Identical relations: INFj and INFj

[Creepy-pokeball]

then what? Any ideas on the possibilities of their relationship based on this theory we's gots heres?

[Rick]

Egad. Not a pretty sight. I know a few of these relationships. My summary would be that partners tend to "dry up" emotionally and psychologically and quickly adopt a depressing (and incorrect!) outlook on life with the following characteristics (specifically the type you're talking about):

1. "Life is hard and cruel, but this is my fate and my duty to mankind"
2. Despite the difficult and unfulfilling relationship, partners have great difficultly leaving each other and feel duty-bound (especially if they have children).
3. "It's poor little us in a lonely, difficult world, and only by sticking together and supporting each other can we make it"
4. Partners harp on each other's consciences all the time, constantly appealing to each other's "moral responsibility" to do certain things
5. The family "closes in on itself," repelling potential friends who might be able to lighten the atmosphere.

Basically, relationships of identity in marriage are psychologically crippling and offer no meaningful psychological support whatsoever.

[Topaz]

Wow! That sounds just like a couple I know. Im sure the husband is INFJ but I dont know the wife too well, but she is very reserved. The husbands mother tells me they are "just alike" so she might be INFJ as well. They closed themselves off and sort of disappeared. I personally would suffocate. Are you INFJ Rick?

[Rick]

No, I'm IEE (I'm sticking to the socionics abbreviations -- sorry. But I have known a lot of EII's.

[Rick]

I've had a chance to study two such relationships (with EIIs) in the real world. One family has two grown children, also both EIIs. The daughter was able to get out of the hole through some decent relationships, including a dual relationship that shook her out of her sleep a bit. The rest of the family is a pretty sorry bunch, though -- sort of a mire of moralizing torture (I'm probably making it sound a bit worse than it is). They are all sort of "withered up." Just being friends with someone of the same type is different, though

Karl Marx said, "It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness. . . ." (had to look that up ) I really believe in that. It's very hard to see beyond the box defined by one's relationships; one's brain chemistry and overall outlook is defined so much by the types in close proximity.

[Arcanum]

To tell you the truth, I don't like talking about how people can't get along, that's why I haven't posted anything here .

[Creepy-pokeball]

I dont blame you Arcanum. In fact, this is not what I had in mind. I was thinking of my friend on the way home from class and I thought of the subject. And THIS is not how narrow I thought people would take it.

[Arcanum]

I dont blame you Arcanum. In fact, this is not what I had in mind. I was thinking of my friend on the way home from class and I thought of the subject. And THIS is not how narrow I thought people would take it.

I knew you meant something else other than a technical analysis of the relationship. Either way, I can't comment because I haven't really "met" any other infjs.

[science as magic]

I could see two infjs having a very very close and nuturing relationship but they would need to be in a very extraverted environment imo. There is a lot of force that pulls them into the negative behaviors Rick noted but if enough energy was pounding the system I could definitely see it work.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Hmmm, possible. I could see how a small handful of extroverted influences would be really helpful.

[science as magic]

I was thinking more like an extraverted situation rather than merely extraverted people popping in once in awhile stirring things up and leaving. I think that would lead to a form of temptation to go seek it out for yourself for one or both partners. Rather what I was reffering to would be something like living in a place with more than x people per square mile where x is sufficient so that your interaction with your marital partner/family is limited to about 40% of total interaction (maybe less for infjs). That way there is significant pressure TO seek one another out for relaxation and enjoyment rather than becoming stagnant with one another. Extraverts in my opinion need a much lower X than introverts in order to achieve balance and would get a lot more out of living in a location where interaction is lower than their own mental process is at least for a time so they learn how to evaluate things "subjectively."

[Creepy-pokeball]

That is difficult to judge because people have strong preferences for living in certain areas. For example, I want to end up in a home in the country but near the city. I talked to a girl last night that works in the inner city all week and hates it but would love the same scenario as me (you can tell that we are both from rural areas in the convo.)

So I guess, as loose as it is, which preference is stronger? ... personally inner city life stresses me greatly yet I always know that I'll have an abundace of outlets (friends, societies, work, fun time). Im not so sure that it is always type related to isolate oneself. Wasnt it Megan that travels a lot? I think...

