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Thread: Non-Beta Dictators?

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    Default Non-Beta Dictators?

    Seems like every dictator is Beta. I challenge someone to come up with a non-Beta dictator.

    For extra points, think of a non-Ni/Se dictator (I'd be really interested to see what people come up with for this one).
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Was was the name of that SLE-looking SLI guy Expat used to talk about?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Augustus
    Pinochet
    Franco
    Salazar (maybe)
    What types do you think they were?

    A number of non-betas who inherited kingdoms and empires and ruled with an iron fist cause that was how to do it back then.
    Such as...?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Fidel Castro. ESFj(according to Talanov).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    Fidel Castro. ESFj(according to Talanov).
    From what I know of Castro, I sincerely doubt it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    How about the US government? Seems very Delta to me, which, of course, means that they need to get out of my quadra.

    But, of course, by "dictator", I'm sure you mean "the head of some coercive organization who didn't have to ask the rest of the organization permission before he did something".

    I'll agree with jxrtes on Augustus, I think (though my knowledge of him is a bit limited).
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Augustus is clearly LIE.
    Yeah, I think most would agree with that.

    Such as 3/4 of anyone who's ever inherited a kingdom or an empire from their parents, pending the level of veracity of the equal distribution assumption. A kingdom is a sort of dictatorship depending on who you ask.
    Okay, but I mean dictatorship in the general sense of the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    But, of course, by "dictator", I'm sure you mean "the head of some coercive organization who didn't have to ask the rest of the organization permission before he did something".
    Essentially, yes. Although, Hitler initially used legit means. It was only when he gained power that he began to close off the very entity/entities that secured him power in the first place.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Essentially, yes. Although, Hitler initially used legit means. It was only when he gained power that he began to close off the very entity/entities that secured him power in the first place.
    Any sort of government cannot be morally, and only maintains it's power through coercive means, which is "illegitimate" if you want to colloquially use "legitimate" as "with correctness", rather than "according to law", which is entirely arbitrary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Any sort of government cannot be morally, and only maintains it's power through coercive means, which is "illegitimate" if you want to colloquially use "legitimate" as "with correctness", rather than "according to law", which is entirely arbitrary.
    What about the evolution of intersubjective thought about the state - it wasn't a case of "yesterday we were free, and now the state has stepped in and taken our freedom by force". There are social contracts; people agree to exchanges, and those who cannot protect themselves offer something in return for protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Your question is too general. Plenty of kings and emperors of all types wielded extreme powers over the lives of others by modern standards. If you can't classify them as dictators, then you'd have to give me more specific criteria.

    I think you mean people who were ruthless in securing more power for themselves and wielded it not necessarily to the benefit of their subjects.

    In that case, one example is King Leopold II of Belgium (ILE) under whose sole administration the Congo was brutally colonized and stripped of its resources. Another is Robespierre (LII) who began the reign of terror in France. Neither of these necessarily needed to have had a very combattive or aquisitive beta ST mindset, but their actions and beliefs resulted in some form of dictatorship, slaughter or oppression.

    Others: Francisco Franco was an extremely cruel, brutal and underhanded leader. Expat types both him and Pinochet as SEI, I've got to confirm this though.

    Khruschev is universally typed SEI by professional socionists. Julius Caesar and Brezhnev (IIRC) as SEE.
    Fair point. I s'pose the question is too open-ended.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    I went through a list of 34 worst dictators in the sense that Ezra means, and couldn't find any that I could make strong case of not being beta.

    But here's some I'm slightly suspicious about:

    Fracois Duvalier, although he might be LSI


    Enver Hoxha


    Antonio de Oliveira Salazar


    I might have just as well had typed the entire list though.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Augustus
    Pinochet
    Franco
    Salazar (maybe)

    A number of non-betas who inherited kingdoms and empires and ruled with an iron fist cause that was how to do it back then.
    franco isfp?
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    franco isfp?
    If so, I'm Donald Duck.

    ISFj , no doubt.

    Base he made good deals with the American government, in spite of the background. Conservative views, supported religion.

    Creative ask the old Spanish people.

    Intertype relations: in WWII, Spain and Germany were about to make an alliance, but all this fell apart when Hitler (ENTp) met Franco (ISFj). All the Spaniards know that Hitler said Franco was "unpleasant" and he didn't want to see him again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    If so, I'm Donald Duck.

    ISFj , no doubt.

    Base he made good deals with the American government, in spite of the background. Conservative views, supported religion.

    Creative ask the old Spanish people.

    Intertype relations: in WWII, Spain and Germany were about to make an alliance, but all this fell apart when Hitler (ENTp) met Franco (ISFj). All the Spaniards know that Hitler said Franco was "unpleasant" and he didn't want to see him again.
    what are you interpreting as cre-Se?
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    what are you interpreting as cre-Se?
    To me, creative is about going to the gym, being ruthless, killing people to accomplish your goals...that sort of thing.

    Por cierto, no sé si estás al tanto de lo que pasa por aquí por la península ibérica o si te importa o no. Hace unos meses echaron por la tele este documental sobre una hipotética victoria de la república en la guerra civil. Si te gusta culturizarte...

