers a question with a question or uses questions without semantic sence as a means of keeping up the conversation.
    Narrator is more adjusted on dialogue in a mode of a monologue - when the interlocutors “speak one after another” (there is an exchange of a series of monologue). Therefore he subconsciously aspires to transform a dialogue intoto a monologue (either in his own, or in a monologue of the interlocutor - by simply listening and not interrupting) – in the end that sounds as a succession of alternating monologues of two interlocutors.
    Narrator may " lose his train of thought " when interrupted in the middle of his monologue, therefore he usually waitsfor the ends of comments to continue speaking. In reply to questions asked while he was speaking he asks to wait for the end of his monologue, and builds the answer into his further monulogue ("wait a minute, I will answer your question"). More tolerant (with more understanding) does he listen to a request not to interrupt and waits for the end of the story, listens to the end and only then asks his question or comments.
    Examples: "When people list all of their numerous interests I do not understand whether they 'talk nonsense' or what? " (the question sounds as a statement).Members:

    INTP
    ENTJ
    ENFP
    INFJ
    ESFJ
    ISFP
    ESTP
    ISTJ
    What do you think ?

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    Examples: "When people list all of their numerous interests I do not understand whether they 'talk nonsense' or what? " (the question sounds as a statement).Members:
    That doesn't sound like something I'd say, however, the tone that it's said in definately applies to me. My questions sound like statements a whole lot, now that I think about it.

    Otherwise, the whole thing (about narrators) basically applies to me.
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    I was thinking wheter, furthermore, narrator means that you have language skills or it is easier for one to express trough language, to compose long essays , while, on the other hand, a taciturn would be more concise in expression. I'm not sure about that.

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    I don't know. I think that the taciturn/narrator dichotomy is not so much about expression of our own thoughts but about how we seek to understand what others are expressing.
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ishysquishy
    Taciturn.

    I have trouble talking about things to people unless they ask questions. I run out of momentum and have no idea where to go next.
    Ditto.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Narrator.

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    Definitely a taciturn here. For instance, it takes me about a half an hour to write a few-sentence post like this one. Even when I have the thoughts I want to express in my mind, I need hours to put them into words. That's why, when there is a chance, I prefer to verbalize my thoughts in my head in advance so I could say(/write) what I mean when needed.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    I am very much a narrator. I can't give basic yes or no answers, I am constantly qualifying them by adding in more information. Also, I find that I get more information from people's stories of what happened to them rather than some final decision they made. In return, I offer people stories about some observation I made, so they could themselves make that observation.
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    In my most primitive mode (pure SiTe) I think I'm taciturn. But the more familiar the topic and more "safe" the environment the more narrator like I become. Also in verbal communication I'm clearly more taciturn than in written communication.

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    Definitely narrator.

    I prefer dialogue as a series of monologues and I do hate being interrupted, and I dislike interrupting others. All the rest fits.

    I think this kind of dichotomy could be useful for settling common typing confusions, such as INTp/INTj etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I think this kind of dichotomy could be useful for settling common typing confusions, such as INTp/INTj etc.
    That's what I explaind a while back, INTps actually talk a lot in a carefree way, while INTjs don't find themselves talking when unnecesary and when they do are very careful with tthe manner of expression. That, along other differencies, of course.

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    I am definitely a narrator, but I do sometimes answer questions with questions.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Default Re: Narrative vs Taciturn

    Quote Originally Posted by soggy-flakes
    What are the telltale signs of each? I've heard of this dichotomy before but don't entirely grasp it.
    Very simplistically, Taciturns (better translated as "Askers" as DL pointed out) have as their natural mode of dialogue the asking of questions, even when they want to make a statement; Narrators (or "Declarers") tend to make statements, even when they ask a question.

    EDIT: those are the clear-cut cases; depending on subtype, lots of people will be somewhere in between.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Bah, I'm not Taciturn. Funny, since I'd think Te types would be more Narrative actually.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Rocky

    And you're right. The peak of Taciturn is the ISTp split. As you "become" more like an INTp as ISTp logical subtype, the Narrative/Taciturn dichotomy blurs and in effect becomes meaningless.

    That is why this dichotomy is only useful if people are very clearly recognizable as one or the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    The thought of being more INTP scares me though.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    The thought of being more INTP scares me though.
    Interesting. Does that mean that Rocky and I are more alike than two typical ISTps and INTps? I'm still not sure of my subtype, if there really are such creatures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    The thought of being more INTP scares me though.

    What do you want to be? Dont answer and dont think of type This helps me anyways...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    The thought of being more INTP scares me though.
    Interesting. Does that mean that Rocky and I are more alike than two typical ISTps and INTps? I'm still not sure of my subtype, if there really are such creatures.
    Ahh... do you mean that you don't want to be more INTP, or you don't want to be more ISTP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    The thought of being more INTP scares me though.