[science as magic]

I agree that it is stressful. It is like moving to a new country and having to acclimate to the weather and food and such but harder because we don't have as many terms to describe the effect that the locale has on us so we remain unaware of how it is influenceing us. It is harder to speed up the acclimation process in such a scenario because you cannot respond to something that you are not aware of. I wouldn't say it is easy or pleasureable or even necessary just like basic training in the military isn't for most people but it makes you "grow.'

[Rick]

I was thinking more like an extraverted situation rather than merely extraverted people popping in once in awhile stirring things up and leaving.

I totally agree. Part of the sadness of modern western civilization is that people almost always separate off into pairs and hole up in their houses, reducing close interaction with people other than their spouses. I think this exacerbates the role of intertype relations in marriage compared to the tribal days where the whole tribe lived together, more or less, but couples separated into huts for the night. Then during the day, men would often go and do 'men' stuff, while women would do their 'women' stuff. In this kind of scenario I don't see how two EII's could fall into the pit I described, other than simply bickering more than is necessary.

I agree with Pedro's 40% (is that from the 'golden proportion?'). However, my experience says that identity partners are actually psychologically interested in being with each other much less than that (well, once the infatuation stage is over). I think what keeps the EII's together is this sense of moral duty.

[science as magic]

I am actually drawn to that even though I know that if I were to experience it I would not enjoy it and be miserable.

[Tepa]

I was thinking more like an extraverted situation rather than merely extraverted people popping in once in awhile stirring things up and leaving.

I totally agree. Part of the sadness of modern western civilization is that people almost always separate off into pairs and hole up in their houses, reducing close interaction with people other than their spouses. I think this exacerbates the role of intertype relations in marriage compared to the tribal days where the whole tribe lived together, more or less, but couples separated into huts for the night. Then during the day, men would often go and do 'men' stuff, while women would do their 'women' stuff. In this kind of scenario I don't see how two EII's could fall into the pit I described, other than simply bickering more than is necessary.

The lack of community is very painful and something I rather long for but doubt I'll ever find. Heh.

I become markedly more withdrawn when I live in cities, the larger they are, the more obvious, and it gets worse over time. I become less withdrawn, more open, comfortable and confident, when I live in smaller places like villages and small towns, and I seek out other people/groups in a way that I never do when I live in a city. It's not possible for me to move right now, but when I can I will.

I guess my point (apart from the fact that I don't think we were meant to live in cities :wink was that what seems like it would be an extraverted situation might not always be (helpful)depending on the person... it might be the opposite. In most cases it's probably not as obvious as people might think. People might need help figuring out what sort of situations would be helpful for them, and, perhaps, especially that they actually need to put themselves in situations where they interact with more people regularly.

I think what keeps the EII's together is this sense of moral duty.

You say that like it's bad... most people don't have a strong enough sense of moral duty, or so it seems, so some people have to make up for that

[science as magic]

Believe me I am the same way but I think you crash and burn after awhile and then you begin to be comfortable with the whole thing. That or you become the crazy old hermit who chops up dogs bodies and digs up women from the grave to have sex with.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I just realized how many things my brother and I encourage my mom to do (she is INFj, single, retired). Dog walking. Socializing. Volunteering. Outdoor work. etc. That is partially my fault though because I refused to let her be a hermit and rot away (I showed her lots of stats/theories and stuff from Gerentology) and I got my brother to help. ALthough sometimes she becomes bull-headed and tries to do stupid things on her own with no one there. Like one day she decided that she coould take it upon herself to sweep off her roof. She told my brother and I later that week. We, of course, lectured her on trying to kill herself from being so bull-headed as to not wait 1 week for either of us to drive over and do it haha. Sigh, parents

[Topaz]

Once I met an INFJ family. Well I dont know if they were all infj but at least the brother and sister were and the other sibling was probably xNFP. The mom and dad had passed away and left their grown children with the house. None of them were married at that point and I dont know if they will. They all just lived there like that movie Accidental Tourist (If you havent seen it you must) I came by to visit with friends for some reason, I cant remember why but anyway the moment I walked in the door I knew them. It was like we all knew each other very quickly. One of the sisters especially got a kick out of me and suddenly I was saying all sorts of crazy things just to watch her reaction. We spent an afternoon just talking about all kinds of stuff. I felt like an exotic visitor to their quiet lives, shaking things up. Anyway, that was it and I never saw them again. I still remember the experience and how it felt even though it was almost 12 or 13 years ago. I would love to see them again but they live somewhere in NY and I am in Cal now. I cant remember their names Thats a shame because we were like strange kindred spirits.