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    Why does ezra keep on putting words in italian/spanish/portuguese in his avatar?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why does ezra keep on putting words in italian/spanish/portuguese in his avatar?
    because he thinks he is al capone/mussolini/other "gangster" or "criminal" stereotype of italian descent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    because he thinks he is al capone/mussolini/other "gangster" or "criminal" stereotype of italian descent.
    LOL!
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    1)
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    2)
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    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    because he thinks he is al capone/mussolini/other "gangster" or "criminal" stereotype of italian descent.
    Yeah, that's what is really going on. Who's gonna think Ezra is learning a second language, or he is just trying to be original?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Yeah, that's what is really going on. Who's gonna think Ezra is learning a second language, or he is just trying to be original?
    well, "yo quiero taco bell," or putting an -ismo! on the end of a word hardly counts as "learning spanish."
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    I think he's being silly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    What about the evolution of intersubjective thought about the state - it wasn't a case of "yesterday we were free, and now the state has stepped in and taken our freedom by force". There are social contracts; people agree to exchanges, and those who cannot protect themselves offer something in return for protection.

    Oh well of course, the state emerged naturally.

    like religion and AIDs.

    Just because it came about over time doesn't make it desirable.


    and I've made the case before that the state was carried with us from our pre-human days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    well, "yo quiero taco bell," or putting an -ismo! on the end of a word hardly counts as "learning spanish."
    ¡Por algo se empieza, María!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Intertype relations: in WWII, Spain and Germany were about to make an alliance, but all this fell apart when Hitler (ENTp) met Franco (ISFj). All the Spaniards know that Hitler said Franco was "unpleasant" and he didn't want to see him again.
    I'll try and be serious here. You actually believe Hitler is an ILE?

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why does ezra keep on putting words in italian/spanish/portuguese in his avatar?
    I remember seeing some amusing Italian fascist-era propaganda posters at college once; it's a kind of tribute to that. Obviously the idea of capitalist and terrorist propaganda is a bit odd, but it's following in line with the rest. Plus, it's more interesting than just having "capitalism", "communism" etc.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I remember seeing some amusing Italian fascist-era propaganda posters at college once; it's a kind of tribute to that. Obviously the idea of capitalist and terrorist propaganda is a bit odd, but it's following in line with the rest. Plus, it's more interesting than just having "capitalism", "communism" etc.
    But you know you are a complete moron for celebrating this. So many people died due to ideological idiocy during the fascist period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I'll try and be serious here. You actually believe Hitler is an ILE?
    Actually, there was a very long old thread in this site which described thoroughly Hitler's personality. Look for it. I think some user called "curious soul" wrote it. After reading it, it was clear to me that he was ILE.

    But I think old threads were lost after some problems in the site...
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    i am basically sold on hitler as Ni ENFj 6w5 so/sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Actually, there was a very long old thread in this site which described thoroughly Hitler's personality. Look for it. I think some user called "curious soul" wrote it. After reading it, it was clear to me that he was ILE.

    But I think old threads were lost after some problems in the site...
    Rick made quite a good argument for ENFj (as I recall, he left it half-finished as ExFj, but it was easy to guess ENFj>ESFj).



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    Whatever type Hitler was, he shouldn't be supplied as a typical example of any type, IMO. Pathological committers of genocide just don't qualify for such treatment.
    Last edited by krieger; 03-08-2009 at 10:13 PM.

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    Are there any INFp dictators?
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    But you know you are a complete moron for celebrating this. So many people died due to ideological idiocy during the fascist period.
    BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Actually, there was a very long old thread in this site which described thoroughly Hitler's personality. Look for it. I think some user called "curious soul" wrote it. After reading it, it was clear to me that he was ILE.

    But I think old threads were lost after some problems in the site...
    I don't care for that. I've gained enough insight into his character through reading about him, and it's quite clear that he's not an ILE. You're the first person I've encountered who has claimed Hitler to be an ILE, and I have little intellectual respect for this "curious soul" character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean View Post
    Are there any INFp dictators?
    Some cite Robert Mugabe as an IEI.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I challenge someone to come up with a non-Beta dictator.
    While some dictators worked methodically for much of their life to attain the position, others kind of "stumbled" into becoming dictators, or were more or less appointed by others.

    Among those accidental dictators I'd put Oliver Cromwell, who I guess-type as a gamma.

    Also, many of the old Eastern European Communist dictators seem to have been put in place by the Russian Communist Party. The selection process I guess would probably not favor Betas more than Communist minions from other quadras.
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    Osama bin laden is INFp
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    But you know you are a complete moron for celebrating this. So many people died due to ideological idiocy during the fascist period.
    yeah, that goes over as well as a holocaust joke.
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    Yeah i doubt he's supporting those regimes.

    I think its kinda like a fucking joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    yeah, that goes over as well as a holocaust joke.
    It's not right to joke about the holocaust. I lost a grandfather during it.

    He fell off a guard tower.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Yeah i doubt he's supporting those regimes.

    I think its kinda like a fucking joke.
    Bingo.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Seems like every dictator is Beta. I challenge someone to come up with a non-Beta dictator.

    For extra points, think of a non-Ni/Se dictator (I'd be really interested to see what people come up with for this one).

    there seems to be a lot of misconception about this very thing on the forum. I dont see what beta in itself has to do with dictatorship.
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    i am basically sold on hitler as Ni ENFj 6w5 so/sx
    After having read about him in Rommel's biography, I'm thinking 3w4. He's one or the other though.

    Quote Originally Posted by kensi View Post
    there seems to be a lot of misconception about this very thing on the forum. I dont see what beta in itself has to do with dictatorship.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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