    What do you want to be? Dont answer and dont think of type This helps me anyways...
    I just remembered something else. I think initially that the thought of being my mother's type (INFj) was scary because one never wants to be their parent(s). So I wonder if Ive actively fought against the idea of it.

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    Hmm... that may apply to me as well (somewhat). A couple days ago my sister was saying how she really thought I was my dad's son. Little brat. There's actually a lot of behavior that I try not to be like. Besides, the two of us (my INTP dad and myself), definately have different thought processes, and generally have different focuses. But I'd bet my sister could see the Te/ poor Fe thing in us anyway. That may be why poor Fe in people pisses me off, even though I have poor Fe myself. I just don't want people to view me like that.

    /end tangent.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Ahh... do you mean that you don't want to be more INTP, or you don't want to be more ISTP?
    No. I just want to know the truth, and hopefully understand our differences and similarities better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    one never wants to be their parent(s)..
    Uh, why?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Ahh... do you mean that you don't want to be more INTP, or you don't want to be more ISTP?
    No. I just want to know the truth, and hopefully understand our differences and similarities better.
    Similarities and differences? That's easy...

    ISTPs and INTPs are similar in that both of us spend the majority of time reflecting on objectively collected, factual data (Te). Personally, I still think we have a need to understand (logically) the problems that arise, even though that's what the MBTI would consider Ti. I think that they're wrong of course, since IMO Introverts always reflect more on what they get out of their second function (you can see this because Extraverts always act based on what their inner values tell them). With Te, we also believe that the "facts" cannot be reinterpreted, only reflected upon and combined with each other. We also believe that the world isn't neccesarily "rational", in that we can't really predict what everything will do based on logical "systems", so we try and evalutate things more on how they end up working instead. Then of course there is the problem with poor Fe (not being able to respond well when people try and get an emotional response out of us, maybe even lashing back in a verbally harsh way, stuff like that). And yes, we of course both view the world from a more dynamic perspective (and I still think that this one is important).

    As for the differences? I see Si and Ni leading to completely different behavioral and thought process patterns (of course not gonna explain all of them right now). We also generally "flock" to different places (such as, an INTP is more likely to learn from books and such, and ISTPs are generally thought of as more street-smart).

    Stuff like that.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    The thought of being more INTP scares me though.
    i once suggested that i think you're really an intp and remember you mentioning sth about intps being the most pathetic of all types

    you do, occacionally, come accross as an intp - at least to me you do. i guess i have underestimated subtypes so far...hence the wrong typing on my part.

    there's an interesting addition on this topic (narrator/taciturn) on the Si thread in delta.

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    @Rocky

    It is really interesting for me to read an ISTp's view on the differences and similarities between the two IXTp types. I can relate to every part of your description.

    I definitely agree with you that we have a need to understand logically the problems that arise. That this is so often associated only with Ti ( ) is one of the small things that I have been dissatisfied with, because I suspect that it might lead some people to mistypings. What do you think about that aspect? Are the descriptions of Te ( ) inaccurate, or do you want to explain that need for logical clarity in some other way?

    You also mention that "Extraverts always act based on what their inner values tell them". I think that I can see what you mean when I think of real life extraverts, but I haven't thought about it in that way before.

    As for our differences, to say that an INTp is more likely to learn from books is almost an understatement -- at least in my case ...


    @he died with a felafel

    i once suggested that i think you're really an intp and remember you mentioning sth about intps being the most pathetic of all types
    Rocky could be right about that. In many ways we INTps proably are the most pathetic of all types.

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    WHAT IS THIS????????

    Quote Originally Posted by hot-dog
    Attention! The given forum renders clumsy assistance to distribution of the C.G.Jung personality theory, MBTI and Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    The thought of being more INTP scares me though.
    i once suggested that i think you're really an intp and remember you mentioning sth about intps being the most pathetic of all types
    Hmm... that was you... wait, does that mean that you don't want me as your dual?

    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus
    What do you think about that aspect?
    I already talked about it in my last post in this thread. I think it's a rollover from the MBTI. They claim that IxTPs are Ti, because IxTPs spend a lot of their time thinking about logical stuctures and facts and so on. This is true, but it's not Ti- it's a second function of Te (this is what I meant when Introverts reflect more on their second function than anything else). Let's put it this way- there's a difference between "what" you focus on, and "how" you focus on it. IxTPs focus on the same "what" (objectively collected Te data). The "how" is the different part, this is where ISTP is similar to ISFP, and INTP is similar to INFP (and IxFPs of course reflect mostly on Fe data). And examples of Extraverted types could be the differnce between ESFP and ESTP. They both act on, or express themselves, through Se; however, what drives them differs (Ti/Fi). ESFP (like ENFP) doesn't do things that conflict with their inner moral values, whereas ESTP (and yes ENTP) usually give little focus to that, and express themselves more on what their logical minds tell them. So this is why you can see both ENFP and ESFP are generally driven to people, helping people, and so on, yet they are not Extraverted Feeling, and why you can also see both ISTP and INTP spending time reflecting on and trying to understand the "factual" data, yet they are not Introverted Thinking. Personally, I think ISTPs can reflect more on Te data than Se data. ISTJ, on the other hand, has a more systematic, rational, and categorial thought process, yet they are the ones who "classify" a lot of stuff they can get from Se (and INTJs systematize Ne stuff).

    And this is why I think some people using the MBTI confuse themselves. Are we good?

    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus
    Rocky could be right about that. In many ways we INTps proably are the most pathetic of all types.
    Umm... I'm pretty sure I was kidding when I said that. My point was (just like in this thread) is that I wouldn't want to be confused with any other type, and I don't expect anyone else to want to be my type either.

    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus
    As for our differences, to say that an INTp is more likely to learn from books is almost an understatement -- at least in my case ...
    Yeah, I agree, but like I said I wasn't going to describe all of the Si/Ni differences. If you're looking for that, I would start with Jung's Psychological Types. At least for Si, I know that's the best description I have ever read. I think the reason his stuff is so good is because he took more of a "real" psychological and empirical approach in trying to know what's "inside the mind" and stuff, compared to what we (everything from the MBTI through socionics) have reduced to a pathetic pop-psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
    you do, occacionally, come accross as an intp - at least to me you do. i guess i have underestimated subtypes so far...hence the wrong typing on my part.
    Ahh... I can assure you that I am ISTP. Whatever may sound like INTP, I can say that I am at least sure that I was born with no Ni. If anything, I've grown into it. Besides, what can you really tell from over the internet? Both IxTPs have Te, but where do you differentiate Ni and Si? Either way, you guys certainly can't know my whole personality from here.


    I think I need a break from you guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    And this is why I think some people using the MBTI confuse themselves. Are we good?
    You are probably right. But my point was that I think that some people who read socionic descriptions of and might mistype themselves. I know that I have done exactly that, and you have seen for example Jonathan having had the same problem with finding his socionic type. There is definitely a problem for INTps, who very easily might think that they are INTjs based on the aspects of the socinic descriptions of the functions that we have been talking about.

    When you read MBTI descriptions of INTPs you can relate to them because they accentuate that need for logical clarity, whereas when you read socionic descriptions of INTps that aspect is often depreciated. I believe that it is much easier for people to determine what they are thinking about than how they are thinking about it.

    So, I really think that it might be easier for many INTps to see that they are INTPs than it is for them to see that they are INTps. I'm pretty sure that there are still one or two INTps on this forum who believe that they are INTjs.

    phaedrus wrote:
    Rocky could be right about that. In many ways we INTps proably are the most pathetic of all types.
    Umm... I'm pretty sure I was kidding when I said that.
    But I am not capable of kidding because I am an INTp. (And I really think that there is grain of truth in your statement. :wink: )

    Yeah, I agree, but like I said I wasn't going to describe all of the Si/Ni differences. If you're looking for that, I would start with Jung's Psychological Types. At least for Si, I know that's the best description I have ever read.
    I have read his descriptions many times, and I will do it again. But an ISFj, whom I have known for many years, still can't decide whether she relates more to Jung's description of Si or more to his description of Fi. I couldn't do it either, but I was surprised that she couldn't do it. And when I really tried to compare his descriptions of Si and Fi, I realized that it really was difficult for an outside observer like me to decide which it was in her case.

    And, based on Jung's descriptions of Ti and Ni, I have thought that I am a Ti-dominant type. I still have problems with his description of Ni. Maybe the explanation of that is that Jung himself was a Ti-dominant INTj like Sergei Ganin. And you know how I and niffweed17 think about his article about the differences between INTjs and INTps, don't you?

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    Oh yes;

    1) Jung's Ni description is the worst (IMO) of all of the eight functions.

    2) I don't like Ganin's article either.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Oh yes;

    1) Jung's Ni description is the worst (IMO) of all of the eight functions.
    I barely remember (I read it eons ago) that it inferred that Ni was alien-ish *looks for the alien emoticon*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky

    Hmm... that was you... wait, does that mean that you don't want me as your dual?
    oh love, not sure i'm your dual after all


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    Default Taciturn vs. Narrator

    I'm definitely more of a Narrator. Which do you think you are? Can you think of any good examples of each type among forum members? Quoting posts as examples would be useful.

    http://the16types.info/groups.php?groupsid=3
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    I'm clearly a Narrator (or "Declarer") IRL -- no one who knows me would have any doubt about it.

    I'm not sure if writing styles in a forum show this dichotomy though.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I think the dichotomy should be written in a more clear way. I find it to be very muddled and ambiguous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I'm not sure if writing styles in a forum show this dichotomy though.
    I thought of that as well.

    I think my use of the narrator style is the reason the INTj I was with said that he's confused about why I could have confused myself for a perceiver
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    Taciturn and Narrator are the two ends of the spectrum. We all fall somewhere in between, generally more to one end than the other. Someone who is totally one or the other would be really annoying.
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